Who the hell exactly is Ultimecia?

[Angel of Iniquity]

I mean really, I just played disc four again, and I feel it was a pretty lazy move by square not to give her a full history being a main villain, and the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory all but looked true, until square negated that... Then what the hell square, get off of FF7's balls and hope on to FF8's.... ... ... gross...

[Treize]

Isn't the random "mastermind" villain, who has pretty much no real part in the story until the end, last boss normal for Final Fantasy? You have Zeromus, Ultimecia, Necron, Yu Yevon, etc. All you really have to know is that she is the mastermind behind everything. I agree that it's a lazy way out, but there have been worse final bosses. I think Necron still takes the cake. It is certainly nice to learn about the final boss ten seconds before you fight him. At least with Final Fantasy VIII, you know of her existence for the majority of the game. I would have liked the game more if she didn't just control every major boss, but it is what it is.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Yea, it's kinda irritating.
I mean, how does Odine know she is from the future and wants time compression? Square seriously needs help with this one lol

[JuzamDjinn]

We knew about her, but not too much.
I think mystery worked well in the case of a sorceress from the future. I dont think she would have been as effective if we know all about her. And if she did play as big a role as say, Sephiroth it would take away from the more immidiate themes that we did see in the game as it was. FFVII was about sephiroth and what he does in relation to Cloud and his friends. FFVIII is about squall and his friendsand their relation to one another, however why play the game if the world isnt in danger?

I think Ultimicia was more of a device than a 'character' in this particular story.

[Shiro]

She's an evil sorceress from the future who wants to take over the world. Sometimes villains don't really need more than that

[Angel of Iniquity]

We knew about her, but not too much.
I think mystery worked well in the case of a sorceress from the future. I dont think she would have been as effective if we know all about her. And if she did play as big a role as say, Sephiroth it would take away from the more immidiate themes that we did see in the game as it was. FFVII was about sephiroth and what he does in relation to Cloud and his friends. FFVIII is about squall and his friendsand their relation to one another, however why play the game if the world isnt in danger?

I think Ultimicia was more of a device than a 'character' in this particular story.

Holy hell, yea you are right haha.
Nice thought. Plus, if they gave Ultimecia that much spot light, they probably would have weakened her.

[deathlord]

Well for ultimecia, you usually learn more about her in dissidia and she takes quite a liking to squall. For all we know that ultimecia can also be squalls mother. Since almost all the final fantasy' characters must have a mutual or family relationship towards each other.

FFX-Tidus and Jecht
FFXI-Zidane,Garland,Makoto, and Kuja
VIII-Squall and laguna not bad character but resemblence for some reason
FFVII-Cloud and Sephiroth
FFVI-Terra and Kefka
FFV-Bartz and Gauh
FFIV-Cecil and Golbez
FFIII-FFI are multiple monsters and villians with no idea which is the true villian after all all of them are minions of the ultimate Fantasy/ A never Ending cycle

[Shiro]

Raine is Squall's mother

[Angel of Iniquity]

Raine is Squall's mother

^-^

Little weird love thingy Laguna had here.

Rinoas mother, then Raine haha

[ZantetsukeN]

I'm pretty sure there is absolutely no evidence that Ultimecia is Squall's mother. In FFVIII or Dissidia.

First of all, we started to become aware of Ultimecia at the start of Disc 3, so it wasn't like she was a random final boss. We knew about her, we knew of her powers. You could even say that Squall and co had been fighting her from disc 1 (of course with her taking control of Edea. Obviously, we don't actually see her until moments before the fight, but at least we new about her earlier in the game, unlike Necron, Zeromus and Yu Yevon for example.

I think Squeenix did the right thing with Ultimecia. I suppose it changes the perspective of the characters when they are fighting an unseen enemy, and then the final battle is the first time they get to see her. It just twists a lot of things up, which is a good thing.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I'm pretty sure there is absolutely no evidence that Ultimecia is Squall's mother. In FFVIII or Dissidia.

First of all, we started to become aware of Ultimecia at the start of Disc 3, so it wasn't like she was a random final boss. We knew about her, we knew of her powers. You could even say that Squall and co had been fighting her from disc 1 (of course with her taking control of Edea. Obviously, we don't actually see her until moments before the fight, but at least we new about her earlier in the game, unlike Necron, Zeromus and Yu Yevon for example.

I think Squeenix did the right thing with Ultimecia. I suppose it changes the perspective of the characters when they are fighting an unseen enemy, and then the final battle is the first time they get to see her. It just twists a lot of things up, which is a good thing.

THey left the history of her which makes a horrible villian.
Why did she want to be a god?
She wanted everybody to go by er standards after godhood, but during the last battle she stated "All existence denied".
Makes no sense.
And yes, we have been fighting her the whole time, but as to why, again is left out, same as why odine knows of her, as to why 90% she exists.

[loaf]

Ultimecia did not want to be a "god". She wanted to be the only existing being in a world where Past Present and Future were one. In a sense, she wanted to return everything to the Void, like Exdeath and

SPOILER!!:

Necron, since Necron is the reference of FFV (and that's his role for existing)

As for Odine? Hasn't he been looking into Sorceresses for a long time?

[Zargabaath]

THey left the history of her which makes a horrible villian.
Why did she want to be a god?
She wanted everybody to go by er standards after godhood, but during the last battle she stated "All existence denied".
Makes no sense.
And yes, we have been fighting her the whole time, but as to why, again is left out, same as why odine knows of her, as to why 90% she exists.

Final Fantasy VIII is your favorite, or one of your favorite, Final Fantasyies and you don't know Ultimecia's motives? That's just bad written all over.

In Ultimecia's time-line sorceresses are hunted down because of what they are. When she becomes a sorceress herself she is unfairly persecuted. SeeD members and probably people in general attacked any sorceress because they knew that 1 of those sorceresses was going to be the "cold-blooded" tryant - Ultimecia. Why they persecuted sorceresses and their knowledge of Ultimecia is from Ultimecia failing in creating a Time Compression. She knew she was to be defeated by the "Legendary SeeD". Ultimecia was condemned for crimes she had not even committed yet and to survive the attempts against her life from SeeD & to stop the "Legendary SeeD" she wanted to compress time. With time compressed no one except her could exist therefore preventing her demise to the "Legendary SeeD". That's why she says "all existence denied".

Ultimecia is caught in a catch-22. Before she was born people knew of her attempt to compress time because of what happens in the game. It is Squall who tells Matron to create SeeD to stop the sorceress. Because of this persecution for crimes she has yet committed she actually does enact her crimes and plans of time compression to survive. She is a tragic villain. Edea's inauguration speech is Ultimecia revealing her motives; the people and gamer don't know that it is from Ultimecia.

[loaf]

When it comes to Time. You have to look into the Past, Present and Future in order to get everything tied together so it's not confusing. You pretty much get it all after you defeat Ultimecia.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Final Fantasy VIII is your favorite, or one of your favorite, Final Fantasyies and you don't know Ultimecia's motives? That's just bad written all over.

In Ultimecia's time-line sorceresses are hunted down because of what they are. When she becomes a sorceress herself she is unfairly persecuted. SeeD members and probably people in general attacked any sorceress because they knew that 1 of those sorceresses was going to be the "cold-blooded" tryant - Ultimecia. Why they persecuted sorceresses and their knowledge of Ultimecia is from Ultimecia failing in creating a Time Compression. She knew she was to be defeated by the "Legendary SeeD". Ultimecia was condemned for crimes she had not even committed yet and to survive the attempts against her life from SeeD & to stop the "Legendary SeeD" she wanted to compress time. With time compressed no one except her could exist therefore preventing her demise to the "Legendary SeeD". That's why she says "all existence denied".

Ultimecia is caught in a catch-22. Before she was born people knew of her attempt to compress time because of what happens in the game. It is Squall who tells Matron to create SeeD to stop the sorceress. Because of this persecution for crimes she has yet committed she actually does enact her crimes and plans of time compression to survive. She is a tragic villain. Edea's inauguration speech is Ultimecia revealing her motives; the people and gamer don't know that it is from Ultimecia.

Well, too bad the creators have a bad time pointing it out by undermining everything around the situation.
Go to the FF wiki and edit Ultimecias page, cause it needs it and you seem to know about her.

It's not like I didn't know her objectives, it's that it wasn't pointed out in the game directly. You put thought in that, and it makes sense. Is it stated in the Ultimania cause, that seems a little well thought out.

Plus, what was the original Ultimecias goal cause, this is all the second reality, not her first, or is FF8's world just caught in a paradox flux?

[Locke4God]

I've seen some people point out a couple of facts that seem to dismiss the theory, but I choose to believe the

Rinoa is Ultimacia Theory

Some believe that,,,

Ultimacia is some other character entirely that we never see in the bulk of the game, a futuristic sorceress that simply wants to combine time and views seed as the main obstacle in the future, and so she reaches back in part to destroy the seeds of the past, along with other intents. She draws Greiver from Squall's mind to use against them.

I however believe this

Rinoa grows up in a previous timeline, her powers get out of control and she reaches back in distress towards her love Squall, who had been transformed after his death in the future by Rinoa (now Ultimacia) into the GF Greiver which she later uses during her fight with seed, and the still alive version of Squall.

I think that fits the story better. I think it makes the story more dramatic than Ultimacia just being a random person we've never met. I think it makes certain scenes like the one in space on the Ragnarok suddenly more powerful between those two characters. I think it gives a chilling spin on the tale of romance, to where the beautiful love story appears in one version of time, to have taken a dark and obsessive twist. And if you're one who found the love angle to be bland, that should give you much more satisfaction that they took that route with these characters.

It's just way more interesting if that's what took place IMO.


(Yu Yevon I thought was actually an awesome final boss, if not very easy to beat. We did know that Yevon was created as a religion and so finding that it's messiah was also the religions createst emblem of fear, was not unexpected, but really really cool I thought.)

(Agreed that Necron was off the wall)

[Angel of Iniquity]

While it would have been a twist, it is far from correct and disdained from the designers.
There are NUMEROUS plot holes if Rinoa were to be Ultimecia.

What Zargabaath said makes the most sense.
And I'm guessing the ultimanias stated that as well.

[Rocky]

I do like your last theory. It ties in with the whole "Squall is dead" theory that I like to imagine working out, and makes the whole story have some immense depth. Probably not what was originally envisioned for the regular game but I approve of it!

[Locke4God]

@ 000din000 - other than the blantant denial by the developers, which I accept, what plot holes would there be?

And before you answer, my version of the theory comprises at least 2 verision of time, meaning Rinoa grew up became Ultimacia after she lost Squall, went insane. Went back, changed events that created a split in the timeline, and that is the timeline we see in the game.

[Angel of Iniquity]

@ 000din000 - other than the blantant denial by the developers, which I accept, what plot holes would there be?

And before you answer, my version of the theory comprises at least 2 verision of time, meaning Rinoa grew up became Ultimacia after she lost Squall, went insane. Went back, changed events that created a split in the timeline, and that is the timeline we see in the game.

Well one would be that Ultimecia is from the future, generations in the future.
Oh and, it can't be called denial if the developers never had that intent ^-^

[xXx Rikku xXx]

Really thinking here with my little mind but really because she's from the future then how were we or people from the game supposed to find out about her past and other things? =/ confusing myself now >.<

[Angel of Iniquity]

Really thinking here with my little mind but really because she's from the future then how were we or people from the game supposed to find out about her past and other things? =/ confusing myself now >.<

LMAO!
Don't worry, same here. I asked a question on this also, a user named Zargabaath gave a great answer, you should go check him or the thread.

[Locke4God]

No, I didn't mean denial, like they are in denial,,, I meant they denied the theory. I'm accepting their dismissal of the theory as wrong.

OK I've got your age plot hole, but ya know,,,, she's a sorceress. Could she have some age potion laying around, or perhaps she's hopped into the future a few times. Obviously she has time manipulating ability. She could have easily jumped a few decades ahead before the point in the game where we know she's now in the distant future. Or maybe she used the time powers directly on herself. Might explain her insanity.

What else ya got?


(@ the above comment from Rikku - One reason I always bought the Rinoa theory is exactly what you said. How are we supposed to know her past? But somebody from the future, would be more apt to have their past in our present and thus we could have learning about it all along without knowing it. I think that's what makes the Rinoa twist so powerful, is that she was the villian all the time and not even she knew it.) Of course I say this with knowledge that it's not true. Just having fun.

[Angel of Iniquity]

No, I didn't denial, like they are in denial,,, I meant they denied the theory. I'm accepting their dismissal of the theory as wrong.

OK I've got your age plot hole, but ya know,,,, she's a sorceress. Could she have some age potion laying around, or perhaps she's hopped into the future a few times. Obviously she has time manipulating ability. She could have easily jumped a few decades ahead before the point in the game where we know she's now in the distant future. Or maybe she used the time powers directly on herself. Might explain her insanity.

What else ya got?

Well her insanity came from knowing that SeeD were to kill her, knowing what SeeD were, or learning what SeeD were.

In a quote from another User.
In Ultimecia's time-line sorceresses are hunted down because of what they are. When she becomes a sorceress herself she is unfairly persecuted. SeeD members and probably people in general attacked any sorceress because they knew that 1 of those sorceresses was going to be the "cold-blooded" tryant - Ultimecia. Why they persecuted sorceresses and their knowledge of Ultimecia is from Ultimecia failing in creating a Time Compression. She knew she was to be defeated by the "Legendary SeeD". Ultimecia was condemned for crimes she had not even committed yet and to survive the attempts against her life from SeeD & to stop the "Legendary SeeD" she wanted to compress time. With time compressed no one except her could exist therefore preventing her demise to the "Legendary SeeD". That's why she says "all existence denied".
`Zargabaath

[Locke4God]

Yeah I buy that. And thanks,

But any other plot holes? If I just said, Rinoa lived longer than Squall. They had to hide out their whole lives because they were tracking her down. She turned him into Griever at his death, hopped forward in time a few centuries, grew insane, then came back with the Ultimacia time compression thing, does that not fit? Or I guess, in what way might that not fit?

[loaf]

Chrono Trigger teaches stuff about time. Helps a bit.

Throughout FFVIII, Ultimecia isn't even born yet, she doesn't technically exist yet. But since in the Future, she went back in time to take over Edea....so now back to the present day in FFVIII, Ultimecia shows up and what not happens in the game to where they know of her and create Time Compression. Like Z said, she is being blamed for things she hasn't technically done yet because she goes back in time to do all of this junk in her time.

I say it again, play Chrono Trigger.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Yeah I buy that. And thanks,

But any other plot holes? If I just said, Rinoa lived longer than Squall. They had to hide out their whole lives because they were tracking her down. She turned him into Griever at his death, hopped forward in time a few centuries, grew insane, then came back with the Ultimacia time compression thing, does that not fit? Or I guess, in what way might that not fit?

When a sorceress gets her powers, they usually have a set themes, which would mean, Adel is non-elemental, Edea is Ice, Ultimecia is Time, and Rinoa is Holy.
That dosn't hold much credit but let me elaborate.

How can Rinoa gain any sort of Time magic if she never had any in the first place? We can see that her primary magic set is holy from her limit break. Plus, Ultimecia didn't understand the entire object of seeD, which is why she Kept Squall alive. She wanted to know why she was getting hunted in her term.

[Locke4God]

Hummmm, interesting take on the Holy aspect of Rinoa's powers. I'd never considered that.

The other point about Ultimacia not knowing I could chalk up to her insanity or dissassociation with reality, but the magic set is a pretty good arguement you make.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Hummmm, interesting take on the Holy aspect of Rinoa's powers. I'd never considered that.

The other point about Ultimacia not knowing I could chalk up to her insanity or dissassociation with reality, but the magic set is a pretty good arguement you make.

One thing that is weird is Ultimecia seems to have mind reading abilities, posted from her "animation" of Greiver.
Also, from my understanding, Greiver is a real GF. But the one she summons is a complete difference than what is shown on Squalls necklace or ring.
She also pierced Squalls shoulder with edeas attack with no hesitation.
I don't think Rinoa would have done that.

[Locke4God]

Well as far as hurting Squall, think about the "you always hurt the ones you love" phenomenon. She obviously healed him after, which now that I think about it would answer a very big question that was left unanswered. After he's hurt, he wakes up in the prison with no injury whatsoever. It would actually make great since if Ultimacia (as Rinoa) had hurt him, then realized what'd she'd done and fixed it. Otherwise there is no answer and they never address the situation again.

And I've always thought if Griever was simply a dead squall turned GF from the future, as the other GF's in the game are previously living entities, then that would demonstrate further her illogical obsession with him, and perhaps fuel her need to see him alive again.