Are Vanille and Fang lesbians?

[Angel of Iniquity]

Ahh, you are right, perhaps I thought so because of the mythos chance and reading random forums about htis other places, seems I should keep to the real FF forums lol

[Unknown Entity]

It's difficult to have evidence handy when there's hardly any evidence to back up either claim.

We know very little of their background before their time with the rest of the party and we're only given a brief insight into their relationship while on their last focus.

We don't? Okay. I believe it was six-hundred years before the event of the game that there was this huge war between Cocoon and Pulse. I don't remember much about the war, but it's mostly explained in a show Sazh and Vanille watch shorty after they part ways from the others. During that war, Fang and Vanille's families were killed and they were sent to an orphanage in Oerbra. That's where they met and they became close, and it explains why they've got different names.

Sure, this no more or no less supports either that they're lovers or not, but it displays that they had no one else. Throughout the game Fang and Vanille have this constant thing going on about family, and how the others in the party are their new family. So we gather that they just want to be part of a family with others, as opposed to wanting to stay together as a "couple".

"Listen, you're not alone anymore. We have a new family now. We stick together, you hear me?"

In the ending, they had to leave their "family" in order to complete their Focus, as they'd failed to complete it the first time (or more so, Fang wasn't strong enough to complete it, and if I remember correctly, is the reason why Cocoon has a huge hole in the side of it). In the end, they had to complete their Focus together as just one of them wouldn't be strong enough to do it. They're both highly protective of each other and their family, so they did this as a final act to protect everyone.

Their last focus and the insight you get simply displays how close they are. They'd known each other for centuries, and had built up a strong sisterly bond. Just because they're close, doesn't mean they're together.

There's no evidence of a romantic relationship at all. So why have people developed this idea that they're a lesbian couple? Argue all you want that I have no evidence to back up my claims that they're not, but if Square had wanted them to be lesbians, A) It would be much, much more obvious (Rosa/Cecil, Cloud/Aeris/Tifa, Squall/Riona, Irvine/Selphie, Tidus/Yuna, Wakka/Lulu, Balthier/Fran (debatable, like this topic), Snow/Serah); and B) there'd be huge controversy on the matter, as it'd be the first same-sex relationship in Final Fantasy - a HUGE franchise which influences hundreds of thousands of fans around the world.

[Heartless Angel]

They probably intentionally avoided giving clear evidence either way. Over the years I've come to notice, Square enjoys confusing us. Or maybe they just though 4chan's Yuri board needed a new topic of discussion, who the Hell knows.

They strike me as more sisters than lovers, but I can see it being either way. I don't think they're directly related to one another, the Oerba part of the name seems to refer to their home. Their bond is very strong, so it's unlikely they've only known each other for a short time, and Vanille is fairly young, so one can reasonably assume they're childhood friends at least. Since they're both orphans, they could have very easily formed a bond similar to those of sisters. The apparent age difference may have led Fang to take more of the motherly/protective older sister role. The sisterly/protective vibe is also sometimes characteristic of a dom/sub relationship, so they could very well be lesbians. But again, with no clear cut evidence for either position, the logical thing is to withold judgement until such time appropriate evidence exists, which may be never. Til then, I'd at least like to PRETEND they're lesbians ;]

[Joyful Blue]

It's difficult to have evidence handy when there's hardly any evidence to back up either claim.

That's my point in a nut shell really. Like we've both said, this is a forum so for there to be no opinions present from either side would kind of defeat the object, but the way certain viewpoints are being dismissed seems a little crass as there simply isn't enough evidence to back up either claim. If someone interprets their relationship as a romantic one then who are we to tell them they're wrong? t's not the differing viewpoints I don't get, it's the blinkered views that don't allow any leeway.

The bottom line for me is that we don't know either way, so for someone to simply say that a viewpoint is flat-out wrong doesn't cut it with me.

I believe it was six-hundred years before the event of the game that there was this huge war between Cocoon and Pulse. I don't remember much about the war, but it's mostly explained in a show Sazh and Vanille watch shorty after they part ways from the others. During that war, Fang and Vanille's families were killed and they were sent to an orphanage in Oerbra. That's where they met and they became close, and it explains why they've got different names.

Sure, this no more or no less supports either that they're lovers or not, but it displays that they had no one else. Throughout the game Fang and Vanille have this constant thing going on about family, and how the others in the party are their new family. So we gather that they just want to be part of a family with others, as opposed to wanting to stay together as a "couple".

Well, you basically said what I would have done in the first line of your second paragraph there: this still doesn't support either argument. We all know about the "don't drop the soap" joke in prisons and where does this come from? When people are lonely they'll get what they can. Of course the whole debate of differing views on sex between men and women could arise from this point and that's is definitely not something I want to even think of talking about. What I'm saying is though that, well I probably don't need to explain it. They were together a long time with nobody else like you say. I'm not saying something did or didn't happen between the two of them and whether indeed it be through human instinct or not but....meh. Yeah I really don't need to expand on that.

In the ending, they had to leave their "family" in order to complete their Focus, as they'd failed to complete it the first time (or more so, Fang wasn't strong enough to complete it, and if I remember correctly, is the reason why Cocoon has a huge hole in the side of it). In the end, they had to complete their Focus together as just one of them wouldn't be strong enough to do it. They're both highly protective of each other and their family, so they did this as a final act to protect everyone.

Their last focus and the insight you get simply displays how close they are. They'd known each other for centuries, and had built up a strong sisterly bond. Just because they're close, doesn't mean they're together.

You're totally right, but again this isn't ruling it out either. In fact all of that could well be attributed to a physical relationship just as easily. I'm trying to play devil's advocate here as I'm with you on all your viewpoints.

There's no evidence of a romantic relationship at all. So why have people developed this idea that they're a lesbian couple?

I would say the reason for that is one of two reasons: they either have an over-active imagination, or there is evidence there, even if it is subtle. I do remember seeing people on the likes of IGN etc. convinced that they were lesbians and like I said, as it was before I bought the game it led me to believe they were going to when I played it, as in it wasn't something up for debate or anything. Some of these people clearly though that there was something between them beyond friendship and there must be some reason for it. I can't tell you what it is though because I'm not them.

Argue all you want that I have no evidence to back up my claims that they're not, but if Square had wanted them to be lesbians, A) It would be much, much more obvious (Rosa/Cecil, Cloud/Aeris/Tifa, Squall/Riona, Irvine/Selphie, Tidus/Yuna, Wakka/Lulu, Balthier/Fran (debatable, like this topic), Snow/Serah);

Why would it have been more obvious? All those relationships you've listed have been with different sex couples and so it isn't a "taboo" subject as such. Surely a little more subtlety is just what the doctor ordered in this kind of situation? I would argue from a personal viewpoint that FFXIII may not have the strongest plot or fully realised environment, but it has by far the most well-rounded characters in terms of realism. I hate Snow and Hope with a passion, but I can't deny that they're good characters ad their personality really shines through. In that sense I think Square is entirely capable of writing in a more controversial(?) story along these lines without having to shout it out from the rooftops.

and B) there'd be huge controversy on the matter, as it'd be the first same-sex relationship in Final Fantasy - a HUGE franchise which influences hundreds of thousands of fans around the world.

Well like I said, there were a fair few people talking about it before I'd even played the game and well, it's certainly got us talking. I wouldn't be likely to spend this much time telling someone they can or can't revive Aeris....again.

They probably intentionally avoided giving clear evidence either way. Over the years I've come to notice, Square enjoys confusing us. Or maybe they just though 4chan's Yuri board needed a new topic of discussion, who the Hell knows.

I'm not quite sure I'd go that far, and I fear for the future of FF if their staff frequent 4chan! I'm with you on the fact that Square do like to leave loose ends...loose, so that's why I don't think you can be 100% sure of anything with that crazy bunch.

[Angel of Iniquity]

If I knew people would get this offended, I would never had posted this...>.>
Where I live, almost 60% of females are Bi, so I am used to seeing subtle relationship cues, plus i am an acting studying psychologist, but then again, can't try therapy on Video Games lol.

[Unknown Entity]

If I knew people would get this offended, I would never had posted this...>.>
Where I live, almost 60% of females are Bi, so I am used to seeing subtle relationship cues, plus i am an acting studying psychologist, but then again, can't try therapy on Video Games lol.

And that's what's making me laugh: no one is offended.

I'm open minded about sexuality/bisexual/pansexual/whatever, and I still don't see it with those two. I don't think it matters what sexuality the player is either. I'm not offended that anyone would think that they are at all - if they are, then great for them. I just don't think they are because I didn't pick up on anything remotely "more than friends" with Fang and Vanille, and I'm curious as to why people have gotten that impression.

Also, therapy doesn't work on video games very well. You're working with ideas someone else has created, and monitoring a character that doesn't exist.

Either way, I like the thread. Nice break from the Cloud/Aeris/Tifa thing. xD

[Dan558]

The whole "They are lesbians" thing is purely for fan fiction writers who stretch their clearly sister-like relationship into exaggerated fantasy. I've seen women many times do way more suggestive things yet are not even bisexual (people these days are retarded but that's not the point here...).

Maybe more will be seen in this FFXIII-2 that could show some more concrete proof of either arguement.

[joleine taylor]

No Not lesbians or lovers either sisters or very close friends. And respect to victoria for her hard hitting comments you told those boys you go girl!!!