Vayne's True Motive??? Help me on this one. (SPOILERS)

[Locke4God]

Short and Sweet, I don't think I get it,, or maybe I do and it's more simple than I think it should be.


Bascially he was after world domination like most villians, but, he had also discovered the influence of the gods, and wanted what our heroes wanted, which was to break humanity from that influence?

[loaf]

He is being used by Vanet. Vanet wants the Humans to be free without the control of the Occuria or something like that.

That's all I can remember.

[Zargabaath]

I disagree that he is being used by Venat, though there is a theory out there that I've read stating that Venat wanted to wrest control from Gerun and the other Occuria.

In the Pharos Lighthouse when Balthier makes the comment that he [Dr. Cid] is being used by Venat, Cid replies, "How quaint. We are allies". Venat wants the world to be free of control from Giruvegan (i.e., the Occuria), so too does Dr. Cid and Vayne want this as well. To be their own masters, to have "history back in the reins of man" as Cid often said. Each one: Vayne, Venat, & Dr. Cid were a bit different. Venat just wanted mankind to be free of the Occuria. Dr. Cid wanted to become a "god" -

Balthier: You made your Nethicite for this. You mimic the Occuria's stone for what? To become a god yourself?

Dr. Cid: On whose shoulders better to stand than the would-be gods! -

(Some good dialogue).

Vayne wanted to become the new Dynast King, in his eyes a true Dynast King, to bring peace for the world under his rule, to free mankind from the tyranny of the occuria so that they are no longer puppets.

In the end only one of these three accomplish their goal(s) - Venat. After Vayne Novus has been defeated...

Vayne: Venat! I have failed us both. I am no Dynast-King. You must find another. One who might realize your ambitions.

Venat: They are fulfilled beyond your knowing. The Cryst is sundered, age of
Stones complete. From the undying ones the world is freed. You shall not tread this path alone. Together we go. Come.

What Vayne says is quite unique in respect to Final Fantasy villains as he does not see himself worthy, he is humble with that statement instead of being "vain" and taking the whole world or everyone in the battle with him.

What Venat says is even more unique and a first for Final Fantasy villains. Venat walking down the path of death along with her ally. The final battle between the party vs. The Undying - the party is supposed to win for Vayne & Venat to walk the path together. In past FFs the villains went into the final battle believing they would win. Vayne and Venat go into the final battle to die.

[Locke4God]

Good stuff.

I don't know why I didn't reply sooner, but thank you.

I wonder though, why exactly did the stones themselves allow the occuria to control man? I know the stones are powerful, but I didn't catch when and where the occuria influenced anything anyway.

Also, what exactly was so important about Raithwall? Did he know about the gods? Did he support or oppose the gods?

I just missed some key elements maybe.

[Zargabaath]

Good stuff.

I don't know why I didn't reply sooner, but thank you.

I wonder though, why exactly did the stones themselves allow the occuria to control man? I know the stones are powerful, but I didn't catch when and where the occuria influenced anything anyway.

Also, what exactly was so important about Raithwall? Did he know about the gods? Did he support or oppose the gods?

I just missed some key elements maybe.

The stones didn't posses mind controlling abilities. The Occuria approached the Garif first but they did not know how to use the stone. The Occuria then went to a hume, Raithwall, because they judged him to be the best to unify all of Ivalice. Raithwall knew how to use the stones' power.

Raithwall was Ashe's ancestor who formed the Galtean Alliance which pretty much covered the whole map of Final Fantasy XII. During his reign, Archadia and Rozzaria were just city-states. Two houses were born of Raithwall's lineage after the reign to Raithwall's direct descendants, House Galtea, drew to a close: House Nabradia and House Dalmasca. He knew about the gods, the nethicite, the sun-cryst, etc because the gods appeared to him with a mission. He supported the gods actions because with their stones he unified all of Ivalice and a Golden Age was born where peace reigned till House Galtea was no more, which lasted 400 years.

[Locke4God]

Ok,, interesting I got that. Good stuff. thank you!

Questions though. Why was it so important to end the god's influence? Raithwall accepted that influence because it brought peace. And if the stones don't allow the Occuria to have a direct influence, then why does it matter if the stones are destroyed? I get that it prevents a catastrophe, but how does that end the influence of the Occuria over the history of man?

[Zargabaath]

It comes down to: do they want the gods to control "history", though in reality the future and be as slaves to their plan or make their own destiny (free). Venat feels that Gerun has no claim to history's rein since he is rent from time. Dr. Cid and Vayne want to be free of Occuria control not just for themselves but for the whole world. Ashe has similar feelings since she decides to destory the Sun Cryst as she determines that she is no false prophet to be used. She understands that she wants to be "just free" - her words to Vayne in the Bahamut and with the Sun Cryst the Occuria could always guide Ivalice through time on the path the Occuria chose.

The stones are the only way the Occuria can interact/shape the physical world. For some reason, which was not delved, the Occuria left Giruvegan and went into the "celestial" home they are now. Somehow they cannot directly interact with the world. With the stones destroyed, more specifically the Sun Cryst, the Occuria had no means to control history's weave anymore, as if their only chess piece in the game of life was taken off the board. With no pieces to play with they are no longer a part of the game. Now the Great Crystal is supposedly nethicite, perhaps the deposit of nethicite that the Sun Cryst came from, but once more for some reason they cannot create another Sun Cryst or use the Great Crystal. This is one aspect of the story that needed more explanation.

[Locke4God]

Yeah I get that sort of, but still,,,, who was paying attention to the Occuria anyway? It seemed like the only influence was the one who was influencing Cid to get rid of their influence. It's like circular logic. Where in any of the story did they influence people negatively? I guess I mean, what was the big reason to suddently decide to end any influence? It's not as though they were doing anything anyway. Were they? I get that it was possible for them to have influence via the Sun Cryst, but that didn't guarantee them control over anybody. I guess I just don't see how they were a threat or even a concern.

[Zargabaath]

Where in the story did the negatively influence anybody?

I would say when they over the course of the game influence Ashe to use the nethicite to totally obliterate all of the Empire, which even she had doubts that the whole Empire be punished.

Before the game they were not taking an active role in Ivalice for nothing arose that required their guidance. With Venat going rogue they were spurned into action to destroy the traitor. The Occuria did not want to lose power, they viewed themselves as the guardians of Ivalice, able to guide her, & with that were vain.

The big reason to end any influence?

This is truely Venat's angle and not covered in the story. She decides that the Occuria should not be in control and give man the tools necessary to combat the Occuria. As to why she decides it may be because she saw them as rent from time, being immortal, and not a part of Ivalice anymore that she viewed it as unjust.

The power of deifacted nethicite is very powerful that one the size of a softball, perhaps, destroyed Nabudis. Whomever the Occuria gave their stones to could alter the world to whatever view the Occuria wanted as they would pick someone to accomplish their set goals. They used the "ghost image" of Rasler to have Ashe remember of her lost prince and kingdom - to fill her with rage, with vengeance towards Archadia. Archadia, the Empire that has received gifts from the heretic Venat, both committing blasphemy.

They were a concern because Cid and Vayne did not want humes to be controlled as puppets to the Occuria. This may make more sense to an atheist, as IIRC you are Christian. They don't want God (Occuria) controlling/interfering with their lives. Now the Occuria aren't characterized as being benevolent, if anything they are more like the Judea God. Vayne and Cid want humans to control their own destinies. They wanted freedom from a race of beings that have no business with Ivalice as they are not a part and are not affected by their own actions.

[Locke4God]

Actually I'm a total Atheist. 100%


The more you explain the story, and you're doing a great job in all seriousness, but the more I kind of find 12's story to be so convoluted, that I just really don't like it that much. I enjoy complications in stories and deeper reasonings being doing certain things, but it's just so hard to pin down who's doing what and why in 12, and even more difficult to figure out who I'm rooting for or against. I really have no idea.