Final Fantasy Timeline Theory!

[01habbo]

@OutlawTorn Yeah, and you're starting to troll me. If you don't like the concept of a timeline theory, then don't even look at the topic!

This is a discussion forum when you make a thread with a theory people are going to disagree. It should be expected as well we are all different with different opinions. The passion you have for you is admirable but none is attacking you personally.

Your theory has holes though you exclude geography and you pick and choose your games to suit your theory the side games are excluded. Dissidia has a strong story so actually it can be easily considered canon.

[mariosmentor]

@Andromeda In III, Xande has already succeeded in his plan, and 95% of the story is about reversing the crap he caused. It was also implied that he set his plan into motion at 1,000 years prior, more than enough time for Amon to have lived, created the Xande clones, and died.

I was referring to rule 4, how stuff that happened over 100 years ago can be shifted a bit. I highly doubt the whole backstory happened a few years ago.

I never said anything about the summons being the same entity every time. Look at the Bahamut from 10, for example. He's actually just a kid. I didn't know about the other Bahamuts from 7, as I haven't played it in years. Since they only appear in 7, it's easy for people to have forgotten about them. Take your pick which Bahamut was put in Dalamun.

[Andromeda]

Though I wasn't giving set amounts of years. I was just stating was the cutscene explains to us in XIV. I thought you were commenting on the events not playing out as explained rather than when they happened.

According the explanation, Amon sealed up the Crystal Tower and put everyone inside it to sleep waiting out until the Tower was freed from being buried inside the earth. So Amon never died, nor the resurrected Xande.

Also per the story, Xande was the founder of the Allagan Empire, which is a highly advanced civilization that would likely seem like something from a sci-fi book with their technological level. The Allagan Empire survived from the before the Tower existed until it was buried. Which means that all of that and it's hold on a significant part of the world would be pretty easily noticed. I don't recall seeing any sci-fi level Empire in III, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[mariosmentor]

@Andromeda Again, the so-called resurrected Xande was probably just a clone. The Crystal Tower was was probably sealed when Xande stopped time, unsealed by the Warriors of Light, and resealed by Amon alongside a surviving Xande clone. The cutscene appears to have never stated how long ago these events took place, so we should be able to assume that some of the details are different from what really happened. As for an techno empire in III........hmm.......the closest to that description would have to be Saronia Castle, as it's a HUMONGOUS kingdom. You know how some kingdoms have nearby villages? Saronia had FOUR, and they were each moderately sized towns, all of which seemed just slightly more technologically advanced than everywhere else in III. It was never said who founded the kingdom, so it could've been Xande. The fact that Saronia was also affected by Xande's flood of darkness, and that it's the closest civilization to the Crystal Tower further proves this theory.

[Andromeda]

When Xande was resurrected by Amon he was aware of his own death and morality. During the time that he was dead and then returned to life had changed his perspective on things. Originally, his plan was conquering the world. However, returned to life, he realized that the only truth was that no matter what one achieves in life, death would always take it all away. Thus, if humanity had nothing they could not have anything to lose. And so he changed his plans to flooding the world with darkness through his contract. This is learned directly from Xande himself, via the Echo which the adventurer has that literally allows them to see the past through others eyes, an accurate picture of it. Xande understands death having returned from it. Meaning it was the real Xande not a clone.

[mariosmentor]

@Andromeda ..............Well, after becoming totally confused about XIV's backstory, I did a little research to sort out my facts, and now I'm kinda sure this is how it all went:

1) Xande (somehow) founds Saronia, which would later evolve into Allag.
2) The events of III happen.
3) Amon comes along and revives Xande.
4) Xande signs a pact with the Cloud of Darkness, and modifies the Crystal Tower.
5) Xande finds one of the Bahamuts from VII, and creates Dalamud.
6) The events of XIV happen.

Also, I have a couple questions for you, not regarding the timeline.

1) Is XI still getting updates? There's not much info regarding a storyline for Seekers of Adoulin, or anything regarding a final boss for that particular expansion. Could it be that the entire story for Seekers of Adoulin hasn't been patched into the game yet?

2) Is there any way to play XIV 1.0, or do I have to use YouTube for that? I know all about how much of a failure it was, but I'm just wondering anyway, as I've heard that the stories between 1.0 and Realm Reborn were MUCH different.

[Andromeda]

Yes, FFXI receives monthly updates. One of the last updates had new story missions for Adoulin added. But yes, the Seekers of Adoulin storyline is an ongoing storyline. XIV is similar to that in a way, but it had more of an easier to read line when it ended for 2.0, but all patches end on cliffhangers, just like with XI.

There is no way to play 1.0, you have to watch the videos on youtube. 1.0 is canon to XIV, the stories are different because 2.0 isn't a retelling of 1.0's story, but a continuation. 1.0's story ended with Bahamut awaking and using Megaflare on Eorzea. 2.0 picks up 5 years later with the realm in recovery. Which is how things will work with 3.0. Which has been confirmed to have the Floating Continent reference from VI, so even more continued fanservice.

Why can't it be the standard Bahamut?

The Fan Festival gave some additional lore to the XIV world, as there was a lore panel. They explained that magic only exists in Eorzea due to the Twelve being disappointed in two of the three brothers, who were jealous of the bounty in Eorzea and separated becoming different land masses, continents. And the Twelve blessed the one lone brother with their gift giving them magic. Which is why the Garleans had to create machina and magitek in order to fight against the magic of Eorzea during their attempted conquest, as they were born in a realm with no magic.

The era before the current era, also so a major war between three nations that all had different magic focuses, which pitted White Magic against Black Magic with Scholars giving aid to the White Mages to defeat the Black Mages.

[mariosmentor]

@Andromeda The standard Bahamut could've been the one sealed in Dalamud, but the only way that could make sense would be if Xande was revived sometime between XI and XIV.

I'm actually not surprised that Eorzea has rather limited access to magic. In a way, it actually supports my “giant world” theory. If magic existed in the real world, there would be some parts of the world that have less magic than others. It would only be natural that there would be places like Eorzea, where only certain people could use magic.

[Andromeda]

Why would the normal Bahamut be a factor in the time when Xande was revived. There something special going on with Bahamut?

All of the continent that Eorzea is part of has magic. It is the other two continents that are not part of the continent that Eorzea is part of that lack magic. Though I don't understand how it supports anymore than anything else your giant world theory. Magic or no, it's not going to change if it is a giant world or a normal sized one.

[mariosmentor]

@Andromeda Bahamut plays a major role in XI, which takes place before XIV, so the only way the standard Bahamut could be sealed in Dalamud would be if it happened after the events of XI.

Theory support or not, the usage of magic and whatever restrictions apply in each game is irrelevant in the long run, as magic is really only meant to implement more strategy into battles. Some places have no magic whatsoever? That could make some interesting plot development later on.

[Andromeda]

Yeah, I know XI has a major plot in the Chains of Promathia. But I thought on your timeline that XI was before XIV as in fully before any events in XIV, not just before when the players played. If you're putting it before the players played, but still within recorded known time of XIV history, where are you placing it? Because if it is just before everything in XIV, then it would also still be before Bahamut was sealed away. If you're placing it within XIV's history then that introduces whole other can of worms.

[mariosmentor]

@Andromeda Uhh.............Oops? Apparently, I'm starting to confuse the both of us. I don't even know where I'm going with this Bahamut theory now. Let's just wrap it up with "Bahamut was sealed sometime between XI and XIV." Phew. Okay, any other things I need to clear up, or can I now explain the Emperor's involvement in each individual game?

[Andromeda]

I'm rather curious about this Emperor, mainly since it seems reliant on assuming that the guy repeatedly changing appearance, history, motives and names every game.

That's not to say I don't have plenty of other things to debate over. The only issue with the Emperor theory you previously stated was that it did not really leave any room for debate since none of it could be proven true or false.

Still curious.

[mariosmentor]

@Andromeda Essentially, the Emperor gained immortality when he became the Lord of Hell, and every single one of his incarnations have been bent towards destroying the world somehow, someway. How he does so varies from game to game. I could explain his actions in each game, but I don't the details for every game.

[Andromeda]

But not every game has the final boss' objective being destroy the world. Look at XII, it was just about a war and people in the wrong place at the right time. Is he just skipping on those games? And so far in XIV in the current time line, there is no one interested in destroying the world. The Garleans are just conquerors and the Ascians just want to revive the one true god. The Dragons are just in a war with Ishgard. Xande is the only one that wants to destroy anything and since he's already died once, he's not immortal and not your Emperor.

And aren't a number of the other major villains in the series' goals to become a god and then destroy or conquer the world? Why would the Emperor need to become a god like figure, if they already are? Sephiroth was just a standard overpowered soldier at the start before eventually gaining god like status. Ultimecia actually does die, since she passed on her spirit/powers/soul to Edea after her defeat.

[mariosmentor]

@Andromeda Like I said, I don't the exact details for every game. I'll tell you what I do know so far.

In VI, he reincarnates as Kefka, but due to a side effect from reincarnating, he has no memory of who he really is. When he was experimented on, he did indeed go crazy, but he possibly also remembered that he was the Emperor. This would explain why he sucked out the Warring Triad's power: He wanted to be a god again, unknowingly following his master plan to gain new powers.

In IX and I, he reincarnates as Garland, and his time loop plan not only came close to succeeding, but shows that Garland was the Emperor's most successful incarnation, as the events of XII are in reality the aftereffects of the resulting time paradox. This doesn't necessarily mean that XII never happened. Rather, it's more along the lines of "it happened, but at the same time, it didn't happen." By the end of I, there will be records alluding to Ivalice's war, but the details will never become clear. Seeing this result, the Emperor decided to try messing with time again, leading to the events of VIII. I don't know much about that game though, so I'm not sure how he falls into the formula this time around. Either way, by the end of VIII, he's become extremely weak, and is forced to regain his strength by using the Warring Triad, but since he couldn't as a god, he decides to do so as a human. Cue Kefka.

I know very little about XI and XIV, so I can't say for sure what he does in those games. Seeing how Realm Reborn hasn't been around too long, it's possible that the Emperor hasn't shown up yet at all. For example, in XI, until I know a little more, I'm assuming he becomes Eald'narche, who didn't appear until Rise of the Zilart.

As for VII, I'm actually in the middle of that game, so I'm not sure who the true villain would be. Sephiroth would be the obvious choice, but doesn't Jenova pull some strings from behind the scenes?

[Andromeda]

He's reincarnating as villains? I thought your theory was set on him being immortal and taking on the identities of the major villains from each other games.

You'll need to refresh my memory on how XII is the affect of a time paradox. The only games I know of dealing with time as a major plot point is VIII and XIII-2, the latter actually being about time paradoxes and VIII simply being about compressing all time.

In IX Garland isn't even the big bad, it's a toss up between Necron and Kuja. From a planning stand point Kuja is the big bad, but from a final boss stand point Necron is, convinced that Kuja's seeking destruction was the correct answer and planned to carry out that, but he's got zero back story or foreshadowing and largely disliked by the fandom in general because he doesn't make any sense being in the game.

VII gets a little convoluted at times. Sephiroth is running the show, but everyone with Jenova cells have uncontrollable urges to rejoin Jenova. He ends up using Jenova against the player as a boss to forestall them at one point. But Sephiroth is the prime figure and besides going a little insane learning the truth about the experiments, he was in charge of things even if he was just trying to be just like Jenova.

[mariosmentor]

@Andromeda The Emperor does indeed pass himself off as various villains throughout the series, but he'll occasionally reincarnate as a human, usually because he has no choice, like with Kefka.

Garland from I and IX are implied to be the same entity. Seeing how IX's antagonists are set up, here's two different scenarios regarding what could've happened.

1) Necron and Garland were both incarnations of the Emperor, and were secretly working together.
OR
2) Garland, knowing that he's actually the Emperor while creating Kuja and Zidane, transferred a bit of his soul to Kuja, which is why he wanted to destroy the world.

It could also be a combination of both theories, it's really up to you to decide.

What I meant about XII being a time paradox is that Garland's presence in IX was never meant to be, and as a result, he unknowingly sent shockwaves across the space-time continuum which would eventually cause the war in XII. After the end of I, historians wil find records of XII's war, but they'll also find records of an era of peace in Ivalice during the same time as the war, which wouldn't add up at all.

Since Sephiroth is the de facto big bad in VII, it seems safe to assume that the Emperor reincarnates as a human for the first time in this game, wanting to know what makes mortals so powerful. Also, so what if he reincarnates? He's still the Lord of Hell, and by the time he dies, his soul will become that of a god again.

[Andromeda]

According to your timeline, IX comes before I, but Garland dies in IX, so they couldn't be the same. And you're saying that the Emperor's soul split into two to reincarnation for one of your options? According to the Ultimania, Necron was summoned to Gaia by Kuja's despair, fear and hatred. So Necron is just a higher order being completely outside of the system. He also gives Zidane and party a pass after they defeat him amazed by their strength of will.

You'll need to explain why Garland wasn't supposed to be in IX creating this time paradox. This nothing that is hinted or explained in any way in IX. According the IX Ultimania, Garland was created by Terrans using him to save their planet and people. So where are you grabbing that he should not have be in the game, where in the story are you interpreting that?

As an aside, why did you pick the Emperor from II for this role of playing all of the villains? Quite a few villains succeed in reaching god or god-like status, so that your party gets to be a god slayer. Any one of them could have just as easily been doing the same that you are theorizing with the Emperor. And right since you're not giving details. I know you have II first, but Kefka becomes a god in VI, VI could have been first rather than II as I haven't seen a reason that II must be first yet other than you need it first to be the one that keeps popping up. But it is not a theory the other games support with the details you've provided yet.

[mariosmentor]

@Andromeda Uh-oh.............this seriously complicates things.......(insert research montage here) Okay, so IX is one of the games where the Emperor isn't involved at all. However, in IX, the elemental fiends were corrupted, right? So, sometime after IX, they will revive Garland from I, who in turn will send them to his era, creating the time paradox that creates Ivalice's war.

When I initially set up the timeline, I noticed that certain games began stringing together, but then abrptly cut themselves off from the rest of the series. For example, II, IV, X, and VII link together in that order, but then that's it. I arranged each "arc" to where they made the most sense, but that still left plot holes. What the timeline "arcs" needed was a common tie between them, a figure with the power to-Bah, I'll cut to the chase. The timeline didn't feel complete without some sort of uber villain. Since II was placed at the beginning, it seemed natural to give the Emperor that title.

By the way, the connection between II and IV is NOT Kain Highwind. The IV Ultimania guide stated that the world of IV used to be one large continent, just like II. Also, in IV, there's a Mysidian legend about a sage named Minwu who sealed magic just to later unseal it. Sounds a lot like a white mage in II named Minwu, who helps you unseal Ultima, the best spell in II.

[Andromeda]

But why is a time paradox even needed? You seem convinced it is necessary, but I don't know why you're set on it. What does it prevent when you don't have it and why does not having the time paradox prevent you from placing XII in your timeline?

And you're saying the elemental fiends that you defeat in IX stick around a very long time after IX is over and multiple other games passes to revive the same Garland from IX to become the Garland in I? Or revives a different Garland that is the one in I?

Your theory is contingent on the Emperor being this massive mastermind behind most things in most of the games. But you'd need some sort of foreshadow or hinting as a story teller to actually make that work for people to see. No such hints actually exist in any of the games that they are all the same person. And you just sort of admitted that after you pieced it all together that you felt there needed to be an uber villain and you settled on someone without anything in any of the games supporting this.

Setting aside the continued debates I've had on this, an uber villain isn't even necessary. If all of the games are connected as you say, there's no reason for some over arcing bad guy to be masterminding and failing repeatedly in all of the games. The timeline can still stand without there being a mastermind. Look at Earth world history, we have the rise and fall of Empires and "villains" all the time and history is still compelling and interesting. And if you're set on actually having one, one that makes more sense as it comes up more thematically in the games is Chaos, the embodiment of this sort of all consuming darkness that keeps seeking to end life. Chaos actually comes up in the first FF game and even in Lightning Returns. And you can even make a leap that the Cloud of Darkness is pretty much just Chaos. That has a cleaner tie thematically with the series as a whole than creating a super villain that has no supporting lore in any of the other games.

[mariosmentor]

@Andromeda Yes, I'm saying that the fiends in IX stick around, and they revive someone else who's coincidentally named Garland.

I thought that XII was so out-of-place compared to the rest of the series that a time paradox or something like that was necessary to explain its placement. Is this not the case?

The whole mastermind Emperor thing is just my personal preference. If you want to believe each villain is different, there's nothing stopping you. I was just explaining my reasoning as fully as possible.

[Andromeda]

The question is why you feel XII is out of place. I'm someone that believes none of the games are connected, so I'm not going to see problems where you're seeing them. So I don't know what your logic is on why it is out of place.

I just sort of believe if you're going to be saying something for part of your theory, that there should be something within the game to back it up. Making something up just because you want to be so is not strengthening your argument for why this is a possible.

[mariosmentor]

@Andromeda When I first started researching for my timeline theory, people on various forums were saying how it would be extremely difficult to place XII anywhere on a timeline as it had NO references to the rest of the series whatsoever. Were they exaggerating? Is there some sort of cameo or whatever in XII that I can work with? This seems to be what you're implying, so I'll just say NO PARADOX AT ALL.

[Kurt Zisa]

Well most of the espers in XII are named after previous villains. There's Exodus (Exdeath), Chaos, Zeromus, Mateus and Famfrit (who looks a lot like Exdeath) Zeromus even shares has the same element as his name bearer but I feel like they're just references rather than anything else.

And then you have Gilgamesh and Omega Mk.12 who are said to have traveled through the Rift or something similar.

Actually come to think of it the Gilgamesh you see in each game is heavily implied to be the same guy who's 'demention hopping' through the Rift. That's the only way I could see that these games are connected, through the Rift which allows those trapped in it to travel to different Universes or dementions. Although if Dissidia's to be believed it's entirely random in terms of the location and how long you're there. Once you're trapped in the Rift you can never really escape. Provided you haven't been killed by all the monsters yet.

[Andromeda]

One of the theories is as Kurt said, that Gilgamesh is a dimension hopping character. And that all Gilgameshs in every FF game are the same one just at different times in his life. There is even a line he has in one of the games that references something from I think his first appearance in V, but I'd have to double check, though it does give more ground to him being the same and that all of the games are just connected by way of alternate dimensions.

As for the XII paradox thing. As I said before I don't believe any of the games exist in the same world, barring sequels/prequels/spin-offs. So I haven't looked at XII to try to find connections with the rest of the series. XII still has all of the ties that you'd come to expect from a FF game though. Airship, chocobos, Espers (reused summon name from past game), classic summons are now airship names, Pharos Lighthouse actually pops back up as Pharos Sirius in FFXIV, which is also a lighthouse. Cloud and Aerith even appear in Tactics as guest characters.

Just because it doesn't have landmarks or common summons, doesn't mean it would be a time paradox. Most FF games doesn't have everything the past games do. Only XIV has done the most to pick from all of the games. The rest of the series make references to past games. The only reference I know of that FFX has is in X-2 with Shinra and that's it. There's no other direct references that they make to past games that isn't already standard for the series. The series is built on the idea that you're starting fresh with a new world, new history and new universe. They aren't going to always be making references to every past game.

[Rowan]

The only reference I know of that FFX has is in X-2 with Shinra and that's it. There's no other direct references that they make to past games that isn't already standard for the series. The series is built on the idea that you're starting fresh with a new world, new history and new universe. They aren't going to always be making references to every past game.

I think ffx has a biggs and wedge too. Biggs and wedge appear together in many FF titles as different characters.

[mariosmentor]

@Andromeda Okay, thanks for clearing up that problem. As for Gilgamesh and his trips through the Void, I'm gonna theorize that while Gilgamesh does in fact hop between dimensions, time also flows differently in the Void. This is how he's able to appear in so many different games, while retaining the same general look.

[Andromeda]

I think ffx has a biggs and wedge too. Biggs and wedge appear together in many FF titles as different characters.

Biggs and Wedge fall under standards for the series. Square is a fan of Star Wars and so Biggs and Wedge pop up frequently in the FF games as Star Wars references. They aren't something uniquely create for one FF game and then referenced by the others, which is what Shinra is.

We were already saying pretty much that about Gilgamesh. If he's dimension hopping it's expected that he's not going be changing appearance, he is the same character through them all. His dimensional traveling ability allows him to just jump from world to world at will while he searches out for powerful weapons. It's his MO.

[loaf]

I'd like to throw out that Square Enix has already given us a TimeLine for Ivalice for games such as Final Fantasy XII and Final Fantasy Tactics and Tactics Advance and Advance 2.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2 happens before Tactics but Tactics Advance happens after Tactics.

It goes

FF12
FF12-2
FFTA2
FFT
FFTA
FFTA2