Which is the greatest, VII or XII?

[Ryu-Kentoshii Hirokima]

I Liked Them Both Equally. FFXII Is Only Better Because Of The Graphics And The Freedom To Fight What You Want, When You Want And Etcetera And The Storyline For It Was Pretty Good. The Only Reason Why I Find That FFVII The Original Is Equal, Is Because The Graphics Aren't As Good...But Everything About It Is Pretty Much Better Than FFXII. Now, If They Remade FFVII For The PS3, And Keep The Same Story And Everything, Then It Would Be Deffenitly Way Better. We Will Just Have To Wait And See For That. This Is Just MY Opinion On The Subject.

[markandrewkinzett]

To be fair I have not played 12 but I have seen it being played and it looks pretty awesome but in the end FF7 is just a classic so uinfortunately for major 12 fans sorry!!!

[Linus Li Lelouch]

See Other Post....

~EDIT~

[Angel of Iniquity]

Well, there is allot of people who shun FF12, WAY more than FF7. Actually, I have heard people talk like FF12 is horrible, which I hqalf-way agree in.

[Zeromus]

I love them both but I gotta go with 7. I've never spent time playing a game like that one and i spend a lot of time playing them Now if they were to remake it just to update its graphics it would be GOLD

[8ethers]

Absolutely final fantasy 7. For me at least. I've played it several times throughout the years and am always amazed by the depth of the storyline. Leveling up is assisting And easy. The characters are great ( gotta love CID).
Maybe some of my opinion has to do with 1.I was in seventh grade when it came out and 2. At the time the transition of graphics from ff6 to ff7 was absolutely mind-blowing. Twelve was great and the complexity of it was challenging but 7 is unbeatable.

[Zidane77]

I don't think those games are comparable, VII is simply way superior in any way.
The only thing FFXII has over some other FF games is the battle system which i like but the battle system in VII is my favorite of the older games and is fast enough for my taste.
I get tired of the battle system in IX and X but VII is always epic.

So that little thing FFXII has isn't even worth to compare, cause everything else blows in comparison (storyline,music,characters, everything).
I do like FFXII but it has alot of flaws in my opinion.

[Linus Li Lelouch]

After playing both, I'm gonna go with XII, something about the game just made me sit at the edge of my seat the whole time. VII was good and all but I mean it just can't compare to XII, the story of XII was way more epic and understanding than that of VII. Not to mention Balthier is damn near better than most of, if not all of VII's characters. The battle system was also a nice addition to it, made me feel like I was watching a movie which just added to me understanding everything more since I didn't have to put so much thought into fighting. Don't get me wrong VII was a great game, can't go wrong with it...

The bosses were also way harder, which is always good to have a nice challenge, the Espers also had a nice background into the game (If you bother talking to NPCs) which made me happy that I was not just getting some random monster to tame.

The characters in both games were decent but I felt more of a connection to the ones in XII, specifically Ashe, Fran, Balthier, and Basch. Even Vayne was pretty badass in his own little way, can't get any better than that.

I could go on but then we'd be here all day. Simply put XII is just epic, while VII is just *eh why not*.

Spoiler: Equips Flame Resistant Shield

~EDIT~ Honestly I think people are just attracted to VII because it was the first FF game to majorly involve the american people err rather appeal to them the most, considering it was the first 3D FF game and at the time (let's be honest) not many people was totally into 2D games unless they were old school gamers. Let's switch places here, VII was XII and XII was VII, or rather let's use any FF game for that matter, I bet people would then say oh yeah FF__ is the best, just epic, superior in anyway shape or form.

Maybe I'm letting my feelings get in the way of this but still, no one has ever proven me wrong on thinking a majority thinks VII is the best bc it's the first 3D FF game on a new or rather popular console so I will stand by the above statement. I use to defend VIII, VI and Tactics against VII all the time when i was younger until I realized pfft why bother anymore. VI used to be that popular but because it doesn't have pretty graphics, a majority of people will forget about it. I think there's a rather handful of people who still consider VI one of the greatest FF games ever made, but in ratio, that's way smaller if you compare it to the VII fan base.

Ok I'm done with my little sermon...

[Heartless Angel]

Spoiler: Equips Flame Resistant Shield

~EDIT~ Honestly I think people are just attracted to VII because it was the first FF game to majorly involve the american people err rather appeal to them the most, considering it was the first 3D FF game and at the time (let's be honest) not many people was totally into 2D games unless they were old school gamers. Let's switch places here, VII was XII and XII was VII, or rather let's use any FF game for that matter, I bet people would then say oh yeah FF__ is the best, just epic, superior in anyway shape or form.

Maybe I'm letting my feelings get in the way of this but still, no one has ever proven me wrong on thinking a majority thinks VII is the best bc it's the first 3D FF game on a new or rather popular console so I will stand by the above statement. I use to defend VIII, VI and Tactics against VII all the time when i was younger until I realized pfft why bother anymore. VI used to be that popular but because it doesn't have pretty graphics, a majority of people will forget about it. I think there's a rather handful of people who still consider VI one of the greatest FF games ever made, but in ratio, that's way smaller if you compare it to the VII fan base.

Ok I'm done with my little sermon...

VII wasn't te first FF I played, nor was it my first 3d FF, but it's still my favorite story of the series. What you've posed here isn't an argument against VII at all, but rather an explanation of how it could attain popularity without being good. An explanation as a premise in an argument at best makes your conclusion (that VII isn't just that good) possible. It no more proves it's not the best than my initial statement explaining that VII was not my first but still my favorite proves that it is. Also, the fact that nobody has disproven that explanation does not confirm it. Suggesting that it does is a form of logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Ignorantium. I could just as easily dismiss XII by saying that most people only like it because it was the first to completely mutilate the classic system, or the first of the main series set in the familiar world of Ivalice, or the first with high graphic representation of bunny chicks. None of these possible explanations devalue the game's actual quality in any way.

If you wish to argue that the fact that people liked it because it was new and different, it's almost impossible to logically support XII, because it too was one of the first big changes in the franchise, breaking away from the classic combat system. In fact I would be willing to say that that is exactly why alot of people liked XII, but again, that explanation lends little to no support to my conclusion.

[Angel of Iniquity]

VII wasn't te first FF I played, nor was it my first 3d FF, but it's still my favorite story of the series. What you've posed here isn't an argument against VII at all, but rather an explanation of how it could attain popularity without being good. An explanation as a premise in an argument at best makes your conclusion (that VII isn't just that good) possible. It no more proves it's not the best than my initial statement explaining that VII was not my first but still my favorite proves that it is. Also, the fact that nobody has disproven that explanation does not confirm it. Suggesting that it does is a form of logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Ignorantium. I could just as easily dismiss XII by saying that most people only like it because it was the first to completely mutilate the classic system, or the first of the main series set in the familiar world of Ivalice, or the first with high graphic representation of bunny chicks. None of these possible explanations devalue the game's actual quality in any way.

If you wish to argue that the fact that people liked it because it was new and different, it's almost impossible to logically support XII, because it too was one of the first big changes in the franchise, breaking away from the classic combat system. In fact I would be willing to say that that is exactly why alot of people liked XII, but again, that explanation lends little to no support to my conclusion.

Sure is heartless ^-^

[Linus Li Lelouch]

Suggesting that it does is a form of logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Ignorantium.

What did you call my mother????

[Heartless Angel]

Rough translation is appeal to ignorance, sometimes referred to as misplacing the burden of evidence or proof. Long story short, when you make a claim, it's your responsibility to prove it, not that of anyone who doesn't take your word for it to disprove it.

[JuzamDjinn]

I liked everything about VII better.
I did enjoy alot of what XII had to offer though, the battle system had its flaws, but this was their first attempt to break away from menu based combat. Considering this they did a good job I feel.
The characters and their motivations of XII we're just very weak, I couldn't for the life of me figure out WHY most of them were doing what they were doing.
VII had some of the most beautiful settings I've seen in a game scince Myst, and the cyberpunk themes appealed alot to my personal taste.

both great games, but VII is strongly leading XII in my subjectivity.

[JuzamDjinn]

Weak!

They were fighting against oppression, tyranny, to stop possible war outbreak on scale the world has never seen before, for better tomorrow. My father fought for the same cause, to defend his country so I may live in peace, would you call his motivations weak.

The characters aswell a their personal motivations, yes. Their motivations just didnt feel personally strong, oppression is bad, so what? why did the hoodrat kid decided to go on all those razy adventures? never reallt said...he just does. Balthier wants treasure, nothing strong here. This game had some of the most underdeveloped characters that I've seen in the franchise.
but again, Im not saying this was a bad game. the characters and their motivations we're just very weakly developed.

What war was your dad in? ...I have no idea what you're talking about. American schools/media don't concern themselves with anything involving other countries. I dont even know what "Bosnia and Herzegovina" are(I think bosia is a country, right?), and I'm reletively well educated. sad really.

[Xanatos]

The characters aswell a their personal motivations, yes. Their motivations just didnt feel personally strong, oppression is bad, so what? why did the hoodrat kid decided to go on all those razy adventures? never reallt said...he just does. Balthier wants treasure, nothing strong here. This game had some of the most underdeveloped characters that I've seen in the franchise.
but again, Im not saying this was a bad game. the characters and their motivations we're just very weakly developed.

Every one of those characters had strong motives, Balthier had more at stake that you can even imagine. He's Arcadian after all, his nation, his own father is responsible for countless of casualties, grief, and sorrow. To you it may appear that he's was only after treasure, treasure hunt was just a mean to escape from cruel reality, distraction from real problems, treasure itself is what placed him on right path in the end, and forced him to solve his own problems.

Both Vaan, and Penelo lost everything to Arcadian empire, it's all thanks to Vaan's nature, and curiosity that they had chance to fight back. Do you really think Vaan accepted Bach's, and Ashe's offer so he could experience some kind of adventure, more to avenge his brother, and stop war from spreading even further, so more kids wouldn't have to experience the same fate he has.

To fight against oppression, tyranny, to stand, and defend your own country, family, relatives, friends, to prevent a war outbreak, annihilation of everything you ever known, for better tomorrow, peace...if these are not personal motives, or even good enough, then please do tell me what are?

What war was your dad in? ...I have no idea what you're talking about. American schools/media don't concern themselves with anything involving other countries. I dont even know what "Bosnia and Herzegovina" are(I think bosia is a country, right?), and I'm reletively well educated. sad really.

My father was fighting in civil war which began 1991 and ended 1995, last moments of Yugoslavia. I used it as an example to see what exactly do you consider strong motives to be, as characters from Finl Fantasy XII had the same motives. And you don't need to explain what kind of education USA has, unlike you folks there, here in Europe we tend to learn thing or two about other countries, sad indeed when you think about it, but that's for another discussion.

[JuzamDjinn]

No, not FFXII. Us.
Scince You've experienced [legitimate] war, or atleast known it to be close to home, your views opression and tyranna will be different from someone like me who hasn't.


Anyway, so stay on topic.
FFVII is better

[Zidane77]

I don't agree the music in this game is one of the best factors.
I think it's crap at times, like Rabanastre and lowtown or whatever, just plainly sucked and failed. Could've been good but felt it was incomplete.
The music is fine at times, i like it's not always the same music in fights, that is really good. And i don't hate the music, i just thought it was better in all games before that one (except X-2).
And the characters and storyline was pretty messed up but Balthier and Fran were pretty fresh, but it lacked so many things in motivation,storyline, something that FFVII has in so many ways,way more than this game could handle.

So that's why i don't think they're comparable, XII doesn't even come close in my opinion.
Although it ain't bad (i've played it for over 500 hours), it has great graphics compared to the earlier ones, decent music and fun battle system,collectables and side-quests.
Still i think it's a little bit above X-2.

[Xanatos]

Music- Well it was most praised due to it's technicalities much like FF13, tho you may never hear most fans even name a FF12 song. I do like near the water, port of balfonheim and Battle for freedom tho.

Technicality? Care to elaborate that a bit more.

Music was praised because it was actually good, to quote one of the reviewers "I actually don't feel the absence of Nobuo Uematsu".

Freedom- Yea, your right. Something FF13 is lacking horribly. The only thing I don't like is certain arduous areas like the great crystal or the ogir yensa when the openness takes your brain away... o.o

Not just Final Fantasy XIII, after playing Final Fantasy XII every game in franchise feels restricted, and linear.

Difficulty- I mean in standards to what level you are. Yazmat? No problem at level 80s. Omega was a little challenging, but I didn't die. And the dino, well, that's like fighting emerald weapon at low levels, it is something you are not supposed to fight yet. All you really have to do is buy allot of phoenix downs, which I had 99 before I escaped the prison. The one where you fight the mimic queen. Then put it as the first gambit and as long as you are in correct leveling, you won't die. Funny thing you brought up elder wyrm... I hate him though... >.>

I can't get rid of this impression that you actually haven't played Final Fantasy XII. You do know Yiazmat is the biggest challenge not just in Final Fantasy XII, but in the entire franchise as well. Battle alone lasts five hours, and that's if you're excellent at it, if not, add couple of hours more. Skilled players, with maxed characters, best equipment, and well set gambits, have difficulties defeating Yiazmat, and you're telling me that he's no problem with characters at level 80. Omega Weapon, little challenging? Now I know that you're full of shit. If you need that quantity of phoenix down's, what does that tell you about game's difficulty.

Originality- I meant the battling system where you don't have to do anything. and current walking monsters on field. It was cool but it all had a dusty feel, with animations and graphics. Actually by the animations, FFX had more detailing.

In which manner you chose to set gambits is entirely up to you, the game itself can't be blamed if you chose to set gambits so characters would grind on their own, the game gave you an option, it's up to you to chose which one you prefer, simple as that.

It's been a while since I had a good laugh, you do know that Final Fantasy XII is one of the best if not the best looking game on PS2, it's animations, and cut scenes are better looking, and more detailed than those in Final Fantasy X, common sense really.

Characters- Well the characters didn't show enough emotion. I meant Vaan and penelo more than the others. About balthier tho, you don't find his motivation till Arcadia which is long into the game. He is basically just there till that part. I liked the subsidiary characters, they were more interesting. I was hoping reddas was gunna be a party character but nope >.>

Not enough emotions? I really do hope you know what emotions are, joy, sadness, anger, anticipation, just to name few. Now, how the hell you missed to see those, and more, in characters of Final Fantasy XII. Vaan showed his emotions more than any character in Final Fantasy XII, anger, and saddens in quite a few occasions, and I really don't need to point that he was cheerfuller and light hearted fellow, which he showed through entire game.

By your logic Balthier is far from good character since his motives are revealed to player halfway through the game, if so, we should cross quite a few characters my friend, few protagonist as well, as they usually obtain real motives halfway through the game. Take Squall for instance, for majority of game he fought because he was ordered to, only later he started to care for his friends, and fell in love with Rinoa, thus decided to fight because he wanted to protect them, what a lame character, right?

Sound- I read why the sound is different on another forum, but I forgot. Yep, it is everywhere, maybe that's why I don't like the characters much cause the sound is of horrible quality. I remember on phon coast, I was expecting something like FFX's voice acting but... It was muted harshly, or maybe cause I been playing PIano for 7-8 years my perception of tonality is strong lol

You do know that sound includes both music, and voice acting. Final Fantasy XII is praised for both, especially the voice acting, many, including those who dislike Final Fantasy XII, consider it to be a huge step forward, superior to the one from Final Fantasy X. Do you really think no one would notice issue of such caliber, especially if it was in a popular game as Final Fantasy XII.

Well, the only characters that need to be in the main party are the characters that have direct influence on the story progression.
Seplhie was pointless really about halfway through, same with Irvine halfway through. Quina... do we even need to say? Mog and umaro are more easter eggs but ya catch my drift lol. Vaan and penelo, other than penelos peach syndrome, had no direct influence on the storyline other than Last minute discussions. Most NPC's out of rabrenaster talked to ashe and Basch more than Vaan

Well then, Square would need to remove quite a few characters. You're right you know, we should remove Vaan from the game, how rude of Square to put character which player can easily relate to, character who experienced harsh side of Arcadian conquest, to illustrate what it means when regular fellow stands against tyranny, character who's not cliched, far from smartass, curious and willing to learn, instead they should have gone with cliched protagonist, angsty teen with bigass sword and inhuman strength, intelligent, and capable right from the start, leader who often makes doubtful, rather stupid decisions, thus leading his party in deathly situations, but they still follow him for unknown reason, yes, that's better, Square should have gone with such character. I'm sure you would adore him or her.

[JuzamDjinn]

Music was praised because it was actually good, to quote one of the reviewers "I actually don't feel the absence of Nobuo Uematsu".

Not just Final Fantasy XIII, after playing Final Fantasy XII every game in franchise feels restricted, and linear.

Not enough emotions? I really do hope you know what emotions are, joy, sadness, anger, anticipation, just to name few. Now, how the hell you missed to see those, and more, in characters of Final Fantasy XII. Vaan showed his emotions more than any character in Final Fantasy XII, anger, and saddens in quite a few occasions, and I really don't need to point that he was cheerfuller and light hearted fellow, which he showed through entire game.

I thought the music was really good too in this one. funny you should mention the quote. The boss theme had measures from the FFVII boss music.

All non MMO games feel restriced after playing MMOs.

o0Odin0o: don't bother trying to have an opinion about these characters.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Technicality? Care to elaborate that a bit more.

Music was praised because it was actually good, to quote one of the reviewers "I actually don't feel the absence of Nobuo Uematsu".



Not just Final Fantasy XIII, after playing Final Fantasy XII every game in franchise feels restricted, and linear.



I can't get rid of this impression that you actually haven't played Final Fantasy XII. You do know Yiazmat is the biggest challenge not just in Final Fantasy XII, but in the entire franchise as well. Battle alone lasts five hours, and that's if you're excellent at it, if not, add couple of hours more. Skilled players, with maxed characters, best equipment, and well set gambits, have difficulties defeating Yiazmat, and you're telling me that he's no problem with characters at level 80. Omega Weapon, little challenging? Now I know that you're full of shit. If you need that quantity of phoenix down's, what does that tell you about game's difficulty.



In which manner you chose to set gambits is entirely up to you, the game itself can't be blamed if you chose to set gambits so characters would grind on their own, the game gave you an option, it's up to you to chose which one you prefer, simple as that.

It's been a while since I had a good laugh, you do know that Final Fantasy XII is one of the best if not the best looking game on PS2, it's animations, and cut scenes are better looking, and more detailed than those in Final Fantasy X, common sense really.



Not enough emotions? I really do hope you know what emotions are, joy, sadness, anger, anticipation, just to name few. Now, how the hell you missed to see those, and more, in characters of Final Fantasy XII. Vaan showed his emotions more than any character in Final Fantasy XII, anger, and saddens in quite a few occasions, and I really don't need to point that he was cheerfuller and light hearted fellow, which he showed through entire game.

By your logic Balthier is far from good character since his motives are revealed to player halfway through the game, if so, we should cross quite a few characters my friend, few protagonist as well, as they usually obtain real motives halfway through the game. Take Squall for instance, for majority of game he fought because he was ordered to, only later he started to care for his friends, and fell in love with Rinoa, thus decided to fight because he wanted to protect them, what a lame character, right?



You do know that sound includes both music, and voice acting. Final Fantasy XII is praised for both, especially the voice acting, many, including those who dislike Final Fantasy XII, consider it to be a huge step forward, superior to the one from Final Fantasy X. Do you really think no one would notice issue of such caliber, especially if it was in a popular game as Final Fantasy XII.



Well then, Square would need to remove quite a few characters. You're right you know, we should remove Vaan from the game, how rude of Square to put character which player can easily relate to, character who experienced harsh side of Arcadian conquest, to illustrate what it means when regular fellow stands against tyranny, character who's not cliched, far from smartass, curious and willing to learn, instead they should have gone with cliched protagonist, angsty teen with bigass sword and inhuman strength, intelligent, and capable right from the start, leader who often makes doubtful, rather stupid decisions, thus leading his party in deathly situations, but they still follow him for unknown reason, yes, that's better, Square should have gone with such character. I'm sure you would adore him or her.

Angry much? Well allot of things I have posted have LITERAL technical reasons, not just opinionated reasons so your opinion is worthless in certain manors, but here goes nothing... again ^^

Round two with more descriptions behind it

Music: Music in a technical sense could not have been as technically superior in the 8-bit era than FF12's. But the lack of set themes and lack of forced themes makes certain areas of the game less symbolic. Plus the lack of mutual harmonies kinda screws certain potentially great sounding "themes" off, but that's an opinion.

World: Hmm, well that can be argued a sense of opinion and personal taste but, being open and non-linear, most FF games are. Care to elaborate on that?

Difficulty: Yes I know who the heck yazmat is. He was not difficult, more of an endurance challenge. If you mean the last 1/3 of his HP when his lv increases to 140 something, still, not much of a challenge. Did I die? No.
Enemies like Zodiark, Elder Wyrm, Famfrit, and omega gave me challenge before hand cause I underestimated them for wiping out the normal enemies before hand. However Yazmat I expected a challenge, and guess what, I only used 4 of 6 characters to win. Am I master of the game? Damn right, I went a solo run with basch and did a 122333 challenge as well so I'm not a troll when it comes to the game. Not mentioning a redundant final battle that showed little difficulty.

*laughs* Well, squall had a reason to be in the party at all times. His overall final mission was found out later. Unlike Balthier, who what, wanted to steal something, then got dragged until Arcadia? Or Bur omisace at least.

That thing you said, about not having my characters set up like grinding beasts was a little... dunce lol. What else is the battle system used for? You put attack, heal, revive, use set magic and bleh. If you have a good overall strategy, than you=win.

They used a different graphics system so don't laugh if you don't understand. Why? People who know what I am talking about in a technical standpoint will laugh at you. FF12 used more smoothing than pinned detailing of FFX. So, unless you like smoother graphics and a palette that's based on orange and blue, which also helps the blur effect, than you have bad eyes, or just don't care to compare, or a FF12 fanboy lol

And coming into emotions... I know ALOT about emotions, trust me. I am currently into the psychology of fear, but have studied in Emotions and Beauty. That game had horrible emotional IQ, why did they overreact in comparative to the certain situation or not in others? Bad reasoning skills and everything tho that could have just been due to the writers EIQ's or something Idk lol.

Voice acting: There is another technical flaw of yours. There are reasons why it sounds muted, but I forgot the reasons. If you cannot hear the mute sounds of the voicing, then damn lol. But really, it has something to do with the panning of voice and wear they voice recorded. THey reduced the BG sound and increased the Voice acting and with the horrible recording, muted the tones of the characters making them sound... like they have cotton balls in their throat. Look up on it before you make anymore... Dunce "opinions."

Again you put your opinions in others mouths. We can relate too? No no no no no. People relate to those with similar personalities. Unless your personality is abnormal. Or extremely abstract then... And actually, what sounds cooler in all reality. A character with a cool sword, and current generations dogma of "cool," or a random character that most would walk by in real life.

Oh and, I never got past the materia keeper in FF7 and actually hate it soo...

Before you reply with harsh or hardened words or latin phrases (^o^), I meant no direct offense, just arguing opinions and or showing literal flaws in your opinions.
Example. "I like horses that are born blue and have horns". Obviously a opinion but there are obviously reasons to digress lol

[Angel of Iniquity]

Sorry to double post, really am but how due I quote individual sections?

[Zidane77]

Materia keeper, really?
It's such a super easy boss, no offense.
If you wanna go the easiest way,use Trine,summons or Climhazzard and he's gone.
If you don't have any of that, get Vincent and use his limit break. That's guy's a piece of mincemeat.

[Xanatos]

Angry much? Well allot of things I have posted have LITERAL technical reasons, not just opinionated reasons so your opinion is worthless in certain manors, but here goes nothing... again ^^

Angry? Not really. Don't let my posts fool you, I enjoy a good debate, and there was nothing you wrote that would make me angry.

Everything I said so far was either featured in actual game or has been already pointed in multiple reviews, if my statements are worthless, or by any chance wrong, that means the game itself is deceiving, and those who reviewed it are far from professionals.

Music: Music in a technical sense could not have been as technically superior in the 8-bit era than FF12's. But the lack of set themes and lack of forced themes makes certain areas of the game less symbolic. Plus the lack of mutual harmonies kinda screws certain potentially great sounding "themes" off, but that's an opinion.

Music from 8 bit era and onwards can't be compared to what Final Fantasy XII offers, that's true indeed, but with remakes, and actual soundtracks on sale music of those game improved greatly, thus technicality barrier is no longer there, despite of it, music of several games in franchise has yet to achieve the same praise as the one from Final Fantasy XII. Music of Final Fantasy XII is highly praised, fact that it's not your cup of tea is another thing entirely.

World: Hmm, well that can be argued a sense of opinion and personal taste but, being open and non-linear, most FF games are. Care to elaborate on that?

As you wish. Events of earlier titles are set in areas where images are used as a background, it gives you feel of depth, in reality you're restricted to move in one linear path with little to no freedom. World Map offers you limited amount of freedom, limited, as you can't move from location to location if certain requirements aren't fulfilled.

Difficulty: Yes I know who the heck yazmat is. He was not difficult, more of an endurance challenge. If you mean the last 1/3 of his HP when his lv increases to 140 something, still, not much of a challenge. Did I die? No.Enemies like Zodiark, Elder Wyrm, Famfrit, and omega gave me challenge before hand cause I underestimated them for wiping out the normal enemies before hand. However Yazmat I expected a challenge, and guess what, I only used 4 of 6 characters to win. Am I master of the game? Damn right, I went a solo run with basch and did a 122333 challenge as well so I'm not a troll when it comes to the game. Not mentioning a redundant final battle that showed little difficulty.

Endurance challenge, challenge nevertheless. If Omega Weapon, ElderWyrm, Zodiark, Famfrit were challenging at some degree, if you rely on phoenix down's as much as you say what does that tell you about game's difficulty. As for the final battle, I have yet to see a final boss that was somewhat challenging, some mention Ultimecia, but both her, and Omega Weapon were laughable to those who knew how to exploit the junction system, rather easy thing to do.

In which Final Fantasy can you encounter an opponent at the very beginning of the game, capable of pawning you even later on higher levels. Not just one opponent, some you can't even scratch the first time you encounter them, and even later they prove to be somewhat difficult. Since Final Fantasy XII is far from challenging game, please do tell which Final Fantasy is, and why.

*laughs* Well, squall had a reason to be in the party at all times. His overall final mission was found out later. Unlike Balthier, who what, wanted to steal something, then got dragged until Arcadia? Or Bur omisace at least.

Balthier knew what he was heading into the first time he saw Ashe, if he was to aid the rebellion army in any way whatsoever, it would mean he would actually need to work against his own nation. There was a chance that he may actually encounter his own father, Cidolfus Demen Bunansa, if he was to follow Ashe. Helping rebellion to stand against Arcadian empire was opportunity to solve his own problems as well, you see, his motives were there, and were rather clear from the very start of Final Fantasy XII.

Balthier acted on his own, he made his own decisions, his motives where there from the very beginning, Squall on the other hand acted not because he wanted to, but because he was ordered to. For major part of the game he was like a puppet on strings, to quote the character itself "Give me an order, and I shall act". He didn't have motives or reason to fight, he didn't care to begin with, which was more than perfectly shown through major part of the game. The very thing you were complaining about, yet you wish to keep a blind eye.

That thing you said, about not having my characters set up like grinding beasts was a little... dunce lol. What else is the battle system used for? You put attack, heal, revive, use set magic and bleh. If you have a good overall strategy, than you=win.

Please do once again read what I wrote in my earlier post, would you kindly.

Here's explanation if help is needed. If my memories serves me well, you complained about lack of control over the characters in midst of battle. On which scale will you control the characters is entirely up to you, a mean to accomplish that are gambits. If gambits are set so characters will preform battle commands themselves, game itself can't be blamed, after all the player is the one who set the gambits, to blame someone else for your actions is stupid at best.

They used a different graphics system so don't laugh if you don't understand. Why? People who know what I am talking about in a technical standpoint will laugh at you. FF12 used more smoothing than pinned detailing of FFX. So, unless you like smoother graphics and a palette that's based on orange and blue, which also helps the blur effect, than you have bad eyes, or just don't care to compare, or a FF12 fanboy lol

I'm far from expert on that field, but I do know someone who is. Apparently Final Fantasy XII looks smoother, more fluid, more polygons are used for characters, and monsters, thus in some aspects it's more detailed. I have no reason not to believe his words as he has yet to let me down, thus I stick to my original statement.

And coming into emotions... I know ALOT about emotions, trust me. I am currently into the psychology of fear, but have studied in Emotions and Beauty. That game had horrible emotional IQ, why did they overreact in comparative to the certain situation or not in others? Bad reasoning skills and everything tho that could have just been due to the writers EIQ's or something Idk lol.

In your last post you were complaining about lack of emotions, suddenly emotions are featured, but apparently are bad, think you can decide which one? For someone who apparently knows psychology I would expect to know more about characters, or at least to understand them more, yet you seeked help to understand Vayne more in one of the threads? Where do difficulties to understand Balthier's struggle, and motives come from, how come you don't understand what Vaan represents? I'm sure you're into psychology, but I highly doubt you're good at it, no offense whatsoever.

Voice acting: There is another technical flaw of yours. There are reasons why it sounds muted, but I forgot the reasons. If you cannot hear the mute sounds of the voicing, then damn lol. But really, it has something to do with the panning of voice and wear they voice recorded. THey reduced the BG sound and increased the Voice acting and with the horrible recording, muted the tones of the characters making them sound... like they have cotton balls in their throat. Look up on it before you make anymore... Dunce "opinions."

Since you're fairly sure there's something wrong with the overall sound, I'll have to ask what exactly, and a link that proves your claim.

Funny how no one noticed an issue of such caliber, especially in hit game as Final Fantasy XII, except for you it seems, guess not all of us have inhuman hearing.

Again you put your opinions in others mouths. We can relate too? No no no no no. People relate to those with similar personalities. Unless your personality is abnormal. Or extremely abstract then... And actually, what sounds cooler in all reality. A character with a cool sword, and current generations dogma of "cool," or a random character that most would walk by in real life.

And where exactly did I mention that we can relate to his personality? What he represents, and the way he looks at the world of Ivalice, that we can relate to.

You're quite amusing fella you know, you claim to be expert in categories where opposition has pined you down hard, yet you fail to back your words with concrete facts, and proof if opposition asks one, mighty fine expert.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Angry? Not really. Don't let my posts fool you, I enjoy a good debate, and there was nothing you wrote that would make me angry.

Yeh, Don't mind that, not used to debates and what you posted could have been taken serious in real situations, not debates so my bad lol

Everything I said so far was either featured in actual game or has been already pointed in multiple reviews, if my statements are worthless, or by any chance wrong, that means the game itself is deceiving, and those who reviewed it are far from professionals.

Well, being a reviewer is a highly unprofessional job, not to take anyways profession away but, what are the requirements to be one? I know you need average VG understanding and an open mind but places like IGN are HIGHLY biased. You know IGN is mostly Xbox fans?

Music from 8 bit era and onwards can't be compared to what Final Fantasy XII offers, that's true indeed, but with remakes, and actual soundtracks on sale music of those game improved greatly, thus technicality barrier is no longer there, despite of it, music of several games in franchise has yet to achieve the same praise as the one from Final Fantasy XII. Music of Final Fantasy XII is highly praised, fact that it's not your cup of tea is another thing entirely.

Well yea, it is mostly opinion, because they also said FF13's music was great, which from a musical standpoint, fails.

As you wish. Events of earlier titles are set in areas where images are used as a background, it gives you feel of depth, in reality you're restricted to move in one linear path with little to no freedom. World Map offers you limited amount of freedom, limited, as you can't move from location to location if certain requirements aren't fulfilled.

Yes I see, tho I do believe in some older FF"s you can go other [placesw, just at your own disposal despite being killed lol.
You are right though in one definet thing. You can wander in FF12 in an area your not supposed to be at a moment.... Feywood, Nabudis...
But, even in FF12 you are restricted in certain ways. At the beginning of the game, two werewolfs prevent you from heading past the giza plains I think, if not giza, the place before there. But, if you so manage to get past those 2 enemies, the path is not there. Same with the northen estersand.

Endurance challenge, challenge nevertheless. If Omega Weapon, ElderWyrm, Zodiark, Famfrit were challenging at some degree, if you rely on phoenix down's as much as you say what does that tell you about game's difficulty. As for the final battle, I have yet to see a final boss that was somewhat challenging, some mention Ultimecia, but both her, and Omega Weapon were laughable to those who knew how to exploit the junction system, rather easy thing to do.

In which Final Fantasy can you encounter an opponent at the very beginning of the game, capable of pawning you even later on higher levels. Not just one opponent, some you can't even scratch the first time you encounter them, and even later they prove to be somewhat difficult. Since Final Fantasy XII is far from challenging game, please do tell which Final Fantasy is, and why.

Well, that's the thing. Not to sound cocky but maybe I could understand the FF12 battle system quicker and easier than others.
Okay. about the phoenix downs. I didn't need 99 of them, I just had the money to so I did, and died like twice more during the game... Screw you elder wyrm...
The most difficult FF in my eyes were either FF13 for it's lack of character development(leveling) and jumping enemy difficulties.(Boxed phalanx)
Or it would be... ehh, nah, that's it. FF8 hard at first but I was 12-14 >//>

Balthier acted on his own, he made his own decisions, his motives where there from the very beginning, Squall on the other hand acted not because he wanted to, but because he was ordered to. For major part of the game he was like a puppet on strings, to quote the character itself "Give me an order, and I shall act". He didn't have motives or reason to fight, he didn't care to begin with, which was more than perfectly shown through major part of the game. The very thing you were complaining about, yet you wish to keep a blind eye.

Well, it is just opinion but, it was squall attitude and his ability to show emotion(those little self moments he had every ten seconds lol) that I liked, I just didn't like the personalities of the characters from FF12. Uninteresting and actually, honestly, were kinda bleh in comparative to what was happening in their world.

Please do once again read what I wrote in my earlier post, would you kindly.

Here's explanation if help is needed. If my memories serves me well, you complained about lack of control over the characters in midst of battle. On which scale will you control the characters is entirely up to you, a mean to accomplish that are gambits. If gambits are set so characters will preform battle commands themselves, game itself can't be blamed, after all the player is the one who set the gambits, to blame someone else for your actions is stupid at best.

Well, what else can you do with the gambit system, I mean character control, without adding to the difficulty? I really don't know so please tell me lol

I'm far from expert on that field, but I do know someone who is. Apparently Final Fantasy XII looks smoother, more fluid, more polygons are used for characters, and monsters, thus in some aspects it's more detailed. I have no reason not to believe his words as he has yet to let me down, thus I stick to my original statement.

Oh, I noticed what I said... >.>
I meant Cgi graphics. The in game graphics, other than their hair and same structured blended eyes, are superior than FFX. I meant the CGI graphics.
My fault on that one.

In your last post you were complaining about lack of emotions, suddenly emotions are featured, but apparently are bad, think you can decide which one? For someone who apparently knows psychology I would expect to know more about characters, or at least to understand them more, yet you seeked help to understand Vayne more in one of the threads? Where do difficulties to understand Balthier's struggle, and motives come from, how come you don't understand what Vaan represents? I'm sure you're into psychology, but I highly doubt you're good at it, no offense whatsoever.

No offense taken, don't worry about it lol
This might get confusing so try to deal with me here ^^
I didn't care enough about the characters to listen to their stories. LOL
That's why. I don't have FF12 anymore, and am hoping the rumors of a FFX, FFX-2, and FF12 rerelease for PS3 happens. But honestly, I really didn't know allot about the characters. Because I skipped the intro Cutscene, I immediately got lost in the story and never caught foot of it, or cared cause it looked like reminded me of starwars and those movies were to long haha
Oh and... Schitzotypal personality syndrome may cause my eccentric speaking patterns or inability to 100% describe things correct cause in my mind, it makes too much sense to me lol

Since you're fairly sure there's something wrong with the overall sound, I'll have to ask what exactly, and a link that proves your claim.

Funny how no one noticed an issue of such caliber, especially in hit game as Final Fantasy XII, except for you it seems, guess not all of us have inhuman hearing.

Sure, I'll post a link, but really, I have near pitch perfect hearing, and perfect tonal reception. I have GREAT hearing haha.
YouTube - Final Fantasy XII: Cutscenes (pt. 3)

Does that reverb indicate they are outside? Nahh. It sounds more like a padded room reverb

And where exactly did I mention that we can relate to his personality? What he represents, and the way he looks at the world of Ivalice, that we can relate to.

You're quite amusing fella you know, you claim to be expert in categories where opposition has pined you down hard, yet you fail to back your words with concrete facts, and proof if opposition asks one, mighty fine expert.

Nahh, with psychology, I am better at finding disorders with Emotions, fear and science of beauty.

It's hard for me to type the facts because it makes too much sense to me and describing why irritates my head lol

I like debates, nobody takes to heart haha

Edit: @ Zidane77. It wasn't that he was hard, it was more that the game got a little boring, tho everybody says it gets great after this boss.

[Xanatos]

Well, being a reviewer is a highly unprofessional job, not to take anyways profession away but, what are the requirements to be one? I know you need average VG understanding and an open mind but places like IGN are HIGHLY biased. You know IGN is mostly Xbox fans?

Actually, they're considered to be professionals at what they do, unlike us common fans bias opinion is something they can't afford. It's still one man's opinion, which may or may not be same as yours, nevertheless Final Fantasy XII holds 92 points on metacritic, majority or reviewers think of it as quality game.

Yes I see, tho I do believe in some older FF"s you can go other [placesw, just at your own disposal despite being killed lol.
You are right though in one definet thing. You can wander in FF12 in an area your not supposed to be at a moment.... Feywood, Nabudis...
But, even in FF12 you are restricted in certain ways. At the beginning of the game, two werewolfs prevent you from heading past the giza plains I think, if not giza, the place before there. But, if you so manage to get past those 2 enemies, the path is not there. Same with the northen estersand.

You seem to forget the most important fact, background images, which restricted player to narrow, one linear path. With huge open spaces Final Fantasy XII offered more freedom.

Well, that's the thing. Not to sound cocky but maybe I could understand the FF12 battle system quicker and easier than others.
Okay. about the phoenix downs. I didn't need 99 of them, I just had the money to so I did, and died like twice more during the game... Screw you elder wyrm...
The most difficult FF in my eyes were either FF13 for it's lack of character development(leveling) and jumping enemy difficulties.(Boxed phalanx)
Or it would be... ehh, nah, that's it. FF8 hard at first but I was 12-14 >//>

Can't vouch for Final Fantasy XIII as I have yet to play it, though compared to it's predecessors Final Fantasy XII is overall challenging game, not just battles, collecting gil, and exploring require more effort as well, it has nothing to do with my personal opinion.

Well, it is just opinion but, it was squall attitude and his ability to show emotion(those little self moments he had every ten seconds lol) that I liked, I just didn't like the personalities of the characters from FF12. Uninteresting and actually, honestly, were kinda bleh in comparative to what was happening in their world.

Please, do not make fool of me. Your complaint was solely about Balthiers lack of motives through one period of game, there was no lack of such which I backed up with facts, and gave you a perfect example of character who in fact had no motives for his actions through one period of game. Either stick to the subject or don't comment at all. Speaking of personality, you do know what kind of personality characters in Final Fantasy XII have, strange, weren't you the one who doesn't know much about characters, didn't care to keep track of the story, your words not mine.

Oh, I noticed what I said... >.>
I meant Cgi graphics. The in game graphics, other than their hair and same structured blended eyes, are superior than FFX. I meant the CGI graphics.
My fault on that one.

And how exactly would you compare CGI animations of both games, is there particular way to compare them or you made your judgment solely by looking at them. I highly doubt Square would chose to go with different, inferior approach, knowing how good they are in that particular field, and how much they improve CGI animations with every new game.

No offense taken, don't worry about it lol
This might get confusing so try to deal with me here ^^
I didn't care enough about the characters to listen to their stories. LOL
That's why. I don't have FF12 anymore, and am hoping the rumors of a FFX, FFX-2, and FF12 rerelease for PS3 happens. But honestly, I really didn't know allot about the characters. Because I skipped the intro Cutscene, I immediately got lost in the story and never caught foot of it, or cared cause it looked like reminded me of starwars and those movies were to long haha
Oh and... Schitzotypal personality syndrome may cause my eccentric speaking patterns or inability to 100% describe things correct cause in my mind, it makes too much sense to me lol

Let me get this straight. You were prepared to bash characters of Final Fantasy XII even though you don't know much about them, nor cared to learn a thing or two, for sake of discussion if nothing else. What's with all those cocky statements in your previous posts, on which foundations have you based those.

Sure, I'll post a link, but really, I have near pitch perfect hearing, and perfect tonal reception. I have GREAT hearing haha.
YouTube - Final Fantasy XII: Cutscenes (pt. 3)

Does that reverb indicate they are outside? Nahh. It sounds more like a padded room reverb

I beg of you, don't waste my time. If you can't find a proper link to back up your own words, don't try at all. Low quality, poorly recorded Youtube video is best you got. When I said I wanted to see proof, I expected, and still do, an article or video where issue is addressed, not something you noticed in low quality video.

Nahh, with psychology, I am better at finding disorders with Emotions, fear and science of beauty.

It's hard for me to type the facts because it makes too much sense to me and describing why irritates my head lol

Let's run down the facts, shall we. You were prepared to bash the characters even though you don't know much about them, and were wiling to admit that, you were eager to point one of the game flaws, which only you have noticed it seems, not just that you failed to back up your claim with proper proof, but claim itself is based on questionable source. You claim to be expert in few subjects we discussed, but your statements were flawed, and rather poor for an expert, shall I point the graphics comparison while I'm at it, half of the complaints have nothing to do with the game itself, but rather your personal preference. You give me petty excuses at times you can't back up your own words...

look, you're interesting fellow, you certainly try hard, but I simply don't have time to play with you.

[Angel of Iniquity]

look, you're interesting fellow, you certainly try hard, but I simply don't have time to play with you.

Okay, listen, Say what you want but you are being highly narsisistic. Yes, I know what I am talkin about, I hav more than backed up y claims on most accounts. I was clearly stating at first why I didn't think the game waws good, and or disclaiming what you said, which was again mostly Opinions.

You are a FF12 fanboy, don't deny that, that's the truth.

Time and time again I have proved my points over and over again with much validity, but this is aggravating. You can't argue opinions and you can;t argue facts, so what are discussion or debates about? I know what they are about, but in this thread, debates are ridiculous.

I'm not going to reply, don't you think you caught me off from this with your last statement, I just noticed that everything I would say, you would be a smart ass and disregard me. That's not a debate, that's a belittling of an others opinion and intellect. -


No matter what you say, FF7 will be regarded as the superior FF game, and there is nothing you can say about that because that is an innumerable amount os opinions behind that.
And this is my Opinion, FF12 is an horrible excuse of a FF game.

[JuzamDjinn]

He wont stop o0Odin0o, just let him have it. FFXII is clearly very important to this guy.
He was just as passionate surring his "debate" against my posts.

[Angel of Iniquity]

He wont stop o0Odin0o, just let him have it. FFXII is clearly very important to this guy.
He was just as passionate surring his "debate" against my posts.

XD
I agree, that statement, "I have no time to play with you," is a highly degrading term. I can guarantee he could not understand half of the thing I have in my intellectual possession, but I will stop, I want no warning lol

[Xanatos]

Okay, listen, Say what you want but you are being highly narsisistic. Yes, I know what I am talkin about, I hav more than backed up y claims on most accounts. I was clearly stating at first why I didn't think the game waws good, and or disclaiming what you said, which was again mostly Opinions.

You are a FF12 fanboy, don't deny that, that's the truth.

Time and time again I have proved my points over and over again with much validity, but this is aggravating. You can't argue opinions and you can;t argue facts, so what are discussion or debates about? I know what they are about, but in this thread, debates are ridiculous.

I'm not going to reply, don't you think you caught me off from this with your last statement, I just noticed that everything I would say, you would be a smart ass and disregard me. That's not a debate, that's a belittling of an others opinion and intellect. -


No matter what you say, FF7 will be regarded as the superior FF game, and there is nothing you can say about that because that is an innumerable amount os opinions behind that.
And this is my Opinion, FF12 is an horrible excuse of a FF game.

It's no secret that I adore Final Fantasy XII, though for your information I consider myself to be a Final Fantasy IX fanboy, those who are on this site longer than you can confirm this. You can call me Final Fantasy XII fanboy, I don't mind, after all I know my Final Fantasy.

Validity? You were eager to openly admit that you don't know much about both story, and characters, nor you cared to learn, and I shall take your points as valid when they don't have foundations to begin with.

You can't argue fact's, true indeed, but then again, you never offered me facts to begin with. Everything you wrote was based on your own opinion, for God's sake you couldn't even back your biggest claim with valid source, and apparently you're expert on that field.

You'll have to excuse me if I skipped that part, but ongoing debate between us was about Final Fantasy XII in general, rather than Final Fantasy VII vs Final Fantasy XII. Even if it was otherwise I highly doubt you would contribute much on that part, not just because you're far from beating the game, but in several occasion you were eager to admit your hate for Final Fantasy VII, your opinion would be highly biased. One more thing, weren't you the one who called Final Fantasy XII a great game, even compared to Final Fantasy XII, you sure do change your opinion rather quick.

As for my responses, and debate in general, the game itself backed my words, there was no personal opinion, no preference, but pure facts.

XD
I agree, that statement, "I have no time to play with you," is a highly degrading term. I can guarantee he could not understand half of the thing I have in my intellectual possession, but I will stop, I want no warning lol

Please do show me your intellectual level, by all means respond, give me solid facts, valid source to your claims. This time though, back up your words, offer me more than petty excuses in manner "I know the reason, but I forgot", "I can explain that but it's hard to type the facts that make sense to me", I typed that wrong, it's not what I meant to say", "I'm into psychology, but not quite in part required for this discussion", and next time you decide to give source that will back your words, keep in mind that it has to address the issue you were speaking of, not some kind low quality Youtube video that has nothing to do with your own claims.

Do not take my response as offense, nor should you take this discussion close to heart, I do apologize if any of my posts seem offensive, or you've taken one as such, it's just the way I respond.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Facts.
The voice acting did not have the same reverb as the settings portrayed. They compressed the voices and did not add any Reverb, only time they were in singulatiry was in the CGI cutscenes.
Link vvv Does it sound like they are at the pharos?
YouTube - Final Fantasy XII Cutscene (Ashe's Decision)
^^^

If you cannot hear it than it's your own hearing. Yes, I have noticed that the reviewers had nothing to say about it, as were many complaints about it were. Check google.

This is an opinion from an educated psychologist, as in there is nothing you can say about my opinion. They did not portray emotions good enough to convince me they were really feeling their emotions. Does that make sense now? Since I skipped the beginning, and they did not productively portray emotion, I did not care for the story cause the story must have not been strong enough to actively stray their emotions. That was an opinionated fact. Tho it can be taken as otherwise if you so want to defend the damn game.
The game is not challenging for me, as the first time I did not have any phoenix downs in comparative to I would have now. So it is not based on numerous opinions, enough to be considered a fact. IT was really biased to say it was not based on your opinion, if it hurts your ego that you had trouble on this game, and somebody who you feel inferior had no trouble, then for your ego, I will say it was hard (it wasn't).
Offered more freedom? So you are saying that the better Field graphics presented a feeling of more open spaces? That again would be considered a psychiatric reason and can't be vilified as unbiased truth.

As I had said, "Schitzotypal personality syndrome may cause my eccentric speaking patterns or inability to 100% describe things correct cause in my mind, it makes too much sense to me," so when you directly insult my intellect, I will take it to heart, especially when you disdain the personality disorder.

And another random fact. People with this disorder tend to have a better realization on most things. Meaning that I may understand things faster than others, but in tern, can't replicated why they make sense to others, because they make too much sense to myself and I can't understand why people don't get it. As in audio, graphics, and other elements of the game.

Yes, the game was good, that comment was clearly an egotistical rant. (the one I said about FF12)