Who is the strongest FF main villain!!

[Angel of Iniquity]

Don't worry about it Xanatos, I'll live ^^

Adel was tricked by her own ego, the only reason why she got caught, and the only reason why she lost to Squall and Co is because she hadn't had her powers after her release, which is why she had to draw from Rinoa.

Okay, here is my full proof on ultimecias power.

If Ultimecia can create griever from Squalls mind, she can read his mind then.
And this also means she can animate anything at will.
Ultimecia, while controlling Edea, mind screwed Deling and controlled him, showing her mental possession powers
Edea had Ice, not time and space, so it was Ultimecias abilities that allowed her to walk through walls, phase through ceilings and reanimate statues.
I believe either Ultimecia was toying with the party as much as Sephy was, or she really didn't care to die, as this could have been her overall plan.

Reasons why

1.If she was toying with them, that would make sense why she didn't finish them immediately.
2. If she was toying with them, that would make sense of why she didn't just create a thousand grievers to attack the party
3. If she was toying with them, that would make sense why she didn't go psycho mantis and acknowledge what they would do next, due to her mind reading abilities.
4. I believe Ulty was just trying to put fear into the party as how she introduced Griever, instead of creating something stronger than eden.

1. At the last battle, she said ALL existence denied, she either gave up and just wanted everything dead, or was her secondary plan
2. "Since her plan was to use time compression to become god-like, then delete the current universe and make a new one to her liking, she should of said "[This] existence denied," but denying ALL existence implies that she doesn't even want a universe of her own making anymore and is going to erase everything now, including herself. Her Scan info may be implying this, "Ultimecia, transformed to absorb all time and space. Absorbing all existence as we speak." Presumably she would destroy herself after absorbing everything, thus ending existence."

So, she either has to be playing around with the party, or didn't care to die.

[Heartless Angel]

If Ultimecia can create griever from Squalls mind, she can read his mind then.
And this also means she can animate anything at will.

Not nescessarily. She had plenty of time to work with that. Perhaps that was simply an existing GF made to take any specific shape she wanted. Never was it stated otherwise, so you can't sue that as proof. Evidence, but not proof.

Ultimecia, while controlling Edea, mind screwed Deling and controlled him, showing her mental possession powers

Again, all this shows is she has mind screwing powers, not actual strength.

Edea had Ice, not time and space, so it was Ultimecias abilities that allowed her to walk through walls, phase through ceilings and reanimate statues.

We do not know with any certainty that Edea did not posess powers pertaining to space and time, or that any other Sorceresses did not have the same power.

I believe either Ultimecia was toying with the party as much as Sephy was, or she really didn't care to die, as this could have been her overall plan

In which case she never posed a threat at all lol.

Adel was tricked by her own ego, the only reason why she got caught, and the only reason why she lost to Squall and Co is because she hadn't had her powers after her release, which is why she had to draw from Rinoa.

Therefore you acknowledge that the power of previous sorceresses was not absolute, AND not even permanent. Now Ultimecia having access to them means quite a bit less, doesn't it?

Reasons why

1.If she was toying with them, that would make sense why she didn't finish them immediately.
2. If she was toying with them, that would make sense of why she didn't just create a thousand grievers to attack the party
3. If she was toying with them, that would make sense why she didn't go psycho mantis and acknowledge what they would do next, due to her mind reading abilities.
4. I believe Ulty was just trying to put fear into the party as how she introduced Griever, instead of creating something stronger than eden.

These aren't reasons, these are explanations. They're actually almost the reverse of reasons. Reasons are pieces of information we know, which we use to prove or give evidence to a conclusion. An explanation requires that we accept our conclusion is true, and attempts to make it fit into what we know. What you're offering thus far is not an argument, but a series of explanatory statements. Logic can't be applied here, becuase you're going about it backwards. You're not taking what we know and using it to prove your conlusion, you've decided on your conclusion first and are attempting to depict the world of FF8 in a way that allows it to fit in. At best, an explanation makes your conclusion possible, but it alone is insufficient to prove it.

All existance denied is also fitting with the Squall is Dead theory. ALOT of what Ulti said really cemented that theory for me. It wasn't THE world that was ending, but Squall's world, because he was dying.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Well the developers already stated that the squalls dead and Rinoa's ultimecia theories were false implications by fans.

You know that's why I tried to place strength and magic in two categories, you can't say that is not strength, it gives the user abilities beyond what average strength can, there for it is strength, magic=power=strength

No she didn't, all sorceresses have set categories of power. Edeas was Ice. Ultimecia used Edea as a shell. Edea clearly used Time and space magic not pertaining to Ice, and also using maelstrom which is Ultimecias spell.

Saying in that case she never proved a threat is wrong, perhaps I did not state that comment well, I meant in the final battle. Otherwise you can also say Sephiroth wasn't a threat. In which clearly he was.

Being in stasis for a while reduced her powers. It just weakened her. Put sephiroth away for a while not using any of his powers and he also would have little abilities when he is out. The seal in space was meant to stop all powers while sealed and Laguna stated that she would quickly gain her powers, meaning she didn't lose her powers completely.

a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event, etc... It is the same as an explanation, tho I see what you tried to do their haha ^o^

ANd what you said is what everybody here has been doing if they have an fan.
We try to prove why our villains are strongest, which is what I just did...>.>

I'm sure I gave valid reasons why she is powerful, and reasons why she failed cause in reality, sephiroth didn't show that much or nearly that much, please show me wrong though, by showing his abilities in comparative to time and space, nothing beats time and space, as they are absolute in equity to life. Take away time and they can not live, take away space and they cannot exist.

[Heartless Angel]

You know that's why I tried to place strength and magic in two categories, you can't say that is not strength, it gives the user abilities beyond what average strength can, there for it is strength, magic=power=strength

Not at all. When I say strength I don't mean physical power. I mean destructive power. Ultimecia's magic is not destructive, nor does she use it destructively.

No she didn't, all sorceresses have set categories of power. Edeas was Ice. Ultimecia used Edea as a shell. Edea clearly used Time and space magic not pertaining to Ice, and also using maelstrom which is Ultimecias spell.

At no point in time did I ever hear Edea referred to as an ice Sorceress, or Adel as an anti continent Sorceress. You're confusing specialization with limits. Magic is drawn in VIII, you can get your hands on any spell if you know where it comes from. Ultimecia obviously knows where to get her hands on time and space magic.

Saying in that case she never proved a threat is wrong, perhaps I did not state that comment well, I meant in the final battle. Otherwise you can also say Sephiroth wasn't a threat. In which clearly he was.

Being in stasis for a while reduced her powers. It just weakened her. Put sephiroth away for a while not using any of his powers and he also would have little abilities when he is out. The seal in space was meant to stop all powers while sealed and Laguna stated that she would quickly gain her powers, meaning she didn't lose her powers completely.

Not at all. You stated Ultimecia wanted to lose, and was playing a game. If that was the case, she was aware of her own defeat, and that it would undo all she'd done. If she planned for everything to go back to normal and endeavored to make it happen, nobody was ever in danger. Sephiroth's plan isn't over, and he hasn't lost. He continues to threaten people and the world. Ultimecia does not. If that was by her own doing, intentionally, there never was anything to worry about.

Sephiroth also was in stasis mate, by his own choice. He was fine when he came out, strength completely intact. If anything he was stronger than before.

a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event, etc... It is the same as an explanation, tho I see what you tried to do their haha ^o^

ANd what you said is what everybody here has been doing if they have an fan.
We try to prove why our villains are strongest, which is what I just did...>.>

I'm sure I gave valid reasons why she is powerful, and reasons why she failed cause in reality, sephiroth didn't show that much or nearly that much, please show me wrong though, by showing his abilities in comparative to time and space, nothing beats time and space, as they are absolute in equity to life. Take away time and they can not live, take away space and they cannot exist.

Not at all. A Premise is a reason why we should believe a conclusion is true. An explanation is a statement of the implications of a conclusion's truth. To give an explanation we have to assume our conclusion is true BEFORE we start. An argument follows the form of "If A, then B. A, therefore B". An explantion is A because... To offer an explanation for A, you must already accept that A is true. That doesn't prove A IS true. That's among the most fundamental principles of critical thinking, if you're going to ignore it, then we can't even have rational discourse, because you're withdrawn from logic in order to believe whatever you please.

I attempt to prove the unknown based on the known, not take the unknown and force the world to accomodate it. That's the difference between an argument and an explanation.

You gave valid explanation of why it's possible she failed if your conclusion that she was all powerful is true. You have done absolutely nothing in the way of proving that it is.

By the same logic air is all powerful because we can't live in its abscence. Ultimecia NEVER at ANY point showed that she had the ability to erase space and time, only other things in it. With limits. Limits generated by the power of other sorcersses, which also suggests she did not posess their powers, or a way to reverse them. She did not have strength, she had control. The isntant she lost it, she was overthrown by a group of normal human beings.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Not at all. When I say strength I don't mean physical power. I mean destructive power. Ultimecia's magic is not destructive, nor does she use it destructively.



At no point in time did I ever hear Edea referred to as an ice Sorceress, or Adel as an anti continent Sorceress. You're confusing specialization with limits. Magic is drawn in VIII, you can get your hands on any spell if you know where it comes from. Ultimecia obviously knows where to get her hands on time and space magic.



Not at all. You stated Ultimecia wanted to lose, and was playing a game. If that was the case, she was aware of her own defeat, and that it would undo all she'd done. If she planned for everything to go back to normal and endeavored to make it happen, nobody was ever in danger. Sephiroth's plan isn't over, and he hasn't lost. He continues to threaten people and the world. Ultimecia does not. If that was by her own doing, intentionally, there never was anything to worry about.

Sephiroth also was in stasis mate, by his own choice. He was fine when he came out, strength completely intact. If anything he was stronger than before.



Not at all. A Premise is a reason why we should believe a conclusion is true. An explanation is a statement of the implications of a conclusion's truth. To give an explanation we have to assume our conclusion is true BEFORE we start. An argument follows the form of "If A, then B. A, therefore B". An explantion is A because... To offer an explanation for A, you must already accept that A is true. That doesn't prove A IS true. That's among the most fundamental principles of critical thinking, if you're going to ignore it, then we can't even have rational discourse, because you're withdrawn from logic in order to believe whatever you please.

I attempt to prove the unknown based on the known, not take the unknown and force the world to accomodate it. That's the difference between an argument and an explanation.

You gave valid explanation of why it's possible she failed if your conclusion that she was all powerful is true. You have done absolutely nothing in the way of proving that it is.

By the same logic air is all powerful because we can't live in its abscence. Ultimecia NEVER at ANY point showed that she had the ability to erase space and time, only other things in it. With limits. Limits generated by the power of other sorcersses, which also suggests she did not posess their powers, or a way to reverse them. She did not have strength, she had control. The isntant she lost it, she was overthrown by a group of normal human beings.

...
She was absorbing time and space, more than showing time and space magic is destructive, if nothing exists... then what, more than destructive than what Sepy can do.
I remember that Sephy wasn't in a complete stasis, a stasis that reduced his powers purposely so that argument cannot be applied here, and your definition of critical thinking is off.

We are both Fanboys of our Villians, so we will not be able to apply who is stronger tho I have more than shown why she is superior, but as we are fanboys, you probably shown in your mind why Sephy is superior.

Lets just screw this and go for the other villains cause I'm irritated.

Ex-death, is more than enough to battle Ultimecia as they both have Existence threatening abilities, which should put him on top.

[Heartless Angel]

She was absorbing time and space, more than showing time and space magic is destructive, if nothing exists... then what, more than destructive than what Sepy can do.

She failed to pull off the feat you're attempting to credit her with. She effectively destroyed nothing. Sephiroth can destroy everything in a physical sense. An irreversible undeniable sense. Ultimecia did not, nor do we have reason to believe she could.

I remember that Sephy wasn't in a complete stasis, a stasis that reduced his powers purposely so that argument cannot be applied here, and your definition of critical thinking is off.

He didn't reduce his powers, nothing suggests he did. You're making up points for the sake of refuting me. At no point did I define critical thinking, I defined an argument and an explanation. Fairly accurately as well. Again, if you're going to ignore these principles, we can't have an argument. You have withdrawn from an argument and switched to explanation because you can't make an argument using only the points you have. This is absolutely futile if you won't even acknowledge that.

We are both Fanboys of our Villians, so we will not be able to apply who is stronger tho I have more than shown why she is superior, but as we are fanboys, you probably shown in your mind why Sephy is superior.

My mind is irellevant to the truth of the claims. Your claims have not established evidence or proof. I have attempted to establish evidence, which may or may not be agreed with. That's the right of the reader. You however have simply declared yourself correct and ignored all points that say otherwise. We cannot have an argument if that is what you're going to do.

Lets just screw this and go for the other villains cause I'm irritated.

I said my piece on most of the other villains when evaluating my categories. If you want to agree to disagree, that's fine. But know, that doesn't make your view correct, nor does it give reason for me or anyone else to accept it as such. You're still free to believe whatever you will.

[Angel of Iniquity]

She failed to pull off the feat you're attempting to credit her with. She effectively destroyed nothing. Sephiroth can destroy everything in a physical sense. An irreversible undeniable sense. Ultimecia did not, nor do we have reason to believe she could.



He didn't reduce his powers, nothing suggests he did. You're making up points for the sake of refuting me. At no point did I define critical thinking, I defined an argument and an explanation. Fairly accurately as well. Again, if you're going to ignore these principles, we can't have an argument. You have withdrawn from an argument and switched to explanation because you can't make an argument using only the points you have. This is absolutely futile if you won't even acknowledge that.



My mind is irellevant to the truth of the claims. Your claims have not established evidence or proof. I have attempted to establish evidence, which may or may not be agreed with. That's the right of the reader. You however have simply declared yourself correct and ignored all points that say otherwise. We cannot have an argument if that is what you're going to do.



I said my piece on most of the other villains when evaluating my categories. If you want to agree to disagree, that's fine. But know, that doesn't make your view correct, nor does it give reason for me or anyone else to accept it as such. You're still free to believe whatever you will.

...
Final battle, nothing exists but her and the party, or what's left of it.
That in itself shows that she did more than any other villain in history did.

I don't know what you want me to give, what I gave was as validible as what you said about Sephy, Sephy is not impressive in any means. He isn't even in the top 5 villains in terms of strength or intellect.

I'm not going to argue, but again, show me why he is stronger than Ultimecia other than attempting to "prove" me wrong.
And you misread what I said about stasis, I said he wasn't in an ability reducing stasis.

AGain, Sephy, in all respects and proof, has nothing on most other bosses, though I was hoping for somebody who is a fanboy, despise what you say smarty, to argue me, I was not expecting him to give him false powers that most others had.

[JuzamDjinn]

Thread's getting hostile
It seems to be up in the air regarding who would be the stongest in battle, that is purely opinion and considring the mechanics of what world.

When taking into considering that first and formost final fantasy is about story. I personally think of these games as more like 'video novels' than 'games', I think the better judgement of "strength" should be based on strength of character.

Speaking from this perspective I think the strongest antagonist character is Kefka. He may do things as bit as Kuja, Sephiroth, or Ultimecia, but the things he does hit harder emotionally than anything the others do.
For example think about then Kuja did that thing in Terra(avoiding spoiler), compare that to Cyan's situation, or what he did to Gestal? Some things that hit harder.

I think what really adds strength to Kefka's character is that he is so human.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Ahem... T.G stole my reply.

^^
No really though, that was better than what I could have said haha

What I should add is Ultimecia did kill, and killed that lasted I guess. Or if you want to get ahead of ourselves lol... Hmm, not allot though lol
Some trabians from the missle crisis, most galbadians(war of the gardens, inwhich Galbadia is never seen again o.o) and ahh, about it.

[Xanatos]

Again, no, a nation is nothing compared to What Seph can do. He can, and does blow up stars with math. You know, starts. They're hundreds or thousands of times larger than entire planets, which seven continents are a minority of. Star is much much larger than planet, and requires much more to destroy. So blowing up a nation with Adel's power is absolutely not a greater acomplishment than blowing up a star with math, or having the power to annihilate an entire planet with Meteor. It's not even close lol. Kuja destroyed everything on the face of an entire planet with one spell, also putting Adel's one nation to shame.

Exaggerating a little bit, aren't we.

If he's indeed capable of such feat, than why use Meteor? Critically damaging one planet despite the Lifestream would be, but a child's play. Nevertheless, if you're prepared to cling to it I'll need some kind of proof, though your theory will fall in water as far as I'm concern if you so much as mention SuperNova,

Sephiroth's not capable of performing something of such magnitude as SeperNova despite what many fans may think. It's just a flashy animation as many others in Final Fantasy universe, I hardly believe a planet would survive such attack let alone Cloud and rest of the population. Not to mention it would make Sephiroth look stupid for not using part of such immense power instead of meteor.

Seph didn't 'fail' to do more, he simply didn't want to do more. Becoming one with the lifestream was his goal. Blowing up nations for no particular reason is not bennificial to that end.

Considering the power he had, fact that he could afford to fail due to immortality Sephiroth did nothing to little compared to some of the other villains. Now we can argue how much was needed for other villains to accomplish their goals, their opposition, but none of the villains had such convenience as Sephiroth had.

By gaining immortality you state that he accomplished his goal, though not the way he imagined. All facts indicate that he was immortal way before he summoned the meteor, to be honest he doesn't look like a guy who would gamble everything in fist fight with Cloud, which means his goal during the game was to obtain higher power. Did he fail, yes he did. Now it's another pair of sleeves that unlike many other villains he has another shoot, which he threw away as seen in Advent Children, but during the main event of FF VII he failed to accomplish his goal, may it be because he didn't care or any other reason, it's not important, he failed may you like it or not.

[Heartless Angel]

Oi, I got's lots of writing to do now... too lazy to disect these posts into nice quote boxes lol.


I can't say with any certainty that Zack was the only Non Jenova Project first class. I don't know in the case of Sephiroth, but we know just from what we learn of Genesis' early life that they were never just invited to Shinra to be first class soldiers. It stands to reason that they had to climb the ladder just like everyone else, though this was significantly easier for them, it does still imply that they had military dicipline and combat skills well above anyone else. Though not a particularly impressive feat in terms of supervillains, it does say something. Like I said, I started small and worked my way up lol.

I would call finese and skill a way of generating 'power'. In the same way a simple machine does work. Same goes for endurance. These both show that his body is more durable, and stronger than that of a normal person, or even a mako enhanced Soldier. Sephiroth also doesn't stick strictly to close combat or spells I've seen materia for. He flings magical sword waves of death, and chops up buildings like they were made of paper. There's some serious strength behind that blade. Also, I agree, I would've given him a Muramasa if it were my call, considering he was the one who made the evil swords that killed the shit out of everything, while Masamune made the nice happy swords that only killed the shit out of some things. But then that could be an intended device to fruther show that Sephiroth believed he was the one playing the good guy.

For it to be known that Meteor was capable of destroying worlds, that means soebody had to posess the pwoer to use it at that level, true? And it is stated that Sephiroth is the strongest being in FFVII's world, which would seem to me anyways to suggest he was capable of using it at least that well if not better.

Actually my memory may be a bit faulty here, but if memory serves, the Weapons were activated right when the real Sephiroth became active. This is likely because a Jenova powered meatshield lacked Sephiroth's ability, and couldn't use Meteor itself.

I was more stating the Jenova bit as another weapon he posessed which made him a threat moreso than an acomplishment. I can't imagine Jenova struggled too much.

As I said, that was fairly weak evidence on my part, as there are other theories which explain the move just as well. As I also stated before, an explanation as a premise at best makes a conclusion possible, so this isn't a key point really worth my fighting for.

In this regard I must say Seph is a bit like Sin. He possesses incredible power, the ability to use them, but no desire to on any major scale. His desires seem relatively modest for one with such potential. The key difference here is that unlike Sin, Sephiroth's lack of will to destroy does not limit his ability to do so. Sin doesn't destroy because his 'brain' actively resists destroying the things it knows and loves. Sephiroth simply chooses not to do so. If he wanted to, he would. Nothing prevents him from making that descision and directing his power to that end. We know the power Sephiroth has is more than the power he used. In the case of other villains, we don't have this knowledge, merely (usually) reasonable assumptions to that effect.

His multitasking is definitely a sign of his ability to sustain large ammounts of power. Unfortunately I don't ever recall hearing that Holy was the power coutnerpart of Meteor, just the Ultimate White magic. I would say it's fair to assume the two are power counterparts, but that's not a certainty, so I have to throw out there that in spite of this it's possible he isn't twice as strong as one would need to be to use Meteor. In any case, I think what makes this possible for Sephiroth isn't only that he's stronger than Aerith, but that he's stronger than Holy itself. He can sustain Meteor, Block Holy, control god knows how many forms of Jenova as well as all the n00bs in black, sustain the barrier at the Northern Crater against the Weapons, suspend the party with magic (dear god how much ****ing MP does this guy have?) all at the same time. This is part of why I say he can compete with Kuja Ulti and Kefka as mages, even though he seems like a warrior. Most of his higher ahcievemnts were done with magic moreso than swordplay. Excellent point.

Unlike other villains, his power of plot was never removed for the sake of PIS. It continued to drive him even after his 'defeat'. If we accept that power of plot is indeed the ultimate power, that would seem to suggest Sephiroth is the strongest, because he's the only one who still has it o.O

On to Xanatos

As I acknowledged preivously, what I said about Supernova was an explanation moreso than a premise, at best it makes my conclusion possible. So it's not a point worth me investing too much of my credibility in.

The only "convenience" Sephiroth has is his own strength. The entire planet (both literally and figuratively) conspired against him almost the entire time. If you want to talk convenience, Ultimecia went through 99.9% of her plan in her own time where there was nobody at all to oppose her. Seymour had political support of the entire world and even other Maester's standing up for him. Kuja happened to have the world's stupidest monarch as a scapegoat while he did whatever he wanted. Nobody even had an opportunity to oppose any of these people, that sounds rtaher convenient to me. Poeople tried to oppose Sephiroth. They failed horrifcally because Sephiroth was much more powerful.

Would you not call immortality higher power? He was already the strongest living thing. Only thing you really need after that is immortality.

[Xanatos]

On to Xanatos

As I acknowledged preivously, what I said about Supernova was an explanation moreso than a premise, at best it makes my conclusion possible. So it's not a point worth me investing too much of my credibility in.

The only "convenience" Sephiroth has is his own strength. The entire planet (both literally and figuratively) conspired against him almost the entire time. If you want to talk convenience, Ultimecia went through 99.9% of her plan in her own time where there was nobody at all to oppose her. Seymour had political support of the entire world and even other Maester's standing up for him. Kuja happened to have the world's stupidest monarch as a scapegoat while he did whatever he wanted. Nobody even had an opportunity to oppose any of these people, that sounds rtaher convenient to me. Poeople tried to oppose Sephiroth. They failed horrifcally because Sephiroth was much more powerful.

Would you not call immortality higher power? He was already the strongest living thing. Only thing you really need after that is immortality.

It seems you got the other way around. As I said before, Sephiroth achieved immortality way before he summoned the meteor, I would dare to say at the end of Crisis Core, thus failure was somewhat acceptable, no to mention that he really didn't have opposition as no one could match his power, and even those who were wiling to oppose where busy with Weapons majority of the time. On other hand Kuja couldn't afford to fail, he had to worry about Garland who was superior at one point, Zidane which potential exceeds even Kuja's, and two summoners, class which even Garland was afraid of. Immortality, and strength no man, nation can match, you don't get more convenient than that.

Yes, immortality is certainly higher form of power, God knows how many villains tried to obtain it. But according to Final Fantasy VII there was something even greater, with the power of lifestream Sephiroth would be even stronger, able to travel through universe and pose to be a threat, same way Jenova was before him, now tell me is that what Sephiroth tried and failed to obtain during the events of Final Fantasy VII or maybe I've played the wrong game.

[Heartless Angel]

I don't think He was immortal until the end, but I'll be replaying Crisis soon, followed by VII, so I'll look into that myself.

I define convenience as things going your way. Things went Kuja's way to be sure. Garland could have stopped him, but he didn't. Convenient for Kuja, yes? Zidane could've overpowered him, but didn't learn he had this power until Kuja had already set into motion his plan for more power, convenient for Kuja, yes? Brahne was stupid and did whatever he told her to, and just happened to have a summoner living in her castle, convenient, yes? Things didn't just happen to go Seph's way. He bent things over and made them his bitch. That's not convenience, that's the power to force things to go your way.

Failure would imply that he lst and can no longer achieve that, which is not the case. It's still a work in progress. The only true failure comes when you're no longer able to win, Sephiroth is still able to win. In fact because he is immortal, he can never be made inable to win, and therfore is immune to true failure. He can be delayed, but never stopped.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I think that's what we should do, stick with their respective games. No movies or spinoffs.

Now that we have some extra info on all the villains, or the more important villains in terms of intellect and power. Shall we compare who would be on top this time with open minds?

[Heartless Angel]

I'll wait until my playthough of the games again before I argue with any more debates of a factual nature, I like to make sure i have the facts before tyring to use them. I'll get back to you on the first few points here with my findings.

Advantages definitely. Power is supposed to give one an advantage.

The statement that Seph can win holds alot more water than the statement that Cloud cna always stop him. Cloud's existance is finite, Sephiroth's is not. Even if Cloud was able to beat him in a fair fight (which by the words of the creators we can infer he can't), Sephiroth could merely wait him to death. Sephiroth has the means to reach his goal, we have perfectly good reason to believe this. We have no reason at all to believe Cloud can stop him, as we know for a matter of fact that Sephiroth is stronger than anyone else in that world.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Okay, now lets post how each one can lose in their perspective, I don't mean like, Kuja can lose in he underestimates, or Palemecia can lose if he makes a mistake, which wouldn't make sense in their personality, I mean real ways they may mess up.

[Xanatos]

The statement that Seph can win holds alot more water than the statement that Cloud cna always stop him. Cloud's existance is finite, Sephiroth's is not. Even if Cloud was able to beat him in a fair fight (which by the words of the creators we can infer he can't), Sephiroth could merely wait him to death. Sephiroth has the means to reach his goal, we have perfectly good reason to believe this. We have no reason at all to believe Cloud can stop him, as we know for a matter of fact that Sephiroth is stronger than anyone else in that world.

True, Sephiroth has means for achieving his goal, in the end those are just but a mere speculations, and I never liked those to be honest. The same way you can foresee Sephiroth's victory I can see his downfall, Cloud doesn't have to be reason for it. An extraterrestrial life such as Jenova, who may not be the only of her kind, may interfere with Sephiroth plans and quite possibly be his demise. It's quite plausible if you think about it, and holds as much water as your theory about Sephiroth wining. You see why I don't like speculations.

[Angel of Iniquity]

True, Sephiroth has means for achieving his goal, in the end those are just but a mere speculations, and I never liked those to be honest. The same way you can foresee Sephiroth's victory I can see his downfall, Cloud doesn't have to be reason for it. An extraterrestrial life such as Jenova, who may not be the only of her kind, may interfere with Sephiroth plans and quite possibly be his demise. It's quite plausible if you think about it, and holds as much water as your theory about Sephiroth wining. You see why I don't like speculations.

He's right, being the desingers are gods in all games, they can do whatever they want in terms of Sephiroth and how he dies.
It is almost certain another movie or something will come out, why give him that much power and nothing to use it? That's Bs, they like Sephiroth probably cause the fanbase and automatically gave him hyper powers AFTER the game ended.
Plus, isn't Vincent technically stronger? Being stronger than omega I would say so.

[Heartless Angel]

Vincent wasn't what beat Omega, Chaos was. And again, it's already been stated, Sephiroth is the strongest in the VII Universe, that means greater than Omega and Chaos. Also stronger than other Jenovas that land on the planet. Unless they have a way to remove law energy from existance, they can't do anything to Seph lol.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Vincent wasn't what beat Omega, Chaos was. And again, it's already been stated, Sephiroth is the strongest in the VII Universe, that means greater than Omega and Chaos. Also stronger than other Jenovas that land on the planet. Unless they have a way to remove law energy from existance, they can't do anything to Seph lol.

I think that's what ticks me off the most.

Okay, he is the most powerful in FF7 existence, but yet he has no claims to that power. Sure we have seen some powerful abilities from him as every other villain, but it doesn't seem from everything I have seen, he is in the top three overall power.

[T.G. Oskar]

I think that's what ticks me off the most.

Okay, he is the most powerful in FF7 existence, but yet he has no claims to that power. Sure we have seen some powerful abilities from him as every other villain, but it doesn't seem from everything I have seen, he is in the top three overall power.

Remember; it's the power of plot. And in that case, I should claim Cloud has even greater power of plot than Sephiroth, because he has stopped him four times (the first was an accident, the second was with the team, the third was in his own mind, and the fourth was on Advent Children), even if he was supposedly struggling and so forth. The power of plot is great on Cloud, I'd say.

For someone who's supposed to be the most powerful, the fact that he simply can't seem to defeat Cloud's plot armor sends some doubts. The fact that the only future mention of the Planet is Dirge of Cerberus and neither of them are mentioned (to my recollection) means no one can truly claim victory.

Vincent wasn't what beat Omega, Chaos was. And again, it's already been stated, Sephiroth is the strongest in the VII Universe, that means greater than Omega and Chaos. Also stronger than other Jenovas that land on the planet. Unless they have a way to remove law energy from existance, they can't do anything to Seph lol.

Law energy? Uh...what do you mean with that? After all, isn't everything eroded by entropy, as the natural state of things is towards disorder (or chaos, but you might have Discordians arguing)?

[Angel of Iniquity]

Well since sephiroths power is in the plot, as mr oscar said, I believe the creators could basically find a away to ring some sort of jenova figure that absorbs mako and becomes stronger, then sephiroth would lose in power.
THe only reason why I say that is because they didn't state that untill the movie, which I hate because it is the only one other than FF4 that got extra attention...

[Heartless Angel]

His power isn't exclusively in the plot. He's a naturally powerful character. Popwer of Plot comes in when you become 'stronger' for the sake of driving storyline. A random jenova figure has 0 plot nescessity, so Power of Plot would be in full on Seph's side. Again, you're not posing an argument, but looking for some obscure possibility of him losing. That does not reduce the power he has in any way.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I wasn't talking about the other villians, we kinda stryed of the beaten path lol
How about we go on path and actually state what they would in if they met, would they even fight?
Who would be irritant enough to make the first move, are they even capable to be manipulated? (their will)

[Xanatos]

@Heartless Angel - And this is why I hate speculations. No offense, but whenever there's a discussion going about Final Fantasy villains, to hide his lack of accomplishments Sephiroth fans quite often turn to what might he achieve in near future. While there are more than enough facts that he may actually achieve his goal, he still has to do it, so I really don't see how can a mere speculation be on the table as a comparison to what other villains have already achieved.

To learn more about Sephiroth I decided to read Ultimania Omega, and google a little bit. I came to understand that Sephiroth's immortality was first introduced eight years after original game in Advent Children for sole purpose of the movie. Sephiroth's will was still present, but to take a form, and pose a threat he needed Jenova, thus the rush for Jenova's only remaining part of the body, her head. His will may be immortal, but to take a form he'll need to find another way if he's to achieve his goals, as there nothing left of Jenova. Geostigma was his mean to gain control over the lifstream, not just that his will is in lifstream, but he doesn't have any control over the lifstream itself. In one way or another he's indeed immortal, due to strong will to be more precise, is he's capable of posing threat in near future is the real question here. Why seek power when according to you he's already the strongest one as far as Final Fantasy VII goes.

Now, if immortality was indeed introduced in Advent Children, and it probably is judging by Nojima's words, that means creators never intended to make Sephiroth immortal during the events of original game. When Final Fantasy VII was released Sephiroth's defeat would mean his death, his defeat wasn't result of not caring, but ego, and insanity. He might have been the strongest person in Final Fantasy VII, but he lost traits of brilliant tactician as soon as he went cuckoo, which was his downfall as brilliant tacticians don't underestimate the same opponent several times. If we're to look at Final Fantasy VII, the way it's meant to be, Sephiroth achieved nothing, he was close to realizing his goal, but he still failed. The question is, shall we compare villains by their respective games, or is there a need to discus what he may or may not accomplish so we might add that as one of his points as well.

I would also like to thank you, I'm not curious man myself, as far as these things concern, but your post made me research Sephiroth a little bit, and I got to understand him more. One more thing though, if you could provide me with a link to source where's Sephiroth stated to be the strongest being in world of Final Fantasy VII, I couldn't find it myself, I would appreciate it.

[Heartless Angel]

Immortality IS an acomplishment as far as I'm concerned. A gateway acomplishment that can only lead to more. I consider the full story. Only reason one would choose to ignore a continuation is if it made one's case harder to make. But, if you want to argue solely on their original games, yes. Sephiroth did lose. He does sitll however posess greater power than anything else in his world, and more power than other villains. Whether or not he put that power to good use is another thing entirely.

I'll have to go dig that quote up later, got a damned research paper to do now unfortunately.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Well than, thank you Xanatos for letting me on a little more info from sephy, I didn't look up on him cause I despise the hype of FF7 and refused to do mostly anything with it, so thanks.

[T.G. Oskar]

I thought it was important to clarify something:

"Power of plot" is not a quantifiable type of power, but a "qualitative" type of power. Although we're doing a measurement of Sephy's power (and the power of all other villains) in a qualitative method, "power of plot" is not something you define by words such as "little" or "much", nor with words such as "weak" or "powerful".

Power of plot is, essentially, to have the right power when plot dictates it. If we were to measure power of plot based on use, and compare all people who have power of plot against each other, Sephy wouldn't be even 0.000001% as powerful as the king of power of plot, Silver Age Superman. With a family, defined set of powers, being pretty much undefeatable and having super-everything (even super-ventriloquism and super-hypnosis, that's how he hid his secret identity), he was the definition of unbeatable. Of course, his power of plot ran out with Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Oh wait, we have Batman as the absolute ruler of power of plot, and he's for all concepts human. When you have "Bat Shark-Repellant Spray" on the utility belt, you know he's crazy prepared. To ridiculous extents, that is.

Evidently, power of plot works on a meta-scale, in which stuff is essentially added to patch parts of the story which might be shaky when a character has an undefined set of powers. If your powers are, say, much like the sidekicks on Sky High, you really can't do much with them; now, compare that to the power of the Scarlet Witch (yet another character with Power of Plot running on steroids), and you can pull off entire storylines with it (as in, House of M and subsequent "no more mutants" stories).

One of the traits is that such characters will be considered, plot-wise, insanely powerful (because you really can't define the limits of their power). Villains usually have a little bit of "power of plot" to fulfill their plans, usually serving some purposes: surviving a sound defeat of the heroes (or just being plain invincible on one battle), appearing when least expected to take the McGuffin (the artifact which everyone seems to look for) out of the heroes' hands, pulling off incredible stuff such as suddenly convincing an entire kingdom the heroes are actually the bad guys, and so forth. Some uses of "power of plot" aren't actual shows of power in first place; instead, they are resources used by the storyline writer to advance the plot. Some are perfectly explainable (such as Kefka's insanity and descent into evil, Sephy's descent into evil and so on) and some just don't seem to do so, which might lead into plot-holes (the realm of discontinuity for Superman before CoIE).

As Heartless mentioned, villains have essentially undefined amounts of power of plot until they are defeated by the heroes (whom also have power of plot abilities, but not the same as the villains). In the case of Sephy, though, it seems power of plot didn't really ran out, unlike in the case of others whom got what they deserved; what happened was that plot needed him again and did the revival Aeris actually deserved (but didn't because that would otherwise ruin the plot, no?).

Power of plot, as stated, is no true measurement of the individual's perceived power potential. Power of plot is not a bad thing, either. However, a creator can use power of plot in a bad way, which leads to discomfort between people.

Odin (and only Odin, I don't want to extend this a bit further), consider the following: say we're dealing with FFVI. We all know Kefka was soundly beaten, his will eradicated, the power of the Espers dissipates, Terra becomes fully human instead of half-Esper (never mind the genetic troubles with that), and so on. Then, assume several years later, there's a video sequel to Final Fantasy where, somehow, Magic has revived, people find Daryl's body and reincarnate Kefka in that body; furthermore, the power of the Espers that was supposed to wane suddenly starts reappearing, Terra's powers reawaken, and Terra (still addled about why her power has reappeared, with the consequence that it might never have left at all) has to face Kefka, with support from all the characters of the game (even Mog, Umaro and Gogo). Let's also define that the Warring Triad is the most powerful thing on the world of Final Fantasy VI, that Sakaguchi himself stated that, and that Kefka is the incarnation of the Warring Triad, thus he's the most powerful individual in that world by definition. Now, let's assume Final Fantasy VII was made, and it ended exactly as it ended before. However, Crisis Core, Advent Children and other sequels never existed.

Finally, let's assume the same situation stands, with most people (I would claim myself included) defending Kefka, while others defend Sephy.

One: which might be the most powerful then? Second: did Kefka, in this exercise, was the most powerful because of power of plot, or because the story has defined him as the most powerful? Again, I only want Odin to answer this; no analyzing, no trying to aid; let him answer, and I'll answer later, and then you might comment.

If you wanna comment, Xanatos' point is a good one, though I consider the story is best told entirely, even if that would otherwise damage the story (though I also find it's invaluable to fix the damage done to the story). Case in point: Star Wars. Love it or hate it, Expanded Universe material is canon, and it expands on both what happened before AND what will happen in the future, and it makes some characters far more epic than they would have otherwise been (Obi-Wan, Palpatine), even though it might have done some damage to others (Darth Vader). There are some things that definitely should have gone out (Jar-Jar!!!!), but otherwise the plot behind the first trilogy wasn't so bad. I mean, if you saw the ending of Attack of the Clones you might have been as exited as pretty much everyone about what happened; also, it truly cemented Palpatine as an utter bastard of a villain. But some people consider only the first trilogy is canon, much like most people might wanna forget Kirk's trend on Star Trek and focus mostly on Picard (or viceversa). Still: if what Ultimania says has some validity, then the only reason why Sephy has immortality is caprice of the creator? Furthermore, is that a revision done by Kitase or was it originally on Sakaguchi's plans when pitching the original concept of FFVII (considering he also dealt with the concept of immortals in Lost Odyssey, which may be further proof or a massive "take that!" to FFVII's deal with immortality).

[Angel of Iniquity]

Odin (and only Odin, I don't want to extend this a bit further), consider the following: say we're dealing with FFVI. We all know Kefka was soundly beaten, his will eradicated, the power of the Espers dissipates, Terra becomes fully human instead of half-Esper (never mind the genetic troubles with that), and so on. Then, assume several years later, there's a video sequel to Final Fantasy where, somehow, Magic has revived, people find Daryl's body and reincarnate Kefka in that body; furthermore, the power of the Espers that was supposed to wane suddenly starts reappearing, Terra's powers reawaken, and Terra (still addled about why her power has reappeared, with the consequence that it might never have left at all) has to face Kefka, with support from all the characters of the game (even Mog, Umaro and Gogo). Let's also define that the Warring Triad is the most powerful thing on the world of Final Fantasy VI, that Sakaguchi himself stated that, and that Kefka is the incarnation of the Warring Triad, thus he's the most powerful individual in that world by definition. Now, let's assume Final Fantasy VII was made, and it ended exactly as it ended before. However, Crisis Core, Advent Children and other sequels never existed.

Finally, let's assume the same situation stands, with most people (I would claim myself included) defending Kefka, while others defend Sephy.

One: which might be the most powerful then? Second: did Kefka, in this exercise, was the most powerful because of power of plot, or because the story has defined him as the most powerful? Again, I only want Odin to answer this; no analyzing, no trying to aid; let him answer, and I'll answer later, and then you might comment.

! I'm important! Yay! xD
Okay. In your dramatization, Kefka did not become a higher level of energy until they created another FF6. (FF6-2?) BUt then again, they basically manipulated the story-line in that he always had that power, though we never knew about it until the sequel.
I have it in my head what you are saying, but my head doesn't organize the details correctly.
It is this.
So kefka was the strongest, but we would have never known unless they did a sequel

Crap head going boom.

THe creators made him stronger after the second release in which he may have already been but yeh... I have it... can't say it... >.>

[T.G. Oskar]

! I'm important! Yay! xD
Okay. In your dramatization, Kefka did not become a higher level of energy until they created another FF6. (FF6-2?) BUt then again, they basically manipulated the story-line in that he always had that power, though we never knew about it until the sequel.
I have it in my head what you are saying, but my head doesn't organize the details correctly.
It is this.
So kefka was the strongest, but we would have never known unless they did a sequel

Crap head going boom.

THe creators made him stronger after the second release in which he may have already been but yeh... I have it... can't say it... >.>

Didn't went answering the second question, but here goes the thought for the first:

In their respective games, both Kefka and Sephiroth (and just about every other villain) is pretty much assumed dead, exterminated, and their story ended. While with Kefka things are darn near impossible (what with the idea that with Kefka's death, Magic itself perished), there was an apparent glimpse of hope that Sephiroth can survive in the Lifestream because he did already. Note that I'm saying "survived", never said "died and resurrected".

The first answer is basically what the creators did with Sephiroth, but in a different way. There's the theme of reincarnation (Kefka -> Daryl; Sephy -> Kadaj), the concept of "things are not over yet" (with Kefka comes the return of Magic, with Sephy the return of Jenova and her influence), the idea that "so as long as X exists, Y will exist" (Kefka being pretty much the God of Magic; Sephy existing as long as there's something that anchors him to the world of the living, hence the "I will never be a memory" quote), and other similarities. The one particular difference between both stories is that one is unreal (Kefka surviving, unless Squeenix proves me wrong) and the other is undeniably real. There was no argument towards Sephy pretty much becoming immortal until Advent Children, Ultimania and On the Way to a Smile came in; until that, Sephy had perished, and there was no way to revive him as Cloud had pretty much exorcised him out of his system. Had someone suggested that idea on that scenario, people would have stated there was a plot hole or something, while you would have had undeniable proof that Kefka could be revived. How is that possible?

Enter part 2, and the second question: the power of plot. Sephy's death wasn't entirely ambiguous when FFVII (and only FFVII) ended; it turned ambiguous when later material stated he had survived. So he pretty much pulls immortality from the power of plot. Now, does that make him powerful? Same as Kefka on the imagined scenario, Sephy isn't powerful by the power of plot; however, it is a mechanism used to give him greater power. Note that until the three materials came out and FFVII was expanded, you couldn't argue that Sephy was the more powerful because it was on equal playing grounds with the rest of the villains, and the others did show some lasting effect on the world (though he DID gave a lasting impression on the world, given that Meteor was still going on). What gave him the edge was the fact that he was given a chance to effectively remain alive, thus opening the can of worms of "if he revived once, he'll revive again". Same thing with death in comics; it's never permanent because they pretty much ALWAYS revive (sans a few, such as Gwen; but she was turned into a clone, so YMMV). That doesn't mean he's powerful because of the power of plot, but he's powerful because of the effects of the power of plot, just like every other villain. In a meta-vision of things, while the others' plots are finished (and with Zemus, pretty much proven as the sequel to FFIV didn't include him), his remains.

Finally, it wasn't a dramatization, and Kefka reached the top echelon of power when he got the Statues, never when he got reincarnated. Much like Sephy got power from his birth, from his training, and from his time at the Lifestream (though at the latter he gained knowledge, scientia est potentia). Furthermore, I didn't invent the plot, but it was a nice comparison (in fact, it's from an old FF/CT crossover fanfic, and the villain was Dalton of all people); had the creators stated "this is the way he endures on", it would have been pretty much undefeatable proof that he was powerful (because he survived, his plot goes on, so forth). That wouldn't have stopped people from saying there were some plot-holes on the ending, buttock-pulls and whatnot, effectively shattering the fandom of the series into two groups. That's exactly what has happened with Sephiroth (heck, even the page I linked has it), and there will be people to take the position of defense and attack.

So, what does this has to deal with the topic at all? Nothing, but it showcases just how the topic devolved from the strongest villain to the best villain, except Kefka (the usual suspect for Best Villain of Final Fantasy) is absent, with Ulti and Kuja taking that spot. The core of the discussion has gone from defining who's the strongest to determining the exact strength of Sephiroth (undeniably the "ficha de tranque"; a Spanish term coined in domino for the tile move that prevents the game from moving forward, effectively ending the game; the term represents a position within an organization that has two people in conflict and not allowing one to move one inch to the other side). And going into that tangent means you'll have people trying to use arguments about "the best villain" to support the idea of the "strongest villain" (such as what Xanatos stated and I support that Sephy did nothing with such power potential, while Heartless supports he did a lot, he could do a lot more, and he's just biding time to do it). The message to you is that from now on, mark your words very carefully because if what you speak doesn't contribute to moving the topic position one inch to one side or the other, then it'll just contribute to the conflict. That doesn't mean that your point isn't valid, but as you might have noticed, it might start to get rebuked.

Now, your observation is good, but that's not the only observation you can make. Kefka, before perishing, was actually quite powerful; effectively the most powerful being in his world, requiring a massive team of people to face him down. What's more, he also played with people by pretty much telekinetically moving them away, ready to do freefall since they were at the top of the Tower. You could notice how his influence was pretty much killing the world, and he couldn't do more than gladly help as he used the Light of Judgment out of a whim. Now, does that make him the most powerful? In his world, of course, but probably not in the general sense as the heroes fought on pretty much equal terms (the Espers were providing their power to them, Celes was a Magitek Knight and thus had innate magic powers, Strago was a Blue Mage and well-versed in various magics, with the ability to learn a spell such as Grand Train; Terra being a half-Esper, period).

As to why I still support Ultimecia? The argument that she failed, and hence couldn't be so powerful because she was defeated, is a defensive argument rooted in "power of plot"; she succeeded in what she wanted (to use the Time Compression spell), but the heroes succeeded in their own plan (to face Ultimecia on her own time). Even then, she had enough power to seal her own castle, thus effectively preventing the party from accessing their full power, then creating the most powerful spell and the most powerful GF from her own mind, and had she succeeded on destroying the team and sending them to their own world, "absorbed by time", she would have been pretty much uncontested. She, as well as Squall and co., had all the time in the world because time had effectively halted; however, it is Ultimecia's ability to create concepts from nothing (which I could argue is the power of Hyne himself, being the god of magic in that world) coupled with the power of all Sorceresses of ALL times PLUS the ability to manipulate Time is what makes her powerful, IF not the most powerful villain of them all. Even then, when she perished, she still managed to make her plan a stable time loop, by giving Edea her Sorceress' powers (which, if you notice at the ending, Squall attempts to stop but Edea refuses, stating she knew very well what would happen and that had such a thing never happened, SeeD wouldn't have existed at all because she knew all of Ultimecia's plans). Ultimecia seals her own doom by succeeding on her plan, but darn, her plan succeeded and she had unfathomable power on her hands (unlike Sephiroth, mind you Heartless). The rest is just arguments to whether she was the best villain or not, which if you consider carefully she wasn't.

Also to note: both Sephy and Ulti had the authors throw a bone to the heroes or else they would have failed. It just happens that the bone thrown to AVALANCHE was given with the rest of the skeleton, the meat, the garnishing, the platter, the sides, the table, the location and the time, not to mention the invitation to the banquet. That's the argument behind "power of plot", and one of the defensive points of the Sephy fanbase (both fanboys and illustrated fans such as Heartless over here); given all points, Sephiroth shouldn't have lost.