The day the ID died

[che]

You're wrong.

I wish caps lock worked in posts.

I see your point, but I believe we are both correct, in a way.

source: Clearer/ more clear- explained! - Creative | Learn English at EnglishCafe

[SOLDIER #819]

See what sourcing does? Let's all pay attention to Chad.

[DragonHeart]

Basically, allow GC-style conversation into ID topics, right? That's kind of what I was getting at as well. As it is now, ID discussions are very, well, stiff. This is probably a poor analogy, but I get the same feeling entering ID as I do walking into a really rich person's house. Even if I was invited, I just can't feel comfortable because I feel like I need to show my absolute best. Then it's just too formal and awkward and it sucks.

I do believe relaxing the atmosphere would help quite a bit. There's no reason why one thread can't have both casual discussion and lengthy back and forth debate. Let people post at their comfort level, don't try to make a posting style into a rule.

As far as actual ID topics, we've always had politics and sciences and religion in there, but I've always thought it would be a good place for news/current events as well. Most of those go in GC right now, that I've seen anyways.

~DragonHeart~

[Meier Link]

Basically, allow GC-style conversation into ID topics, right? That's kind of what I was getting at as well. As it is now, ID discussions are very, well, stiff. This is probably a poor analogy, but I get the same feeling entering ID as I do walking into a really rich person's house. Even if I was invited, I just can't feel comfortable because I feel like I need to show my absolute best. Then it's just too formal and awkward and it sucks.

I do believe relaxing the atmosphere would help quite a bit. There's no reason why one thread can't have both casual discussion and lengthy back and forth debate. Let people post at their comfort level, don't try to make a posting style into a rule.

As far as actual ID topics, we've always had politics and sciences and religion in there, but I've always thought it would be a good place for news/current events as well. Most of those go in GC right now, that I've seen anyways.

~DragonHeart~

Who says that there can't be a GC-style tones to posts in ID? I never have said that it was not allowed and as far as I know neither did Chez in her tenure.

It would be the members that have set the standard of what the ideal threads and posting habits are in the ID forum.

I think discussing news in the ID forum is perfectly acceptable, actually I encourage it.

Meh, now I am to lazy to multi quote everyone that I want to address.

Alpha- did you see the edit to my previous post?

Nathan - Tiffany is correct in saying that undertones could be interpreted / misconstrued by the writer or the reader. To actually moderate those style misinterpretations / construed statements is way to difficult. If someone reports it as offensive then the offender had better to expect to hear from me in one form or another for further clarifications.

Blatant rule violations will be warned accordingly.

Soldier - I agree that sourcing is a necessity for an intellectual discussion but most people on here prefer to take the easy way out. Also the one paragraph limitation was to keep a standard in place for a post, if someone is knowingly posting ID shouldn't a certain amount of intelectt an thought be put into a post?

In reality one paragraph is not asking a whole lot of TFF members to post and it helps to force people into explaining their thoughts on an issue a little further.

Merlin - I agree with you on the topic of statistics, they are biased and most of the time very inaccurate.

Gweeh I am cutting the rest of my post short, I am sure I am going to have to respond to enough questions from this post alone with out adding more to it for now.

Sorry if some of this is unclear, been meaning to get back to this thread for a few days now. Today I have been sick as hell and my mind is not functioning properly when it comes to what think and what I trying to say.

[Alpha]

This one Meier?

:edit: Alpha I like you idea about making a sourcing center for brain storming ideas for the ID forum. The one thing I disagree with is the making a club or social group. This could be resolved in a thread in the ID forum. I will sticky it and myself and the creator of the thread can edit the OP to give updates. For this I actually suggest you, Alpha, to make the thread. As of now you seem to be one of the main contributors to the ID forum and I think with you originating the thread and my help keeping the OP current, it could work. Plus once an idea is set and a thread is made I can delete the posts to keep the thread smaller and easier to navigate.

If you don't want this responsibility, I can set it up. The down fall to this is that I would be the only one able to maintain the whole thread including the OP.

I'll see if I can do it tonight. I was planning on using this thread to get people thinking and talking, and to create some pre-emptive action. I'm not going to be very active (read: not online) for the next few weeks (University exams, FML), but after that I'll have four months to work on this. So, I'll either do it today or tomorrow, or in a few weeks. But I will do it. I like the idea of a stickied thread a bit more; nice work.

With regards to Silver's mention of 'undertones'... how many people actually report posts when they feel 'harassed'? More than likely, people will respond to a certain attitude with the same attitude. I'm guilty of this myself on occasion. I think a more pre-emptive approach on behalf of mods could help, but I acknowledge the difficulty in that. So, in addition, we need to encourage people to:
a) NOT post in that manner to begin with; and
b) NOT reply in a aggressive-defensive manner to these posts.
Say something to the effect of "I don't appreciate the tone you are using. I will not use that same tone." And then see if there is anything from their post that you can pull out as contributing to the discussion. None of this 'kid' stuff anymore. No one enjoys that, as has been made clear.

I see your point, Soldier (and DH), about having "smart" topics in ID, with any applicable style of posting attendant to it. I think that is a good guideline: "ID is for 'intellectual' topics*, but the style of post is not the determining factor". I would add that I think the one-paragraph limit is adequate and necessary. As Meier argued, one paragraph is not asking much, and ensures at least some explanation of the reasoning that has gone on in the poster's mind, which, by virtue of the power of reading (!) enters ours, and, hopefully, makes us think. That is really the point of ID: to make us think. It's not a competition. It is not win-lose. We should be trying to expand our horizons. It's fine to disagree, but understand the other perspective/s. Everything is reasonable, and it's a simple courtesy to other people -- and advantageous for you -- to understand them and appreciate them, rather than destroying and belittling them.

------------------------------------------

* Question for further expansion: What is an "ID topic"?

I think it is a topic that could be considered critically and analytically. For example, 'what is your favourite spread to use on toast'? Is prime GC content. You can discuss what people's favourites are, and disagree, and explain why you like Vegemite and not raspberry jam. But you can't think critically about why Vegemite is better than jam. There are no innate weaknesses or advantages. No room for compromise.

(Or perhaps there are? Vegemite is harder to spread. It's Australian (lol). You could compromise by cutting a piece of toast in half and using both spreads.)

A more critical discussion could be around, for a clear example, politics. Why or why not a certain proposition will achieve its objectives. Why you don't think it should be passed. What the implications of it going ahead may be.

Admittedly, the distinction is not clear. Actually, it is probably possible to discuss any topic in either sub-forum. So what is an "ID topic", to you?

[DragonHeart]

That's actually pretty tough to define. It's one of those things, I know it when I see it. I guess the closest I can come is any topic that has a wider context. Some threads that are currently in GC are ones I would define as ID topics, like the 9/11 thread and the one about natural disasters. They're not as lighthearted as normal GC discussions and have ramifications on a large scale.

~DragonHeart~

[Tiffany]

So what is an "ID topic", to you?

It isn't that complicated for me. An ID Topic is something where I personally expect a bit of thought and effort put into their posts. It doesn't have to be several huge paragraphs or anything, but something where you know you can post a topic and not have silly, random comments thrown in, or pictures posted instead of replies. (No offence, peeps).

I also don't personally feel that people have to be experts to post. I like hearing other people's opinions, even if at times I don't agree with them.

[SOLDIER #819]

Soldier - I agree that sourcing is a necessity for an intellectual discussion but most people on here prefer to take the easy way out.

Yeah, I never seriously expected people to cite. I think it'd help stop unnecessary dissection (as people will question anything and everything once they get rolling), but it'd be ridiculous as a rule.

Also the one paragraph limitation was to keep a standard in place for a post, if someone is knowingly posting ID shouldn't a certain amount of intelectt an thought be put into a post?

Post length shouldn't be equated to "intellect" or "thought." One good aphorism can spark as much debate as any 5-paragraph post and is much more likely to be read (and therefore much more likely to be replied to).

The members here are very capable of posting a paragraph and WILL do so without them being told to do so. I think GC has demonstrated this well enough (... surprisingly so, given the subject matter). That, however, is only provided they feel comfortable. If the forum is made to seem like its "serious business" then people are more likely sit and watch from the sidelines. Whether intentional or not, a rule that imposes a minimum length only reinforces that perception.

[Chez Daja]

ID died because I stopped being the mod.

Just kidding. T.G Oskar has the right idea:

The biggest problem with ID is that the topics are intimidating. There's a looming aura of "you better have a solid answer, or else your post will get dissected and ripped into kingdom come" in the thread that definitely shuns most people who might be willing to make a civilized topic about...anything, really.

Compare ID with General Chat: both have similar trends in which you can speak of mostly anything, but while you can expect GC to get either silly or great, but definitely light-hearted answers, in ID any discussion can end up in a veritable intellectual conflict. Another is that ID is mostly a debate topic, while GC is mostly considered an opinion topic: in GC, you aren't expected to defend your position, while on ID it is almost a mistake to enter the terrain unprepared.

In a nutshell: ID is scary, and people don't want to enter where things are scary, especially on a forum that can't take itself very seriously sometimes. It would be the same with Informal and Structured Roleplaying: one is to be taken lightheartedly, while the other has to be taken seriously. Same as old-school RPGs when there were great warriors: those were really, really serious and carefully thought out.

But hey, don't worry: perhaps by posting clever topics, you might reach a theme that people can emphasize with. But people certainly don't want to see a debate where the opinions of people may and will be challenged, and that is both the charm and the bane of ID. Certainly, ID wouldn't be the same without it, but it will remain intimidating nonetheless.

[Alpha]

I want to revive this discussion again, now that I have some time to work on any suggested ideas. In case you've missed it: http://thefinalfantasy.net/forums/in...ml#post1284565

Suggestions about how I could improve/clarify/etc. that OP are more than welcome.

I've read through all the posts carefully again, but my creativity is apparently low. The only thing I can think of is that opportunities to foster explicitly constructive discussion have been slim. More discussions? (Eh, I hope this isn't turning into "let's just go make threads" suggestion -- although that would not actually be a bad idea; I just feel we are capable of more complexity and originality.)

[DragonHeart]

Hmm...how about a resource thread? There are probably topics people may want to discuss but aren't really knowledgeable about. And yes, people are lazy. So why not make it easier? I'm not talking putting up links for every single topic discussed in ID but maybe more general resources, like Factcheck, Project Vote Smart, etc. The flipside being that it can then be reasonably expected in discussions that people will cite and link to their sources in debates. It would also help out the people who take on topic suggestions from the thread.

Let's see...maybe a "Happening Today" or "In the News" type of feature? Every day anyone who finds something interesting going on in the world can link to it with a comment or two. Big topics that foster lots of discussion can be split into new ID threads.

~DragonHeart~

[Meier Link]

Hmm...how about a resource thread? There are probably topics people may want to discuss but aren't really knowledgeable about. And yes, people are lazy. So why not make it easier? I'm not talking putting up links for every single topic discussed in ID but maybe more general resources, like Factcheck, Project Vote Smart, etc. The flipside being that it can then be reasonably expected in discussions that people will cite and link to their sources in debates. It would also help out the people who take on topic suggestions from the thread.

Let's see...maybe a "Happening Today" or "In the News" type of feature? Every day anyone who finds something interesting going on in the world can link to it with a comment or two. Big topics that foster lots of discussion can be split into new ID threads.

~DragonHeart~

I have no objection to this either. Just had to put that out there. If the resource thread is done up well enough I will sticky it also. Even if it isn't I will probably still sticky it and let people put up links to reliable sources for information. Then again the links will also be monitored.

[Alpha]

Hmm...how about a resource thread? There are probably topics people may want to discuss but aren't really knowledgeable about. And yes, people are lazy. So why not make it easier? I'm not talking putting up links for every single topic discussed in ID but maybe more general resources, like Factcheck, Project Vote Smart, etc. The flipside being that it can then be reasonably expected in discussions that people will cite and link to their sources in debates. It would also help out the people who take on topic suggestions from the thread.

So like a thread with links to websites with information that people can investigate for themselves? Sounds interesting, but it would rely on the quality and usability of any suggested sites. I'm about to go look into this Project Vote Smart a little bit more; do you have any other (specific?) suggestions?

Let's see...maybe a "Happening Today" or "In the News" type of feature? Every day anyone who finds something interesting going on in the world can link to it with a comment or two. Big topics that foster lots of discussion can be split into new ID threads.

I really, really, really like this idea. Let me know if I'm on the same track: a semi-informal thread where you can post about a current event on whim. For instance, someone could just link a news page, and give a couple of words/sentences/paragraphs on their thoughts about it. Each new 'event' need not even come with an expectation of anyone replying -- it's just a space to air quick thoughts. If discussions develop, they can migrate to their own thread, or stay brief and contained within this thread.

If that's what you're getting at, then I think that's fantastic. It reaches right across many of the concerns raised in this very thread about the adversarial nature of discussions; it seems like it would carry no expectation of 'being an expert'; and so on and so forth.

Do you want to expand on this idea, DH? Or does anyone else have an interpretation of it? I think this could be a goer very soon.

[Rocky]

Let's see...maybe a "Happening Today" or "In the News" type of feature? Every day anyone who finds something interesting going on in the world can link to it with a comment or two. Big topics that foster lots of discussion can be split into new ID threads.

I'm also in agreeance with this. Personally this would encourage me to post more since I like to look up rather obscure world events, and topics like these are easy and fun to post on, moreso than just a general "what do you think about Abortion".

[DragonHeart]

You pretty much expanded it out for me Alpha, that's exactly what I'm saying. If we had a few less formal, more general topics ID may not be so intimidating. Besides, there's a lot of topics out there that are interesting but aren't really strong enough to base a thread on.

Let's see, I mentioned Vote Smart and Factcheck, which are both politically oriented. There's Citizendium, which is Wiki with standards. There's the Encyclopedia of Life, which is mainly about animals and covers major disasters like the Deepwater Horizon and its affect on various species. Reason.tv, which covers a lot of ground with a focus mainly on politics and current events. (Check out Drew Carey's video series. Seriously.) The National Criminal Justice Reference Service, pretty self explanatory.

If I had my bookmarks in any semblance of organization I'd keep going, I think that's a decent start though. I'll add more as I think of them.

~DragonHeart~

[Alpha]

Let's see...maybe a "Happening Today" or "In the News" type of feature? Every day anyone who finds something interesting going on in the world can link to it with a comment or two. Big topics that foster lots of discussion can be split into new ID threads.

...a semi-informal thread where you can post about a current event on whim. For instance, someone could just link a news page, and give a couple of words/sentences/paragraphs on their thoughts about it. Each new 'event' need not even come with an expectation of anyone replying -- it's just a space to air quick thoughts. If discussions develop, they can migrate to their own thread, or stay brief and contained within this thread.

[This suggestion] reaches right across many of the concerns raised in this very thread about the adversarial nature of discussions; it seems like it would carry no expectation of 'being an expert'; and so on and so forth.

If we had a few less formal, more general topics ID may not be so intimidating. Besides, there's a lot of topics out there that are interesting but aren't really strong enough to base a thread on.

I think this is fantastic, and I wonder if you would be willing to write up an OP for it, DH?

Just putting it out there, because we've really only seen Meier and Rocky put their 2 cents in so far... are there any more comments on this suggestion? I even used bold and red to draw attention to it! And I saved you the inconvenience of having to scroll back up! If there's nothing else added, I think you should go ahead, DH, if you want. Up to Meier if it's to be stickied, of course.

Haven't got the time to look in depth at those sites at the moment, but from the number you got there (particularly the breadth), that sounds like a pretty good suggestion also.

[Furore]

I like your ideas, but I have noticed one other little problem - many of the old regulars either seem to have left or have become much more infrequent in posting. No matter how much you improve the section, it'll likely crash and burn without active participants leading me to think perhaps we need to entice some of those members back somehow OR find a way to get some new intellectual types in somehow.

A similar thing seems to happen with most of the attempted resurrections of RP sections...

[DragonHeart]

It's pretty much a problem across the entire board. I'm not entirely sure why but it seems like our active community stays the same for years at a time. Then in a short period there'll be a mass leaving and newer people will form a new community core. The number of regular, active members doesn't seem to change much from year to year.

~DragonHeart~

[Furore]

I was talking ID rather then the forum as a whole.
The newer members don't often seem to give ID (and some other sections) a go.
I'd ID post more myself, but I'm lucky to get behind one of my PCs once a week now and my iPhone don't cut it for long posts...

[GypsyElder]

I was talking ID rather then the forum as a whole.
The newer members don't often seem to give ID (and some other sections) a go.

I'm going to go ahead and put my two and a half cents in here.

Imo, even if we're talking about boosting ID itself I don't think it's going to happen with the overall forum activity being so low. I hate to bring it up again, but I don't even think the problem is so much that people don't want to post in ID for a reason like it's "intimidating". Even if that might be the case for the few people that are here, ID topics just might not be their thing. If there were more members then it wouldn't seem like people are purposely avoiding ID forum since there would be more people that are open for a healthy debate. It could just be that with the few that are here, the majority are just not into it.

I do agree that there are smaller issues with ID itself like the "quoting game" that goes on where it's like nit picking every word of your post instead of responding to the overall idea. (That's just what I've noticed anyway) that might be pushing people away, but I don't think there's enough people here to really say that's the issue.

If you think about the flow of any forum, the majority of the post would probably go to other areas like gen chat, word games etc. anyway. It probably just seems like ID is incredibly thirsty for activity since we don't have that much to spread around anyway.

I'm not against trying to make ID more attractive and more comfortable for everyone to post in, but I don't think all the effort made will make a significant difference....Kind of like the forum :s

Sorry to be so negative.

[DragonHeart]

That is pretty much the crux of the matter, Gypsy. I've never really figured out why but over the past few years membership registration has slowed way down. Used to be, you couldn't post in a single thread without tripping over at least 2 or 3 different newbies. I think we've actually gotten to the point where the community is pretty much in a static state. I know it's not because forums are less popular, as the other one I frequent is a massive, thriving monster.

I've been wondering if maybe we're too niche, especially with a younger generation of gamers who are starting on current gen consoles. RPGs do seem to be falling out of favor these days. I look at my PS3 library and I've got maybe 3 classic turn-based party RPGs. The rest are either first/third person or action hybrids (or both). Yes, the classic games are fun but most of us who grew up playing them don't have as much time or inclination to keep replaying and discussing the same games over and over again. Classic as they may be, it seems that older games are rapidly becoming obsolete.

This also creates somewhat of a paradox, I think. Because we have so many people who have been here for two or three or more years, it's gotten to the point where no topic is really new. Without newer members around to bring up old topics we've already discussed to death (but they haven't) or to talk about things we haven't, everyone pretty much runs out of things to say eventually. Thus, no activity. It does get boring when you can predict who's going to say what in any given thread. Unfortunately, without activity you won't attract new members, perpetuating the cycle into infinity.

~DragonHeart~

[Pete]

I think there are a few problems with ID, and it really is everyone's fault at different stages.

On one hand, topics have been done to death. There have been topics on just about everything, and some topics have been deemed too risque or inappropriate for the TFF community.

This isn't really anyone's fault, except that people don't want to talk about the same things over again. The same topics usually lead to the same few people reviving the same old arguments, with the same standpoints. A lot of it also lies in the fact that some of us stand very firmly in our beliefs, and nothing will change that. This goes especially in hand with religion, and anything to do with life or death matters. Once two people with such opposing viewpoints jump into the thread and find each other, it just becomes a barrage of whatever supporting evidence they can find, which is good, since evidence always helps to prove a point, but it's also horrible when it's something based on belief, such as religion.

"Well, this is a fact because it's in the Bible, and the Bible is the word of God, and God can't be wrong, so I'm right."


I also think that a lot of the problems lie in the fact that ID can become hostile very quickly, and it's quite frankly annoying when you write up what you feel is a well-thought response, and it gets picked apart letter by letter in quote blocks. You do that a few times, having to defend why you chose a semicolon instead of a comma, and it becomes disheartening.

Laziness is also a factor. When you jump into a debate when it's already a few pages deep, full of lengthy posts, you really have to read through them all to fully grasp the concepts at hand, the standpoints, and what's already been said. It takes time, and I think a lot of people can't be bothered by it.

I think that maybe, we should try to wean ID threads into general chat, at least for a starter, and then use that to ease people into ID. Yknow, maybe throw a few topics into GC that could provoke some thought, and if it gets heated, or actually intellectually stimulating, maybe suggest moving it to ID, or suggest people check out the ID board for more.

If anything, we should have a new ID rule, where the quoting game is out. People start quoting sentences before they fully grasp the entire point a person's trying to make. Plus, it annoys me and is a endless loop of nonsense.

[GypsyElder]

[...]A lot of it also lies in the fact that some of us stand very firmly in our beliefs, and nothing will change that. This goes especially in hand with religion, and anything to do with life or death matters. Once two people with such opposing viewpoints jump into the thread and find each other, it just becomes a barrage of whatever supporting evidence they can find, which is good, since evidence always helps to prove a point, but it's also horrible when it's something based on belief, such as religion.

that's what makes it a debate forum
I don't think there's a problem with standing your ground on a subject since the point of ID isn't really to make you change your mind ( since of course, most people won't and that's not their intention going into ID) so it's going to be just a plethora of evidence on "why I think I'm right and you're wrong" (of course not everything has to be debatable)

Laziness is also a factor. When you jump into a debate when it's already a few pages deep, full of lengthy posts, you really have to read through them all to fully grasp the concepts at hand, the standpoints, and what's already been said. It takes time, and I think a lot of people can't be bothered by it.

I think that maybe, we should try to wean ID threads into general chat, at least for a starter, and then use that to ease people into ID. Yknow, maybe throw a few topics into GC that could provoke some thought, and if it gets heated, or actually intellectually stimulating, maybe suggest moving it to ID, or suggest people check out the ID board for more.

If anything, we should have a new ID rule, where the quoting game is out. People start quoting sentences before they fully grasp the entire point a person's trying to make. Plus, it annoys me and is a endless loop of nonsense.

I think if a person really doesn't want to read through everything then they're probably the kind of person I was talking about when I said "ID probably isn't their thing"

It's supposed to be well thought out which is what makes post so lengthy. It's harder to type out your thoughts and have the readers fully understand what you're trying to say through text.

Imo, people shouldn't have to be eased into ID because if they were interested enough in the topic or knew enough about it they would just post. If they're not interested then they don't post. I still think it's an activity issue across the board.

Just my thoughts :3

[Alpha]

Well, Gypsy, the idealist in me tells me to try anyway. Better to try and fail than to not try at all.

@Pete: re: topics being "done to death": that is where, hopefully, a suggestion thread comes in handy. Really what is needed is creativity. Thinking outside of the square to discuss things that haven't been broached here before, or people don't consider on a day to day basis. I know for me, once I read about robot rights for the first time, I became pretty fascinated with the idea. Sounded like a good candidate for a new thread to me, so I made it.

@DragonHeart: Any update on the 'current events/quick thoughts' thread? Again, I'm willing to make it, but only if you give me the go ahead and if you don't want to.

EDIT: Sorry for the delay. Not that this actually requires my input, but I did start it and haven't said anything for some time. Just been enjoying my summer break a little too much. Sunburn, ouch.