Phoenix Downs......

[Tidus613]

Im sure this topic has been done to death, but im new to this forum/website. I think I have found a logical explanation as to why Phoenix Downs dont work in cutscenes (you all know what I mean). I believe that the phoenix feather is only potent while in combat and suffering a fatal injury while in battle. Since Aeris died by sephiroths sword and was not in an active battle but was more or less killed by a guerilla sneaky attack the phoenix down wont work. And i also believe that death in battle is not really death but more or less a fatal injury that really takes your life after the battle is finished. Its a crazy theory but I would like to hear some opinions on the subject. I also think that the phoenix down is put into or on your wound

[noxious.sunshine]

What the hell is this crazy talk?

I kid.

That's actually an interesting theory, though.

*giggles* guerilla sneaky attack. Oh wow.

[Dawezy]

I've always thought of Phoenix Down on the same level as Medi-Gel in the Mass Effect series.

It'll do the baseline healing / recovery from being pummeled and slashed up and shot along the surface, but it won't exactly patch up a gaping hole through your chest.. i.e severe trauma.

That being said in theory our maiden Masamune victim COULD have been patched up by a Phoenix Down but she probably wouldn't be able to walk again. But hey this was all for the story unfortunately so for the good of the planet there had to be sacrifices.

EDIT: Also I should edit the topic header for spoilers I think.

[Tidus613]

thank you lol.

[noxious.sunshine]

I hated Aeris anyway. She was a drag on the group. And a hurr.

~ AUTO-MERGED POSTS ~

BTDubs, you should go North and introduce yourself ^_^

[Tidus613]

wow thats a little harsh. She was a cutie though lol. And she always smelled like fresh flowers

[noxious.sunshine]

What? I cried more when Cait Sith jumped in the Temple ... And felt no emotion when Sephiroth got Aeris.

[Tidus613]

LOL, If I lived in the world of FF7 Cait Sith would be my best friend. I love to gamble and play cards and bet on the horses (in this case chocobos) btw i requested u as a friend u seem cool. and ur a pretty young lady

[Freya]

Guys, please try to stick to the topic, some of your talk is rather off-topic, especially the 4th posting in this thread. Thank you.


As for the topic:
I'd also say that phoenix downs don't revive someone but rather heal fatal injuries. (Just because your HPs are 0, doesn't mean you're dead. They're just falling to the ground, could be because they fainted, could be because they died )
But was there even someone near Aerith when it happened? Could there have been someone to throw a phoenix down at her?


I also like Dawezy's theory, though I haven't played Mass Effect yet.

[Tidus613]

i understand, sorry mod. But I think my theory is exactly what u said. 0 HP means ur fatally wounded and that is what the PD can fix. But in terms of revival NOTHING can reverse death. Castlevania Lords of Shadow made that perfectly clear and all the FFs make it clear in some way. PD is a wild card to keep you going. Like a Senzu Bean from Dragon Ball Z

[Unknown Entity]

I've never looked at Phoenix Down's bringing people back from the dead. If someone in my party falls in battle, I view it as a KO (knock out). Phoenix mythology states that tears have healing powers. If you're dead, there's not really much to heal now, is there? It's used to heal wounds and battle scrapes.

In the case with Aeris, I'm pretty sure she was dead before she hit the ground, as she didn't have any final words. It was too late for the Phoenix Downs.

T'is a shame they weren't carrying GameShark tears. I hear they work wonders on the dead.

[Tidus613]

Completely agree with you. As I said Phoenix Downs do not bring back from the dead contrary to popular belief. ALTHOUGH there can be an exception when you are hit with DOOM or DEATH. Then I say it can be debatable.

[loaf]

Have you guys ever just READ the description for Phoenix Downs in any of the games? It says revives a Fallen or KO party member. Nowhere does it say Dead.

There has been a thread before, I remember answering it....but this was a long time ago.

[Tidus613]

I know its definition. But they blur the line when they say FALLEN, or KO. Fallen in my mind means DEAD. Like I said its debateable and i just wanted to hear everyones opinion. But lets face it would u want to rub a phoenix' butt feathers on your wound. Birds are dirty creatures so im sure theres some bacteria lol

[loaf]

KO is knocked out. That's one of the ways you lose a boxing match. I've fallen and can't get up? Is a phrase people have said and since they said it they aren't dead. I'm not going to debate on a topic I've done to many times to just do it all again.

[Tidus613]

we all know what KO is. But in this sense the term fallen means dead, Or are u saying i fallen over my shoelace and i need PD to get me up. And were all not here to argue, this is a good ol fashioned Final Fantasy convo and im enjoying it.

~ AUTO-MERGED POSTS ~

Or I can end the whole topic now and say Phoenix Downs are awesome. Cheap to buy, great results, feel soft and fluffy, and can tickle mighty fine

[noxious.sunshine]

There is another exception in which PDs do -not- work.

FF12 - When you fight the Demon Wall. If you get X-Worlded or whatever, your character is -dunzo- until you beat it. Not sure if there's any other cases like that, but considering you can't switch parties in 13 and 13-2 only has 2 characters, I assume so.

[Tidus613]

I repeat, PHOENIX DOWNS ARE GOOD LOL

[Unknown Entity]

There is another exception in which PDs do -not- work.

FF12 - When you fight the Demon Wall. If you get X-Worlded or whatever, your character is -dunzo- until you beat it. Not sure if there's any other cases like that, but considering you can't switch parties in 13 and 13-2 only has 2 characters, I assume so.

X-Zone. I believe it sends the party member to "another dimension" through a void or something, and I thought could only be removed by hitting a save point or leaving the area, but I might be wrong.

Even the Status Aliments part of the Wiki refers to characters being KO'd, and not dead.

[Kurt Zisa]

It's a nice enough theory but i've always seen the reason why characters die/don't die in cutscenes is becuase the plot dictates what will happen to them.

Or I can end the whole topic now and say Phoenix Downs are awesome. Cheap to buy, great results, feel soft and fluffy, and can tickle mighty fine

Only in the newer games, I think. They used to be at least 1000 gil in some games, if you could even buy them at all (lookin' at you FFIII).

[noxious.sunshine]

Oh yeah, you're right. Hitting the save point is what you gotta do to fix that. And I think the nearest one from the first Demon Wall is back at the entrance to Raithwall's Tomb, isn't it? Cuz you have to go back to the waystone and teleport to the entrance.. Or at least that's what a walkthrough told me. I don't think you can just exit the area and the character will come back, come to think of it. It's been awhile since I've played through that part, so I can't remember.

[Kurt Zisa]

On a side note, it wasn't until I read the item description in XII that I realised it literally meant 'the Down of a Phoenix'. I used to think it was just a random name, but I can be pretty thick sometimes.

[Tidus613]

Im enjoying all the responses to my simple theory. It kinda makes ya think. Ive come to the conclusion that cutscenes are treated as if items dont exist. When did you ever see Cloud take a sip of a potion after getting smacked around by Sephiroth or the Turks, or Ultima weapon. NEVER. Hence items DO NOT EXIST in the cutscenes EVER.

[Alpha]

Similar deal in Bevelle in FFX when the party battles through waves of guards, followed by a cutscene in which they are held up by a group of the very same guards. Cutscenes are essentially a dramatic device. Phoenix downs are an aspect of gameplay. They rarely intersect.

[Tidus613]

NO really lol. I say this nicely but i feel insulted the way you phrased it. 2400+ games and hundreds of RPGs later I do know how it works. Im not starting a fight or anything, and maybe im just misinterpreting the way you phrased it. But I feel it is silly how the logic doesnt work in RPGs

[Ryu-Kentoshii Hirokima]

Not sure if there's any other cases like that, but considering you can't switch parties in 13 and 13-2 only has 2 characters, I assume so.

Okay, just to clarify things, in FFXIII you CAN switch Parties...Just cannot do it 'till the end of Chapter 9...XD How do I know this? I actually played the game to the end, and re-played it cause I enjoyed it, and was really fun ^_^

[Tidus613]

I loved FF13. Yeah they hold ur hand and change ur diapers till CH11 but i enjoyed the game. 13-2 was also awesome.

[Michael Swayne]

I have to agree that Phoenix Downs are merely used as a second wind. You get another chance, whether to see you become KO'd again or be victorious is up to you.

It's a pity Aeris/th and the Final Fantasy VII party weren't on Dezo (Phantasy Star II), then Cloud could just take her over to the nearest Clone Lab and have a fully-functioning replica made. Of course, you'd have to deal with looking at this

while she is being made.

[SOLDIER #819]

Smelling salts yo. When someone gets knocked out, you use something to that effect to revive them (reviving not having to mean bringing something back from the dead). That is why they are still in a critical state even after using them. The phoenix stank is enough to bring them back to consciousness, but not much more.

HP being at 0 doesn't necessarily have to mean death, and this holds true in many RPGs nowadays. In D&D 1st Ed, which FFI seems to have drawn from somewhat it would seem, you were knocked out at 0, dead at -10. In D&D 2nd Ed they changed 0 to represent death, but editions since have not used it like that.

HP/hearts/health bars are a flimsy representation of a character's health -- but easy to implement and understand, which is why so many games use them. "Health" itself as a descriptor isn't very clear, as there is also stat damage, paralysis, etc., etc. If lack of HP were horribly life threatening then one night of rest at an inn wouldn't be able to cure it all anyway.

So really, this crap just doesn't make any sense, but it doesn't really matter so long as the game works.

[Tidus613]

no matter how you look at it, rubbing phoenix feathers on the cooley works wonders