Just how powerful is Ultimecia?

[Angel of Iniquity]

Let's see, she did need Elone to go back in time(I think)
She needed a machine to start time compression
BUT!
She has the power of every sorceresses and adel was known to destroy a whole army with the simplest thought... o.o
She did end up destroying existence.

I think she is the most powerful person in FF history, really, who matches her?

She somehow managed to trick the party into achieving her status. And I think it's PIS that the party killed her...o.o

She easily pulled 3 planets and a large asteroid on the party(great attractor)... in her non ultimate form... take that sephy.
And she made her own ultimate magic, though I think it should have been stronger, or cooler looking at least.
She set the time in a time loop, though Garland did the same...
If she knew that squall was gunna kill her, she would have aimed at his head when she used Edeas Ice strike.


What do you think?
Oh, and please... We all know sephy is strong and cool but, he lacks in power compared to other bosses... Kefka destroyed the world... Sephy threatened the world with a meteor...
Kuja destroyed a planet... Sephy failed...

Story wise, Sephy is weak. After the strong support by fans, SE then buffed him up lol

[Xanatos]

It's really hard to compare, almost impossible some might say, villains through Final Fantasy franchise as we can't determine for sure how strong they really are, sure we can judge them by their accomplishments, but you have to understand that some villains had bigger opposition and harder time to accomplish their goal than other villains in series, who's there to say that Sephyroth wouldn't be able to destroy the world where Kefka resides as there's no lifestream to protect it (My God I'm defending Sephyroth, something's clearly wrong with me today).

As for Ultimecia, I like her as a villain, quite a mastermind, and bitch as Doodie would say, but that example you used, she pulling 3 planets and a large asteroid is somewhat stupid since it's just a flashy attack animation, it would be pretty stupid if she was actually capable of preforming such attack, which again would make Squall and his gang invincible for surviving it.

Same goes for Sephyroth's Supernova, if he was able to do something of such magnitude he wouldn't need a meteor, would he, though unfortunately there a quite a bunch of people who actually think he can pull that of. Storywise, Sephyroth is far from weak, he just didn't learned from his own mistakes and made few stupid decisions, but then again which villain hasn't done that as villain aren't supposed to win, with few exceptions "cough" Kefka"cough"Kuja"cough" (OMG, I'm defending Sephyroth again...weird...).

[Zargabaath]

It's really hard to compare, almost impossible some might say, villains through Final Fantasy franchise as we can't determine for sure how strong they really are, sure we can judge them by their accomplishments, but you have to understand that some villains had bigger opposition and harder time to accomplish their goal than other villains in series, who's there to say that Sephyroth wouldn't be able to destroy the world where Kefka resides as there's no lifestream to protect it (My God I'm defending Sephyroth, something's clearly wrong with me today).

This.

As for Ultimecia, I like her as a villain, quite a mastermind, and bitch as Doodie would say, but that example you used, she pulling 3 planets and a large asteroid is somewhat stupid since it's just a flashy attack animation, it would be pretty stupid if she was actually capable of preforming such attack, which again would make Squall and his gang invincible for surviving it.

This.

Same goes for Sephyroth's Supernova, if he was able to do something of such magnitude he wouldn't need a meteor, would he, though unfortunately there a quite a bunch of people who actually think he can pull that of. Storywise, Sephyroth is far from weak, he just didn't learned from his own mistakes and made few stupid decisions,

This. Also since o0Odin0o was trying to give one up to Ultimecia for her attack "Great Attractor", Sephiroth's Supernova destroys what would be: Pluto, Saturn, Jupiter then it hits the energy hits the Sun causing it to go Supernova where it envelopes Mercury, Venus, & Gaia. If you, Odin, want to use battle abilities in a comparison make sure to use both characters' abilities and not omit any ability. As a small note I have never seen Ultimecia use Great Attractor on me in either of my playthroughs or even when I loaded my first save file just to fight her again which is numerous times (lol).

but then again which villain hasn't done that as villain aren't supposed to win, with few exceptions "cough" Kefka"cough"Kuja"cough" (OMG, I'm defending Sephyroth again...weird...).

What about Chaos and his timeloop that looped who knows how many times? Or Yu Yevon/Sin who "ruled" for a thousand years? With Yu Yevon though his brain became that of an animal's no longer being able to think on an abstract level so I could see why he could be omitted.

By the way what do you mean by "win"? I understand Kuja & with Kefka is that he reshaped the world through creating an imbalance in the Warring Triad. Kefka was eventually defeated by the heroes who failed the first time - worst cast of heroes in FF history perhaps??? But this brings me to Ultimecia. She did get her time kompression; for how long is hard to say since time was kompressed. Gameplay wise it is not long, so it could have been longer than a year, as was Kefka's reign, on the scale of a thousand years like Yu Yevon/Sin, or even longer, as with the possibility like Chaos.

[Xanatos]

By the way what do you mean by "win"? I understand Kuja & with Kefka is that he reshaped the world through creating an imbalance in the Warring Triad. Kefka was eventually defeated by the heroes who failed the first time - worst cast of heroes in FF history perhaps??? But this brings me to Ultimecia. She did get her time kompression; for how long is hard to say since time was kompressed. Gameplay wise it is not long, so it could have been longer than a year, as was Kefka's reign, on the scale of a thousand years like Yu Yevon/Sin, or even longer, as with the possibility like Chaos.

By "win" I meant villains who accomplished their goals, even though it might be for a short notice, Kefka craved for God like power and he obtained it eventually, of course villains have to be defeated as Square doesn't "allow" other kind of scenario.

Also, you make some great points about other villains, I totally forgot about Chaos and Yu Yevon, as for Ultimecia, well, I never really thought about it, though it makes sense when you think about it.

[Angel of Iniquity]

How, I didn't mean to sound impudent about my post for great attractor. I was just saying she did it, not in her final form. Saying her powerful attack in her final form should have been AWESOME! But yea, everybody thinks Sephys supernova is canon.

How about this...
What exactly did these villans do?

Garland-Chaos- FF
Other than setting the time in a loop, eh, don't know, though I didn't like that game much
Palamecia- FF2
Killed allot of people... but I didn't know his intentions so I don't know if he did them
Xande-CoD- FF3
I hate FF3 so I refuse to comment of them
Zeromune- FF4
I hate FF4 almost as 3 so... same thing...
Ex-death- FF5
Wanted the power of the void, I suppose he achieved but, he was stupid.
Kefka- FF6
Well, you really don't know the true intentions until the last fight, though he did basically screw the planet o.o
Sephy- FF7
Never got passed the materia keeper, game bored me lol
Ulty- FF8
Got Time kompression, but I think was to weak from achieving that that she lost.
Kuja- FF9
fourth disk broke on me...o.o. Though he did destroy a whole planet I think
Yu-Yevon- FF10
Well, he did reign for around 1,000 years. Though it was pretty damn easy to kill him in theory. Go insid sin, and fight the inside LOL
*skip 11*
Vayne- FF12
Eh, ended the age of crystals? Thats what Venat said but, I don't understand that.
Barthandelous-Orphan- FF13]
Nothing... Summoned Orphan for nothing. Fang and her lesbo friend stopped cocoon from falling.

[Xanatos]

Where to start...

Time loop was designed to close after 2000 years, which would make Garland/Chaos immortal, or something like that.

Emperor Mateus wanted dominance over the world of Final Fantasy II, he sought that by using demonic creatures, many nations have fallen under him, he's also the first villain who managed to kill one of the main characters.

I'm not to sure, but if I recall correctly Cloud of Darkness appears when balance of the world is broken, by either light or dark side, Xande though is the one who broke it. I don't recall either one doing anything significant.

Zemus is the only one among his race who wanted to clean the earth of it's inhabitants, humans, he's passive for most part of the game, though his actions can be seen as he manipulated Golbez to do his evil bidding's, destroying multiple kingdoms for instance. If you ask me I think he's brilliant mastermind, a creature of great will power as he managed to do all that while being sealed.

Exdeath is basically incarnation of everything evil residing on Galuf's planet, his sole ambition was to gain complete control over the Void, which he managed to pull of, with it he intended to destroy everything, including himself. As for his actions, he burned down the Great Forest of Moore, his prison, he also caused the earthquake that sank Ghido's island, though most noticeably, he managed to kill Galuf.

Kefka's motives were never clear, not to me that is, though he was crazy so maybe he didn't need a good reason for what he was doing. All I know is that he craved for God like power and he obtained it, he ruled over the world and spread terror, even though it was for a short notice.

Aside his looks and big ass sword, Sephyroth is one of the rare villains who failed to impress me, all due to lack of accomplishments. He didn't do anything noticeable, except for killing Aerith and even that was done by Jenova. Of course I should give him credit for releasing the Weapons, they made quite a fuss, I assume they did more damage than the game shows.

Ultimecia is somewhat similar to Zemus, a mastermind if you will, she had control over multiple characters during the game, using them according to her plan, though her most noticeable feat, the world in which she lived was completely ravaged by her powers.

Through entire game Kuja sought two things, power and immortality, he managed to obtain higher power but eventually found out that he's mortal like every being, no different from the Black Mages, his own creations, fulled with rage he promised to destroy all life which he in fact did by destroying the crystal, the one who failed was death himself. He did regret for his evil deeds and managed to do one noble thing before he died, though Square never really showed his death.

By creating Sin as his shell you could say Yu Yevon was immortal, he did more than reign over the world for 1000 years, he became some sort of a religious icon, lives and belief of people of Spira were evolved around him.

By starting those wars which lead to eventual destruction of Nethicite Vayne managed to save the population of Ivalice from firm grasp of immortal Ocurians, thus leaving the entire population to make crucial decisions on their own, to write their own future.

...that would be a brief description.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'm not to sure, but if I recall correctly Cloud of Darkness appears when balance of the world is broken, by either light or dark side, Xande though is the one who broke it. I don't recall either one doing anything significant.

According to FFIII lore, Cloud of Darkness appears ONLY when Darkness overpowers Light. The Warriors of Darkness and the Ancients experimented what happened if Light tipped the balance, which caused pretty much the entire Ancient civilization to be extinguished. Light was used as a source of unlimited energy, to such an extent that it would have consumed them all.

Darkness, on the other hand, has properties not too dissimilar to Time Compression: essentially halting time or slowing it to near-paralysis. This is what happened on the rest of the world, which was effectively halted in time. This was because of Xande, whom did it for a very odd reason, and pretty much justifies Great Magus Noah's jerkass gift.

Xande was one of the three students of magic that Noah had. The others were Dorga and Unne. When the Great Magus Noah did what he had to do (I don't recall very well, but I think he was about to die, though that's illogical for what happens), he gave each of his students a gift. Dorga was gifted with the power of Time, Unne was gifted with the power of Dreams, and Xande...was given the "gift" of Mortality. Xande, naturally, couldn't take that as a gift and sought a way to conquer his own Mortality, so he sought for his lost immortality. In that sense, he did by using the power of Darkness to envelop the world in water, effectively freezing time until the Warriors of Light stopped him. However, by the time they face Xande and understand what happens, Cloud of Darkness appeared and wiped out the forces of Light, causing the Warriors of Darkness to grant their own power in order to fight CoD back.

So really, between CoD, Xande, and Necron, not to mention the botch from Yu Yevon, you get a lot of villains that are pretty senseless. In that regard, and it may sound as a defense, but Sephy managed quite a lot; surviving his own death is one, calling Meteor is another, and screwing with Cloud's mind even more. But, I differ in methodology; compared to other villains, he may end up even as sympathetic (if Sephiroth hadn't been called the ultimate SOLDIER, he would have qualified as a Woobie; in this case, it's a bit more of the trope that applies when the Universal Soldier goes wrong). Kuja is a great villain, but they screwed it up with Necron whom essentially appeared out of nowhere (really, I believe that there's no single mention of Necron up until Trance Kuja is defeated, and I believe that having an epic fight with Trance Kuja alone would have been a fitting ending). Emperor Paramecia, Zemus and Ultimecia work as masterminds, which despite appearing quite late in-game (the Emperor a bit less so), they are still palpable (Zemus through Golbez, Ultimecia through Edea), and how the villain you despise (again, Golbez and Edea) suddenly ends up being a puppet is a trope I like.

As for how powerful...well, compare that her main power is controlling time. To an extent; she can manipulate spells upon the general area, but doing something so extensive as Time Compression required a definite plan of larger extension. And it was for a good goal; if time is compressed, she will exist outside time and SeeD will cease to exist, hence ensuring she will exist essentially forever. So, by the sound of it, it's a well-thought plan to extinguish the chances of future extermination by the mere existence of SeeD; her only mistake was that Edea caught wind of it and made a countermeasure to allow Squall and co. to escape Time Compression as well and fight Ultimecia in her own turf.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Oh, I really appreciate the time took to write these answers, thanks.
Okay, how about this. Do you think it was PIS that Squall and co. beat ulty?
I like how powerful squall and co. are but, I think it is more PIS than sephy and cloud.

How about this again...

Garland- Well, I haven't seen the full extent of his powers so it feels plausible that the warriors of light won.

Palamecia- No, not plausible. There was nothing special about the party. No gifted powers from the crystals, nothing. That was PIS! (correct me if I'm wrong plz)

Xande, CoD- Well, they were the warriors of light again so, and the WoD weakened CoD so, it was plausible.

Zemus- Well, cecil did use the white crystal on him, but Idk. It was plausible at most.

Ex-death- They had the powers of the crystals, and I guess the dawn warriors helped them in a sense so I guess it was plausible but unlikely.

Kefka- No, not reasonable. his light of judgement destroyed several cities...
That was total PIS

Sephiroth- Well, I'm not to sure on the story but I suppose it was Plausible.

Ultimecia- Already stated that it was total PIS!

Kuja- Well, I think Zidane was meant to destroy life when he is old enough so I guess there is a possibility to win. But against Necron was PIS lol

Yu-Yevon, Sin- 100% possible. Why didn't anybody think that going inside sin and attacking his heartcore(yu-yevon) would kill him?

Vayne- Eh, No, not at all. In my opinion, the characters in FF12 were the weakest next to FF2. Even FF8 characters can junction super beasts XD
Definetely PIS!


Actually when you think about it. Most bosses are PIS. How did Squall beat diablos, or beat even Cerberus?

[ZantetsukeN]

I think a lot of the villains were very senseless in their plans and motives. But not Ultimecia. Ultimecia seemed to have it all thought out. I mean, you take a look at Exdeath, Kuja etc, they wanted power, that is all. They were very careless, especially Kuja (I haven't played V that much, I'm just going by what people have said).

Then you look at Sephiroth, who has also been the topic of discussion here. Sephiroth, upon finding out that he was infact 'created', he set out to destroy the planet by summoning Meteor. Kudos to him, because he did it over a set period of time (5 years, if I'm not mistaken). He seemed to have planned his course of action, but he did get careless at the end.

Then you bring it to Ultimecia, who is, technically, a genious. Looking at her story, she wanted to have control, not only of the world, but the world in the past, present and future. She used people in the story (Edea, Adel, Rinoa). Adel ruled Esthar and lead them to war, Edea ruled Galbadia and lead them to war, and Rinoa was used to bring back Adel to lead everyone to war. Quite frankly, that is genious. It wasn't a case of 'rule by fear, get what I want' kind of deal, Ultimecia did something that hasn't been done, and she did it well. Just a shame the heroes of the story were just a little bit stronger.

So what have I learned from playing FFVIII? It's that to have true power, you need a good brain. Ultimecia had both. By that, you could say, she was the most powerful of all the FF villains.

[Xanatos]

I think a lot of the villains were very senseless in their plans and motives. But not Ultimecia. Ultimecia seemed to have it all thought out. I mean, you take a look at Exdeath, Kuja etc, they wanted power, that is all. They were very careless, especially Kuja (I haven't played V that much, I'm just going by what people have said).

Kuja did in fact craved for power, though it wasn't his true goal, higher power was necessary for killing Garland, his own master, and eventually to rule over both Gaia and Terra.

Then you look at Sephiroth, who has also been the topic of discussion here. Sephiroth, upon finding out that he was infact 'created', he set out to destroy the planet by summoning Meteor. Kudos to him, because he did it over a set period of time (5 years, if I'm not mistaken). He seemed to have planned his course of action, but he did get careless at the end.

What really bugs me about Sephyroth are not his motives, nor his persona, only the way he handled the whole situation. For a intelligent military strategist he made quite a few mistakes, rookie mistakes I must say, and he did nothing about it. He didn't learn from his own mistakes, it's like he didn't care, too passive in my opinion, and that's way I never really found him to be an interesting villain.

Then you bring it to Ultimecia, who is, technically, a genious. Looking at her story, she wanted to have control, not only of the world, but the world in the past, present and future. She used people in the story (Edea, Adel, Rinoa). Adel ruled Esthar and lead them to war, Edea ruled Galbadia and lead them to war, and Rinoa was used to bring back Adel to lead everyone to war. Quite frankly, that is genious. It wasn't a case of 'rule by fear, get what I want' kind of deal, Ultimecia did something that hasn't been done, and she did it well. Just a shame the heroes of the story were just a little bit stronger.

So what have I learned from playing FFVIII? It's that to have true power, you need a good brain. Ultimecia had both. By that, you could say, she was the most powerful of all the FF villains.

While I do agree that she's indeed both brilliant and powerful I wouldn't be so hasty to call her the most powerful of all the Final Fantasy villains. Why you may ask? Well, there have been quite a few villains in franchise with both attributes. Take Zemus for instance, he was in almost same position as Ultimecia, if not worse, as he couldn't use his power for his evil binding's so he used his brain, or will power if you want, instead. I personally think of him as better mastermind as he made "less" mistakes, for most part of the game his presence isn't even noticeable which wasn't the case with Ultimecia.

Kuja my personal favorite, showed both brilliance and power during the game. He had control over queen Brahne and by using her he threw the entire continent into chaos of war, he even had control over the main character, by using his friends as leverage. The whole time he planed to overthrow his own master, and he in fact managed to do so, as for power, well he did destroy an entire planet, though what few know is that he's the one who destroyed Madain Sari, quite powerful if you ask me.

@T.G. Oscar - Thanks for brief lecture about Cloud of Darkness and Xande, it's been quite a while since the last time I played the game, perfect time to recall few things.

I actually disagree when it comes to Necron, in my opinion he was a great addition to Final Fantasy IX. I have this theory, maybe you've seen one of my threads here on TFF called "How about that Necron", where I discuss about that matter, well anyway, where Necron makes a perfect addition to the story and there would be a major plot hole without him. If there's a crystal that represents all life on both Gaia and Terra (the crystal in Memoria) there has to be something that represents death, that would be Necron. By destroying the crystal Kuja indeed destroyed all life just like he promised, the one who failed was death himself. With this theory Necron's speech at the end of the game makes more sense. I could surely use your opinion on this matter, though to me this makes perfect sense, or maybe Necron's just a generic big boss at the end of the game, a tribute to older games in the series.

[T.G. Oskar]

I actually disagree when it comes to Necron, in my opinion he was a great addition to Final Fantasy IX. I have this theory, maybe you've seen one of my threads here on TFF called "How about that Necron", where I discuss about that matter, well anyway, where Necron makes a perfect addition to the story and there would be a major plot hole without him. If there's a crystal that represents all life on both Gaia and Terra (the crystal in Memoria) there has to be something that represents death, that would be Necron. By destroying the crystal Kuja indeed destroyed all life just like he promised, the one who failed was death himself. With this theory Necron's speech at the end of the game makes more sense. I could surely use your opinion on this matter, though to me this makes perfect sense, or maybe Necron's just a generic big boss at the end of the game, a tribute to older games in the series.

Thing is, it was added as a patch. Which really leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the player.

I'll explain by providing another example from a game a few people probably have had the chance of playing: Romancing SaGa (the PS2 revision, known in Japan as Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song). In this game, the final boss is Saruin, the evil god of war and strife. From the very beginning of the game, they explain the motives of Saruin, his position on the story of the world (the middle between three dark gods, the eldest being Death and the youngest being the goddess of magic Schirach) is explained, and also what happened that led to his sealing (the defeat of Saruin by the hero Mirsa, whom was ascended to deific status because of his victory, and the use of the 10 Stones). From the very start, you are given the explanation of the status of the world, and how all of the conflicts eventually end in Saruin's return after several events (several places enter in conflict, the only official Empire in the world threatens the second most important kingdom in the world, unrest in a domain clearly composed of knights, amongst others) which, coupled with events that happen to the protagonists (such as one of the male protagonists finding a sealed cave which ends up releasing monsters and ruining the domain where he lives; or the acts of sacrifice that end up messing with one of the male protagonists' sweethearts, or even the truth about a forest maiden's heritage), reveals the greatest truth; Saruin is back, and you'll have to defeat him once and for all. The way the story is told is magnificent, and well-defined, even with a sense of actually requiring your group to make haste or things get WORSE (for example, some missions you may have access to solve on their own if you don't do anything about them, or get worse, or even inaccessible such as a continent which gets entirely devastated by a legendary superboss), but it all deals in one thing; beating the god of strife or the world falls into ruin. It's so bad, there are THREE groups that wish to help you (each for their own means): the good side, the neutral side, and the evil side:

SPOILER!!:

Not much spoilers, but the Good side is actually the lord of ALL Gods goes and helps you, the Neutral side has titans helping you, and the Evil side has an unlikely partner helping you (not to mention that it's the hardest way to get help).

The real spoilers:

The Good side has the Minstrel that tells the story revealing he's Elore, the god of Light and the supreme deity; the Evil side has Death helping you which means it's a brother asking you to kill his younger brother.

Now, the reason I make that claim is because everything gets explained pretty well. When you realize you're gonna face Saruin at the end, you actually expect it and WANT to end all of this, because Saruin, quite frankly, is a jerk.

Necron, on the other hand, was added as an afterthought. Allow me to explain what could have happened and how Kuja of all people would have intervened:

If Necron's presence was meant to be part of the story, he would have had been mentioned at least at one moment, or the idea that there is a powerful side to the Crystal that may signal the end of existence. This happens because Kuja effectively steals the spotlight becoming the definite menace to deal with. By all means, Deathguise (aka, Doom Gaze cameo) appears there for no reason, while things like SoulCage (arguably what could be claimed as Necron's physical avatar) would have gained some relevance. However, you are so absorbed into the idea that you have to defeat Kuja, that when you realize that you have to face Necron, you get the "WTF? Where does this guy comes from!?" idea.

Now, there was no need to have Necron at all. For all you know, the final boss could have been Kuja. Or perhaps NOT Kuja, but Kuja's frustration. Odd as it may sound, recall that in the end Kuja does something quite out of character:

SPOILER!!:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kuja was the one that saved Zidane by giving the very life he didn't want to give. This is quite out of character, but a redeeming factor.

Thus, based on that little point, you could say that:

SPOILER!!:

If the story writers had been a bit smarter, that "nameless" side of death that the Crystal had could have meshed with that very feeling of worthlessness that Kuja harbored inside and created a creature that essentially wished to destroy the world out of the very desire of having a purpose to its existence: if Kuja couldn't live forever, no one would live AT ALL. In that way, once that was defeated, Kuja would have been freed from that frustration and despair in his heart, and his sacrificial act, while still perfectly explainable, would have been quite genuine as well; Zidane saved his "soul", now it's time for him to save his life.

The problem lies in that Necron appears all of a sudden, and either the game expects you to reach that conclusion (hence, your realization that Necron was always there being the "dark side" of the Crystal and the very essence of death and oblivion being more of a Fridge Brilliance act than something implied), or there was a plot hole that was so gaping wide and the devs couldn't do anything else with Kuja without ruining him so they added Necron as a last-minute addition. If anything, Necron will still end down as a big downer, because the battle with Trance Kuja was pretty epic; nominally, because it's one of the only FEW villains who doesn't grow 50 meters to still kick your buttocks, and that the same power you saw in the cutscenes was pretty much the same power you saw in the battle.

Oh, and that Kuja actually does something that no one, save (depending on your interpretations) on Exdeath (absorbed into the Void!), Kefka (winked out of existence; luckily you still have a big roster!) or Ultimecia (absorbed into time! Fortunately you still have 3 more people waiting). Kuja killed all of the heroes with Ultima.

Oh, wait...I forgot that St. Ajora/Ultima also did the same with the guys from FF Tactics, although I think it's more of a cover-up for the conspiracy that all were still alive. But still: Kuja pretty much killed all of the heroes, and if it weren't because all of a sudden they could revive after killing Death (not possible, but then again Lovecraft shared the same idea and Christian eschatology does as well).

But...I still say: Ultimecia was quite the misunderstood villain, but mostly because masterminds aren't seen as strong villains. I do admire Exdeath for being a mastermind with a hands-on approach, but Zemus and Ulti really deserve an applause for being overall smart chaps. Not to mention that Ulti was also quite smart to pull off a time compression instead of a time loop (take that, Chaos!)

[Angel of Iniquity]

I definitely agree that maby death could have "changed" Kuja, and turned him into Necron.
Or his rage manifestoed. Like Zemus

[markandrewkinzett]

As it goes she is a powerful sorceress becuse she can possess other sorcerss's compress time and all that stuff. However if you have a strong party and have released most (if not all) of your sealed abilities when in her castle she is pretty easy to defeat. I mean if you have gained the Gigamesh card from the King of cards side quest in Balamb Garden you can refine it using Card Mod to get 10 Holy Wars which makes you invincible for a short time really even Omega Weapon is noit that hard if you are invincible so Ultimecia is not really that hard in my eyes.

[Heartless Angel]

Ultimecia, like many great villains has fallen victim to the "hero must win" theory of game stories. Thinking logically, there is no way in hell she should've lost. She exists in every time simultaneously. Go kill the heroes' parents before they ever met. Game. There are no heroes. They never existed in the first place. Of course if she did this, it would be quite impossible for the heroes to win, so Square made her fail to use her powers to their fullest potential (again...). This isn't the first time they've done this.

Kefka: I don't particularly like Kefka, but I absolutely acknowledge his strength. He should've wiped the party out of existence in the blink of an eye. Heroes couldn't win if he did, so they had Kefka not use the full extent of his power.

Sephiroth: This guy is so much stronger than the party, the first time I played, I actually thought Square was going to move away from the "hero must win" idea. Because from everything I'd seen so far, defeating the guy gives whole new meaning to impossible. Before you even get into combat with the guy, without so much as moving, he has you all suspended midair feeling like you're being ripped apart. Hello? Make with the stabby-stabby? hero go bye-bye? No, actually I think I'll just leave and let you fight Jenova again. Yeah, I have the power to send masses of death that detonate stars. Ill throw it at the sun, and let you take damage from the blast rather than just throwing said star smashing blast of death AT you. Yeah, I can take out 10,000 Wutai soldiers by myself without breakig a sweat, but I really don't feel like fighting these 8 people... The guy should've absolutely annihilated the party, but if he fought with the power he posessed, the hero couldn't win, so we had him hold back and make stupid mistakes.

Ulti: As mentioned above. You can **** with the past, how can you manage to lose? Seriously? You were never born. No confrontation needed, you just lose, because I am God.

Kuja: You can blow up a planet with a single cast of Ultima, yet all this does is drop the party's health to 0? There shouldn't be a party left. There shouldn't be a Gaia left. WHy waste your time with Necron and the stupid crystal when you can just blow up the other planet too? Because the heroes couldn't win if he did.

Sin: Yeah, I can take out multiple Al Bhed machine weapons and several thousand Crusaders with one massive explosion of gravity based doom. But when you fly an airship next to me, rather than turning it to dust in the same fashion, I think I'll just lean and bump into it for a few thousand damage every so often... I don't really care all that much... Really? If he wanted you dead, that giant SOB could've just bitchslapped your flimsy airship right out of the sky (if he was feeling too lazy to erase it from existance entirely with another magic gravity barrier explosion thing). Why didn't he? Hero couldn't win if he did.

I'm sure there are others who if I thought about it I could come up with something for too, but these were the ones right off the top of my head. It was absolutely PIS that allowed Squall and Co to win that battle... assuming that battle ever really occured to begin with anyways. I'm a big supporter of the "Squall is Dead" theory, in which case that battle was simply part of Squall's Final Fantasy.

[Angel of Iniquity]

YOU MADE A LIST!!!
*gives you Dieties bane*

Okay now...
To complement your post...

Ex-death should have just cast them to the void, though the warriors of dawn messed with him, removing his void powers on them.

Oh and about sin. The people sang the song of prayer which calmed him down. And remember that sin is basically running on instincts lol

Square said that Sephiroth was the strongest villian they have made, but if that was true, I don't he could have even been hurt. Ultimecias "true form" was only aailiable to show after reality was broken, meaning the ulti we seen at the end was really just mock up.

I just confused myself...>.>

[Heartless Angel]

Being the strongest doesn't nescessarily mean being omnipotent and immune to any and all damage, just having the ability to end the fight before any is dealt. Which Seph absolutely had (as did other villains, but I believe Seph is the strongest when compared apples to apples to the others) but again, if he used it, hero couldn't win.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Yeh, I think Square is for once listening to fan service and increasing his powers as they go allong. Maybe I should play 7 before I talk... *FF8 fanboy alert* xD

[T.G. Oskar]

Yeah, I have the power to send masses of death that detonate stars. Ill throw it at the sun, and let you take damage from the blast rather than just throwing said star smashing blast of death AT you.

Erm...if that's the limit of his power, I must confess: mecha broke my hopes of a powerful villain. Because if one mecha can actually pull off one third of Sephy's supernova and deal approximately 500 times the damage, I find that hilarious. And yes, before you freak out; no, he's not an ally, and he doesn't deal that huge amount of damage; again, otherwise the party wouldn't win.

Then there's a mecha that extinguishes (artificial) stars*, another that throws galaxies like if they were projectiles and engages in the singlemost brutal battle of one-ups with drills, and another whose detonation implies a universal wipe*.

Though, aside from the Final Boss Theorem, I have the slightest impression that Obfuscating Stupidity isn't the case. Oddly enough: if the villain acts so stupidly to be easily defeated, why not show that the heroes have world-shattering power that actually makes the villain's superior potential be equalized or nullified?

Perhaps, just perhaps, Ultima really IS a destructive spell, but the Returners are so used to it that it deals only flesh wounds.

Perhaps, just perhaps, Cloud's Omnislash at its fullest potential can cleave the Milky Way in half. Perhaps the Highwind has Minutemen-grade nuclear firepower. Perhaps Tifa's Premium Heart can paralyze the world like nothing happens.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the power inherent within Rinoa, Selphie and Quistis (which I feel are all Sorceresses in their own way), and the innate potential of Squall, Zell and Irvine makes them violate anything Ultimecia knows about time, even though they depended on a close call to escape their fate (and once it happened, Ulti simply couldn't do anything). Alternatively, with Ellone's power, perhaps they ALSO exist on all dimensions, and thus eliminating Squall's parents can't do anything because it would be the equivalent of eliminating Ultimecia before being born.

Perhaps, just perhaps, heroes are also holding their true power? Because I constantly hear of villains holding their power, but then I see stuff like GaoGaiGar and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, and I just wonder if the heroes[/I] are holding their power as well...

*:Not safe for work

[Heartless Angel]

If that were the case, games would never have a threat from villains to begin with, making the plotline almost completely pointless, as they'd have the power to stop them from the get go before any real damage was done... but then heroes CAN be pretty stupid, so I guess that's a possibility.

[T.G. Oskar]

If that were the case, games would never have a threat from villains to begin with, making the plotline almost completely pointless, as they'd have the power to stop them from the get go before any real damage was done... but then heroes CAN be pretty stupid, so I guess that's a possibility.

Oh, no, I'm not saying that the heroes start up with gamebreaking powers. What I mean is that, by the time they're facing the Big Bad, they should have that potential as well. I don't say that Cloud should start already cleaving things in twain or that Terra's inborn Esper potential should allow her to cast Ultima at level 1, but what I mean is that perhaps, if removing the power limits between heroes and villains, you should see catastrophic results.

Even then, most heroes at least start powerful. Again: comparing one thing to another, Sephiroth was capable of slaying around 10,000 SOLDIER (or was it regular soldiers? Not so sure); Terra, on the other hand, was stated to slay 50 of the best Magitek soldiers (essentially people in Magitek Armor and infused with magic) in under a minute. Yet, when you start the game, she's with a party and she needs to use Heal Force every now and then. So, while she could very well be holding her power (instead of essentially incinerating Narshe to the ground), it may be that her power was indeed great, but not superb as you may think. As she levels up, she gains new and greater powers (and control over them), to the point that at the time that she faces Kefka, she should reliably already have Ultima with her. Of course, the fact that, mechanically, Kefka can be defeated by people around level 30 (with some effort, I presume) doesn't really justify the fact that he should basically be the deity of Magic, but if placed on less "limited" terms, you'd have someone with the power of the Statues/Warring Triad against around a dozen people with the power of all non-captured Espers backing them up. In the same degree, you'd have Sephiroth's assumed near-limitless power against a group of people whom already defy physics, make things explode, and have vast control over Materia so as to cause great damage just by using Firaga, Comet, Flare and Ultima (and that goes without using the Summons). Heck, the best two ways to see this is with Advent Children and Crisis Core: in the former, there's absolutely no reason why Sephy can't use all of his powers to finish Cloud, and yet Cloud not only receives an alley-oop from a dearly departed, but engages an Omnislash attack in mid-air, when originally he couldn't fly. And this should be basically Cloud at full potential; however, it may be that he also fought at less than full potential.

Thing is, those are mechanical restraints in comparison to what their true potential should be. Otherwise, Disgaea or Super Robot Wars show the other extreme (basically, when you show the individual's full power and exaggerate the result).

In the case of Ulti, though, she may have had another reason: preventing a Time Paradox. Recall that, either through what's expected (Edea receiving the Sorceress' powers from the fallen Ulti) or what has been hypothesized (Rinoa is Ultimecia in the future), any wrongdoing and she may potentially risk her entire existence as well. Perhaps part of her plan was to ensure a stable time stream so that she could remove the threat of the SeeD without eliminating herself; otherwise, if SeeD never existed (or Squall), would she had made that plan in the first place? Arguably, Ulti's plan was far more complex than that of others, because she quite probably had to deal with the nuances of time (unlike, say, Exdeath whom only needed to reach the point where the Void manifests in order to claim control over it).

So, again, it may not be mostly stupidity. Perhaps it's just the mechanical restraints. Consider that Squeenix has been conservative in terms of final bosses, while other games exaggerate. And, also consider that other games had ways to make their bosses harder (Zeromus and his unusual HP restoration, for example; even then, they were conservative since Zeromus has over 40,000 HP while you can find bosses with 65 million HP currently).

[Heartless Angel]

Terra was an unusal case as far as protagonist power goes. She actually did start with soms serious abilities (in story terms anyways, in gameplay terms she was just like any other level 1 hero). In most cases hwoever that wasn't the case. First 3 gaames, the heroes were just a bunch of kids and n00bs who gained power from crystals. Cecil was kinda powerful from the start being a high ranking knight, but I certainly wouldnt expect him to go 1 on 50 and win because of that. Bartz was about as dangerous at the beginning of V as Aerith was on Disc 2 of VII (Not very). Cloud couldn't even make it IN to SOLDIER, he was just a shinra infantryman who'd been given a mako treatment, without any special training and limitted experience, he was no more powerful than any other insignificant SOLDIER operative. Squall wasn't even a SeeD yet, just another rookie, while others the same age as him such as Quistis were already SeeD teachers. He was skilled and all, but he wasn't that outrageously awesome from the start. Zidane never really did strike me as all that powerful, which is odd considering he was (in theory) equal to or greater than Mr. Planet-crushing Ultima. So he's one I could see maybe have been holding back. Tidus? You kidding, he'd never even held a sword until Auron handed him one in the middle of Sin's attack. Light crystals were actually a reasonable excuse as to why some of the earlier protagonists triumphed over otherwise superior villains, but that stopped in later games. Not once in VII did I ever see Cloud really demonstrate any power anywhere near what Sephiroth had proven himself capable oftime and time again, yet come final boss time, suddenly the two are equals. Hell, even in AC he was just playing around with Cloud, ignoring multiple chances to kill him, until finally the hero pulled the good ole' Deux Ex Machina Omnislash out of his ass to achieve the traditional happy ending. As you pointed out, the nuances fof time are alot harder to put on a scale than simple planet smashing capabilities, and I really can't claim to have a full understanding of Ulti's limits and abilities, so maybe that victory WAS justified. (I think it was because I think Ulti was a part of Squall's Fantasy, but assuming that WASN'T the case...) Zidane never showed any incredible powers that would make it make any sense at all for him to beat a guy who can blow up planets with single spells. Again, he'd already demonstrated that they were powerless to stop him from destroying an entire world. If that was his goal again, there should've been no stopping him, it just doesn't make sense to me. And Tidus, really I don't care how long a jorurney you've been on, gaining sphere levels and combat experience along the way, you shouldnt be going from taking 3 hits to drop a sinscale to fighting and defeating Sin in close combat. And interestingly, this failed to destroy Sin, yet the same type of fighting was sufficient to destroy Sin's Destroyer? It just doesn't add up.

[T.G. Oskar]

Terra was an unusal case as far as protagonist power goes. She actually did start with soms serious abilities (in story terms anyways, in gameplay terms she was just like any other level 1 hero).

Yeah... (~~~daydreaming <3<3<3<3~~~)

In most cases hwoever that wasn't the case. First 3 gaames, the heroes were just a bunch of kids and n00bs who gained power from crystals.

In the first game, they easily slew Garland. They slew the Fiends. Hence, it is reasonable that they slew Chaos. Also, consider that Final Fantasy in that sense was roughly similar to Dungeons & Dragons. Mostly, to 1st or 2nd Edition D&D.

For similarities: Chaos had nearly 50 times more HP than the goddess of evil dragons, Tiamat. No; I kid you not. And with Bahamut's aid, you could realize some of the stuff they could do: allow your typical Fighter to cast White Magic spells (though they miss some stuff), Thieves to cast Black Magic spells (this time a bit more complete), and White/Black Mages to cast the epic-level spells, because Flare and Holy and Arise and Death are meant to be spells of epic power. And Chaos DID use the advanced versions of the Fiends' spells. So I'd say in that case, it's roughly equal: the Heroes are roughly as strong as Chaos, and it's intended to happen that way.

FFII: that's a bit of a weird one. By itself, it has a rather "realistic" stat growth system which uses effort as a way to handle enemies. However, it is easily exploitable (SaGa games aren't as easy to exploit in that sense). Emperor Paramecia isn't nearly as powerful as he's meant to be until you slay him, in which case he turns into the King of Hell. And you still have to unlock the ultimate White Magic spell (Ultima) to defeat him, not to mention use a sword he quite probably never intended you to use (Blood Sword).

FFIII: consider the Crystals give the heroes their powers four times over. Consider that, while your party has several spells and abilities at your disposal, Dorga and Unei don't use even half of their power, and when they transform, they ARE a challenge to your party unless you level-grind. Then comes Eureka, and you can notice that these guys are meant to kick loads of [enemy fleshy behinds] so as to remain almost full of energy before reaching CoD. And even then, the Warriors of Darkness had to help them, so you could say that it wasn't really an even match.

Cecil was kinda powerful from the start being a high ranking knight, but I certainly wouldnt expect him to go 1 on 50 and win because of that.

Cecil was a Dark Knight, and a quite experienced one at that. He has almost the same degree of potential as Terra, perhaps a bit lower. Then again, he starts as a Paladin at 1st level and he already has great stats; consider what would have happened if instead of restarting from level 1, Cecil had started as a Paladin of the same level as he was as a Dark Knight. So not only does he has experience and skill, he has a full new suite of powers to complement that and a boost (to boot!)

More: to defeat Zemus, it required the most powerful spell in the world cast twice in succession. Consider as well you have the most powerful sword in the world (Excalibur), the god of all summons (Bahamut), and you can figure they're pretty powerful in their own right (especially if the group, which is five, no less and no more, defeated the god of summons). So you can see that the party is meant to be quite, quite powerful, considering the fact that Zeromus was actually not that strong in any case (sorta like Giygas/Gyiyg in Earthbound).

Bartz was about as dangerous at the beginning of V as Aerith was on Disc 2 of VII (Not very).

Bartz was a solo adventurer until that moment. He traveled only with Boko, his chocobo; at one moment he should have fought some enemies. To travel alone without dying until he met Galuf and Lenna means he should have been a serious individual. Then the Crystals grant the heroes their powers.

Also, Exdeath fights in two forms. When you fight Exdeath, he is pretty much invulnerable until Galuf sacrifices himself in order to defeat him (so you can realize Galuf was actually holding his power out). That's probably the first canon example that the heroes, weak as they are, probably are holding out because otherwise Galuf would have wiped out all other minions with little effort; the fact that fighting Galuf cost him his life shows that Exdeath wasn't someone to laugh at.

So, consider that Galuf, someone with great experience, whom effectively sealed Exdeath along with four other people, and whom got the same power boost from the Crystals, could have fought Exdeath at a standstill and still live. The fact that he held up until that time, and that later on the heroes get about three or four times stronger than Galuf was should mean something.

Cloud couldn't even make it IN to SOLDIER, he was just a shinra infantryman who'd been given a mako treatment, without any special training and limitted experience, he was no more powerful than any other insignificant SOLDIER operative.

I haven't played Crisis Core yet, so take it with a grain of salt, but consider this: at the time of Crisis Core, Cloud was already gaining levels. He still managed to defeat Sephy for the first time while having a wound (and with no other weapon than Sephy's own Masamune). So I could say that, by the time he was acting as a mercenary, he was quite powerful.

Aeris is another thing. She, much like Cecil, Terra and Zidane, is a hybrid of human and a mythical race. Almost by definition, they have great power; bit of difference is that, unlike Cecil, or Terra, or Zidane, Aeris' power was of a more benevolent bent. It just happens that she wasn't that fit physically, or had supernatural senses (or perhaps she did; otherwise, why did she allowed herself to die so easily if she could communicate with Cloud over a great distance?). Then you find what she does with the Lifestream, and you can figure that Aeris really held her power. So I wouldn't say Aeris was weak; quite the contrary, Aeris was quite powerful, as much as a White Mage is.

Squall wasn't even a SeeD yet, just another rookie, while others the same age as him such as Quistis were already SeeD teachers. He was skilled and all, but he wasn't that outrageously awesome from the start.

Recall that he's one of the few people skilled with a Gunblade; the other is Seifer, and quite probably the Galbadian soldiers but their weapons don't seem like proper gunblades. The Gunblade is presumed to be a very difficult weapon to use, let alone master. Zell is a self-taught martial artist who learns stuff from magazines; he probably has untapped potential. Quistis shows that she has great skill, and even then she's (mechanically) similar to Squall and Zell when fighting Ifrit; then again, she's quite probably a closet Sorceress as well (specialized in Blue Magic). Irvine was considered the best sharpshooter in Galbadia Garden, and he never used a GF until Squall and co. arrived. Rinoa has two power sources: one is her dog (Angelo) which is pretty powerful (I mean, a dog trick that can make everyone invincible, literally?).

And then there's Selphie. The End; all I have to say.

Zidane never really did strike me as all that powerful, which is odd considering he was (in theory) equal to or greater than Mr. Planet-crushing Ultima. So he's one I could see maybe have been holding back.

And that's while you consider he's equally as powerful as Kuja on Trance. Kuja was almost permanently on Trance; the rest don't. In the same vein: Garnet/Dagger can command the Eidolons to appear in person while under Trance (and compare Eidolon-present damage to the cutscenes, and you can see that Garnet is holding back); Steiner's Trance seems weak, until you consider it's the ultimate endurance stance (his Trance actually reduces all damage by half), and he also learns the four techniques that Beatrix (which never held back in the entire game, sans I'd say when you use her as a guest and even then) uses; Eiko and Vivi can use two spells back to back, something that not even magic-twins Zorn and Thorn can do (they can use Twin magic, but not Double magic)... Trance vs. Trance, you can figure that the heroes had to be holding back; otherwise, imagine fighting Necron with Steiner in permanent Trance, or with Zidane in permanent Trance...

Tidus? You kidding, he'd never even held a sword until Auron handed him one in the middle of Sin's attack.

The fact that he could do well against the Sinspawn?

Also: Auron held back. Consider if he was fighting at the full potential of Braska's former Guardian. Wakka and Lulu were also former Guardians, so they might be holding back; Lulu was a Guardian to three former Summoners IIRC.

Light crystals were actually a reasonable excuse as to why some of the earlier protagonists triumphed over otherwise superior villains, but that stopped in later games. Not once in VII did I ever see Cloud really demonstrate any power anywhere near what Sephiroth had proven himself capable oftime and time again, yet come final boss time, suddenly the two are equals. Hell, even in AC he was just playing around with Cloud, ignoring multiple chances to kill him, until finally the hero pulled the good ole' Deux Ex Machina Omnislash out of his ass to achieve the traditional happy ending.

It's not easy to see, you see. I'd go with..say, the Star Ocean anime. Compare what happens in-game with what happens in the anime; Claude is not even fighting at the same potential as in-game, and battles are much, much harder when using only a single technique. He uses the same sword over and over again. Turns out? He was using a fairly good sword, and he was just fighting with sheer power potential, to the point that he stood in near-equal terms to Dias Flac, arguably the best swordsman in the world. Yet in-game, while it is reliably closer to what happens in the anime (the game coming before the anime), Dias simply curb-stomps you like nobody's business...IF you manage to reach to that point).

So yeah...perhaps it's not the best example, but it shows that what you see in game is not necessarily what might happen in narrative.

Then, you have Advent Children. I'd say that'd be a bit of bias (not the same bias as "Sephy is teh haxxorz OMG!!"), but that you've conditioned yourself to see Sephiroth as undefeatable that you haven't probably considered Cloud is doing the same, and thus it's probable that you see Sephiroth intentionally missing opportunities to end that once and for all. Now, that doesn't mean that's what actually happened (maybe Sephiroth WAS playing with Cloud), but that doesn't mean he wasn't playing on the same terms. Before, as you said, he was no more insignificant than an infantry man, yet you have him walking over walls and pretty much flying while blocking Sephy almost blow by blow while in mid-air.

And that's mostly because I simply can't share the idea that villains are all powerful and that heroes always get the good ending just because. Heck, you have SEEN how they've grown; if you deliver them an unbeatable enemy, then why are you actually playing the game anyways? You know, building the heroes to beat the enemy in the first place? Which is why I suggested that about Ulti: she was indeed quite powerful, but playing with Time isn't as easy. Then there's the point that probably Nomura and Kitase are exaggerating about Sephiroth, but whatever they say is canon for the game; then again, he could have curbstomped the opposition in Dissidia to the point that he could play pawns off everybody, including the very chaotic Jecht. But I just mention that in passing, since Dissidia is semi-canon anyways (what happens in Dissidia, stays in Dissidia).

And that goes without saying there CAN be undefeatable enemies. But then, you'd have to be, say...I dunno, Tolkien. Or Andrew Hussie.

Zidane never showed any incredible powers that would make it make any sense at all for him to beat a guy who can blow up planets with single spells. Again, he'd already demonstrated that they were powerless to stop him from destroying an entire world. If that was his goal again, there should've been no stopping him, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Consider that Kuja was on full Trance mode while the rest only sparingly reaches Trance. Consider now what would have happened if Zidane went on Trance right at that moment...except that'd be hard because he was completely crushed to know he wasn't human. And the rest was quite probably worried about him.

Which shows, in a way, why you don't see heroes showing their full power. I mean: just look at frickin' Superman! He could effectively end crime forever by killing and sealing and annihilating his villains, but he does it out of worry, out of conscience, out of values and out of personal predilections. He has probably seen the consequences of those acts, and decides not to extend their full power out of worry that things are gonna go real wrong.

Which...could be translated into Final Fantasy, actually. Superman in Planet Joker shows, to an extent, what happens when someone with actual full power decides to use it: he breaks Batman, actually. Thing is, when he's about to destroy the world, Superman defeats him not by unleashing his full power, but by realizing that if he does so, the Joker will never be better than Batman. That alone broke him. Same as Sephy, I'd say: he thought that he'd be broken with Aeris' death, so his plan didn't succeed until he did; then Cloud broke off that conditioning, and he probably didn't expect that. Perhaps, just perhaps he knew that if he fought at full strength and curbstomped the group, Holy would have finished Meteor once and for all, and even then, the group could have died and the Lifestream would still have done what it did. There's just so many variables to consider aside from "why not hammer the darn thing already!?"...

And Tidus, really I don't care how long a jorurney you've been on, gaining sphere levels and combat experience along the way, you shouldnt be going from taking 3 hits to drop a sinscale to fighting and defeating Sin in close combat. And interestingly, this failed to destroy Sin, yet the same type of fighting was sufficient to destroy Sin's Destroyer? It just doesn't add up.

It's...sorta what I believe happens with Lavos, or...whom else...ah, the Iifa Tree! Why, instead of considering Sin's shell, Braska's Final Aeon and Yu Yevon as separate bosses, why not consider that you've been fighting Sin all that moment, in a single battle in which all they did was fight to reach the core. Of course it didn't destroy Sin; destroying something at that scale was just too much effort, and probably time-consuming considering that Sin could have just used Giga-Graviton (and it was actually doing that, but it used the same rules for Overdrive as the Aeons, so if they're inside, he can't use Giga-Graviton. Braska's Final Aeon couldn't fight at full strength because quite probably he would have ended becoming Sin (and ruining the kids' plans) or because he would have ended Sin, something that Yu Yevon was mentally preventing, so he was forced to fight in unequal measure. In the same degree, to ensure their survival, the group fought at reduced potential, because otherwise they would have been crushed (or worse, turned into Fayth for a new type of Sin) if that happened. Or just...perhaps...they fought at full strength but that wasn't easy to determine.

Having incalculable power, using that incalculable power, and knowing how to use that incalculable power are three things that are strikingly different. And what the creator claims about that incalculable power also adds to the equation. All I can say is: Ultimecia is really very, very powerful, and she knew how to use her power, but perhaps she was not able to use it to her fullest extent in order to prevent a time paradox.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Hmm, well, the creators said that Sephiroth was the strongest, but think like this, they said Warrior of Light, Cloud, and Squall were the strongest, with Squall probably being the winner. Sooo...
Yeh... confusing myself, here again...

Well squall, if you remember, can junction hyper powered beasts to increase his strength...

[SuperSabin]

i think ultimecia was pretty powerful, then again aren't all the others equally powerful? eve..er..ultimecia had the power to control mitochondr..uh compress time and she caused alot of people to *cough*spontaiouslycombust*cough* oh i mean suffer. So yeah shes pretty dangerous alright.

[Heartless Angel]

Cloud didn't really defeat Seph in combat. In Crisis Core, you see that first Cloud stabbed him in the back while he wasn't paying attention AFTER Seph just got done with two back to back epic battles with Zack (Who I think actually could've beaten Seph at some point had he not been kiilled by the army. Zack was actually in Seph's weight class, unlike any of VII's party who had to fight 8 on 1 with the advantage of Holy and Lifestream Lasers just to achieve a temporary victory. Zack could actually go toe to toe with Genesis and Angeal, and eventually surpass them, putting him near par with Seph.) Cloud's "strength" here was the ability to not die from Seph's attack. He only managed to overpower him because he was injured at the time, which he wasn't at the end of VII.

Squall was definitely skilled as I said. But even mastering a complicated weapon is negligible in the face of a witch who can bend time over and make it her bitch. I don't care how awesome your sword is, there's no reason for that to be able to compete with being able to play with the fabrics of the universe >.<

All those trance abilities are game mechanics, I'm talking storyline. None of their trances gives them planet smashing power, except possibly Garnets, since we've seen what Eidolons can do in that game. Kuja was already ridiculously powerful, Trance just made it moreso. Zidane never even demonstrated through storyline actions hthat he could've competed with NON trance Kuja, let alone TRANCE Kuja or Death itself.

I don't think Auron DID hold back to be honest. Which is why while Tidus was taking 3 turns to drop sinscales, Auron was demolishing them in one shot, or demolishing like, 6 in one shot just for an Overdrive demo. In terms of game mechanics, yeah, he was hitting low numbers, but in story terms, he was a legendary guardian whereas Tidus was a noob with an above average build due to being an athlete. I doubt if I handed Peyton Manning a sword, his football skills and strength he built up for football would allow him to combat city smashing monsters. Similarly, if not for having a Legendary Guardian next to him, I dobut Tidus would've lived to see Spira. Similarly, I think Wakka and Lulu were also much stronger in terms of story than in terms of game mechanics. Tidus can already outhit Wakka at the beginning of the game, yet Wakka refers to him as a newbie when it comes to fighting. For storyline purposes, I absolutely believe Wakka was stronger for most of the game, until Tidus' experience caught up with Wakka's. By the end, I believe he did surpass Wakka and Lulu, as Lulu acknowledges he's proven himself as a guardian, perhaps even the BEST guardian... but still, if that was all it took to bring down Sin, summoners wouldn't have been sacrificing themselves for the Final Aeon for a millenium. Shit like Operation Mihen would've been enough to put an end to him.

In AC, you can very clearly see that Seph is just ****ing around. Cloud is pissed off, putting everythig into every blow, getting batted around like an insect, thrown against walls and being impaled (intentionally in a non-fatal area). He was giving it his all. His all just wasn't enough until he hit Deux Ex Machina Limit Break.

Before Jecht even went into BFA form, he explicitly told Tidus that he would be incapable of holding back once he changed. Jecht wasn't a villain, he had no reason to lie here.