Lay down your arms...

[Chez Daja]

Indeed. I just hate when alcohol is linked to crimes in a generalised way.

I never said that. In fact, I even stated that it isn't the root of all crimes.

Should we ban cars and the like as they give some people road rage which can result in another's injury or death?

What are you talking about? The difference between the two is that cars actually have a positive usage.

I have heard that, but I still think the individual should be held accountable for his/her actions. Alcohol doesn't kill your ability to make the right decision, it merely impairs it. And they decided to drink the alcohol in the first place meaning it's their own fault. If a person is addicted, that's fine. But anyone can quit if they want it enough...

I agree with to an extent, but how is being addicted "fine"? Some people can't quit because they're weak. My dad struggled with alcoholism for decades and in the end, he did manage to quit. But he wanted to quit way before he was able to.

And I agree. Chill out people, you all just need a good drink. Or ten.
Yeah, this is starting to get off topic, but it's still applicable if someone is mistaking the power of alcohol as a huge evil force taking countless lives, when it's really just a part of the cause for a small number of incidents.

No. Alcohol is associated and used in a LOT of incidents. Not ALL of them. It may be happy-happy lets all drink where you are, but it's much different here, and I'm pretty insulted by alot of what you've said. Obviously you've never been a first hand victim of a drunk persons' anger.

[Furore]

I never said that. In fact, I even stated that it isn't the root of all crimes.

I wasn't referring to you directly, I meant the way the thread was going after I pointed out that alcohol isn't as bad as some people make it out to be, yet someone did link it to this case and another. People don't stab someone just because they're drunk. I know that all too well.

What are you talking about? The difference between the two is that cars actually have a positive usage.

Alcohol is known to help some people socialise and the like as it relaxes them just as cars have the positive effect of providing transport. But just as alcohol has an ugly side, so do most cars in this age which kill the environment through their emissions, contribute to global warming and instill an anger known as 'Road Rage' in some which has also been behind deaths just as alcohol related anger has. Are cars directly to blame for a person's death? No, it's the people who use them. And I'm not including accidents here neither, merely the times where there's been the will to cause injury or death. Same as alcohol. You get a few incidents, but same goes for a lot of things.

I agree with to an extent, but how is being addicted "fine"? Some people can't quit because they're weak. My dad struggled with alcoholism for decades and in the end, he did manage to quit. But he wanted to quit way before he was able to.

I say fine, as I feel it's fine if a person wants to drink themselves into oblivion. So long as they're not directly effecting anyone else while doing so. As for quitting, I've quit a few habits myself (though not including alcohol which I don't really see as a problem). Even if you want to quit, you've got to want it enough.

No. Alcohol is associated and used in a LOT of incidents. Not ALL of them. It may be happy-happy lets all drink where you are, but it's much different here, and I'm pretty insulted by a lot of what you've said. Obviously you've never been a first hand victim of a drunk persons' anger.

Yeah... I've been in a few fights with drunks before Chez, especially when I used to hang out late most nights before my more recent 'internet addiction'. It's the people, they're so cool...

But yeah, most of them it wasn't just they were drunk. It's because I have a habit of being an overconfident smartass half the time. I did not need the.. how you say... street smarts? It wasn't just that they were drunk, they were either too proud to back off after shit talking me OR they knew me from previously and didn't like me.

If you don't want fights, don't provoke them or act like a smartass. If you gain their attention for the worst and can't defend yourself it's your own fault just as it's the drunk's fault for attacking you.

I say what I do as I'm on another side. The vast majority of alcohol users are completely fine. YES, there are some bad eggs, but there's bad eggs in pretty much every grouping of people. At least there's no intent to stab some random person and steal their wallet like with some kinds of people *cough* wannabe gangstas with low quality small yet long blades made in china they bought at some local market or fair. *cough*

I'm sorry if you feel I've insulted you, but frankly I hate feeling like I'm being lumped with knife weilding dipshits just because I drink large quantities of alcohol. Not all alcoholics are knife weilding troublemakers or psychos, hell many of us just sit at home with our mates drinking whatever the hell cheap red we could get for under $5 due to a couple weeks with low income. Alcohol does not a monster make, no, it just helps some thrive. Same as a ton of other things... Stress, road rage, whatever...

[Chez Daja]

I agree with everything Pablo and Helter said.

And I'm tired of fighting with people over alcohol. I had enough roll eye moments last night. I'm not saying alcohol is always the cause because that's far from the truth, but alcohol is a powerful drug and I'm tired of people saying otherwise. I'm tired of people sounding like denying alcoholics by justifying regular alcohol use.

There are some seriously paranoid people in the world that carry knives, whether they're under the influence or not. It may be for defense, or just "to look cool".

In any case, I don't think carrying weaponry of any kind or drinking excessively should EVER be justified. And nobody can make a logic point proving that much wrong.


And silver; just because you personally have never wanted to hurt somebody because you were drunk, doesn't mean you speak for everybody downing booze. There is such a thing as uncontrollable addiction and even if I do scratch my head in wonder about it, it IS something that some people cannot control. I'm not linking you to that, but I wanted to clear it up.

Maybe you can't see the damage binge drinking does from where you live. But here it is a powerful force. Coupled with the racism, historical contempt and bigotry that runs rampant over the UK, booze is a huge thing. I'm not talking a couple of pints down the pub with your mates. Last weekend, Glasgow was host to the Orange Marches; thousands of drunken Protestants marching around the streets, singing horrific songs about the Poles, pissing all over the streets, and starting fights. One stopped my brother in the city centre and asked if he was Polish, while he was with my mum; both replied no, at which point one of the march hangers-on grabbed my mum from behind and started leering, 'That's just as well then, eh!' before they spotted police around the corner and buggered off. Like **** would you catch someone doing that in the middle of Glasgow unless they were drunk.

Just because you're a relaxed, laid-back drunk doesn't mean that everyone else is the same. Many do get violent - and yes, they were probably fairly bad-tempered people to begin with, perhaps violent - but the booze (let's not forget its mystical ability to remove one's inhibitions and induce a concentrated version of whichever mood one is in) - the booze allows these extreme emotions and unpredictable actions to take place. It unlocks the door for people who would otherwise be able to control their anger for the most part when sober.

A-fucking-men.

Marry me, both of you, you wonderful duo.

[Martin]

I honestly cannot believe a remark that I added almost flippantly has stirred such vitriolic debate. But I stand by what I said. It's not necessarily the case that alcohol is the root of all evil. I never stated it was, I just made a simple statement which I hold true; that no matter what it does have an effect on the mind, lowers your inhibitions and (especially true in the UK as pointed by PH and Helter) happens to be a major factor of violent crime. This is fact.

I never said it was the only cause. I think that certain mind-altering substances also happen to play a part, as with gang culture and the like. But let's be brutally honest here, in the case of the UK, most reported knife-crime or stabbings take place outside of drinking establishments. Silver, you're quite right in defending the moderate drinkers out there, but please accept that those who cannot control their drinking, are usually the violent ones. It just happens that way.

The main problem here is that we're all discussing this from varying culture. So everyone... calm the hell down. It's not helping and is not exactly what this thread is about is it?

[Chez Daja]

If you don't want fights, don't provoke them or act like a smartass. If you gain their attention for the worst and can't defend yourself it's your own fault just as it's the drunk's fault for attacking you.

How can you say that? Some drunks just target you for no reason, whether you're talking or not, or acting like a smartass or not. I don't understand how you could be naive about that factor. Drunks do attack people. My father was attacked by four drunks (and no, he wasn't trouble and he wasn't an alcoholic by that time) for no reason except that just because they could. Little did they know that my dad used to fight a lot, and he beat the shit out of the four of them. He was lucky he could fight, or they might've mugged or killed him.

And when did anybody say you were a knife weilding dipshit or even imply you were like them?

Obviously we're from very different places, and I refuse to accept excessive alcoholism, as I also refuse to except "alcohol is fine". To be honest, you may know a thing or two about alcohol, but you'll never know the fear of young children who DON'T know how to fist fight. Consider yourself lucky.

Rest in peace, Ben.

I'm done with this stupid thread.

[Furore]

How can you say that? Some drunks just target you for no reason, whether you're talking or not, or acting like a smartass or not. I don't understand how you could be naive about that factor. Drunks do attack people.

I can say it quite easily. They always have a reason even if it's a damned stupid one. If a minority of them feel you're staring at them or something they might get aggressive, and sometimes they just want to mug you or something for some cash. Same can be said for people who aren't drunk though, and I know I'm much rather fight a guy drunk off his ass who can't even balance properly than a guy who can strike with complete accuracy.

And yes, I do understand there are exceptions to the rule, but once again it doesn't just apply to those who've drank a tad too much.

And when did anybody say you were a knife weilding dipshit or even imply you were like them?

I just stated that I hated feeling like I was getting lumped with those kinds of drunks. I seem to see indicators that crimes involving drunk people aren't consistent place to place which to me screams that alcohol is a side issue at best. When people are directly linking alcohol to crime it makes heavy drinkers (such as myself) look quite worse than we actually are. There's a minority who are the cause of people's troubles and I honestly feel alcohol is rarely if ever the true reason behind their actions. I mean seriously, it's almost always a minority of people in any given demographic who are the cause of some of society's troubles...

Obviously we're from very different places, and I refuse to accept excessive alcoholism, as I also refuse to except "alcohol is fine". To be honest, you may know a thing or two about alcohol, but you'll never know the fear of young children who DON'T know how to fist fight. Consider yourself lucky.

It's a life style choice to refuse alchol or excessive alcohol, but denying that alcohol is fine can be seen as something else entirely. It's been established that drinking certain quantities of red wine can be beneficial to one's health, and that the right amount of alcohol can be a powerful social tool due to the lowered inhibitions people show. And I know very well the fear of a child who can't fist fight. Until I taught myself how to fight through neccesity I was thrown around like a ****ing ragdoll more days than not. And I know I'm lucky Chez. It's through personal experience a person is shaped as they are. I don't think I'd have it any other way.

[OceanEyes28]

The antioxidants you get from wine are great, but you can get many more from eating dark chocolate or blueberries. I love the taste of a good red wine and I've been known to sip on other alcoholic beverages in social situations; but I don't pretend that it's healthy or that I'm a better person when I drink it.

I know for a fact that I'm not. I'm normally a pretty rational person and I prefer to talk things out and play nice. But with enough alcohol in me, I can turn from sweet to pissy in no time. Someone tickled me once after I'd had a few drinks, and I slapped him. I don't slap people on a regular basis, what the hell was that? I don't like using alcohol as an excuse for inappropriate behavior, but it is definitely a factor. It was my fault that I slapped him, but I would not have followed through with that behavior had I been sober.

Put alcohol in the hands of someone who would slap someone while sober, and you've got some pretty impulsive decisions ahead. I've been followed around, jeered at, and inappropriately touched by drunk ****s. I don't think they would have had the stones to do so had we all been in a grocery store or a library. Alcohol as a social tool: let loose your inner jackass.

[Furore]

Euphoria (BAC = 0.03 to 0.12%).
- Subject may experience an overall improvement in mood and possible euphoria.
- They may become more self-confident or daring; they may become more friendly or talkative, and/or social.
- Their attention span shortens. They may look flushed.
- Their judgment is not as good — they may express the first thought that comes to mind, rather than an appropriate comment for the given situation. --See: in vino veritas
- They have trouble with fine movements, such as writing or signing their name.

Lethargy (BAC = 0.09 to 0.25%)
- Subject may become sleepy.
- They have trouble understanding or remembering things, even recent events. They do not react to situations as quickly.
- Their body movements are uncoordinated; they begin to lose their balance easily, stumbling; walking is not stable.
- Their vision becomes blurry. They may have trouble sensing things (hearing, tasting, feeling, etc.).

Confusion (BAC = 0.18 to 0.30%)
- Profound confusion — uncertain where they are or what they are doing. --Dizziness and staggering occur.
- Heightened emotional state — aggressive, withdrawn, or overly affectionate. Vision, speech, and awareness are impaired.
- Poor coordination and pain response. Nausea and vomiting sometimes occurs.

Stupor (BAC = 0.25 to 0.40%)
- Movement severely impaired; lapses in and out of consciousness.
- Subjects can slip into a coma; will become completely unaware of surroundings, time passage, and actions.
- Risk of death is very high due to alcohol poisoning and/or pulmonary aspiration of vomit while unconscious.
- Loss of bodily functions can begin, including bladder control, breathing, heart rate.
Coma (BAC = 0.35 to 0.50%)
- Unconsciousness sets in.
- Reflexes are depressed (i.e., pupils do not respond appropriately to changes in light).
- Breathing is slower and more shallow. Heart rate drops. Death usually occurs at levels in this range.

Death (BAC more than 0.50%)
- Can cause central nervous system to fail, resulting in death.

- Short-term effects of alcohol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For BAC (Blood Alcohol Content) see here: Blood alcohol content - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Self confidence and daring and impaired judgement are the only things I can see suggesting in the slightest that a person might be caused to get violent by alcohol. But then look at the wording. 'Self Confidence' for one. As far as I'm aware that refers to one's confidence with themselves, so it's not really that alchol has put a magical mind controlling device on a person's head and forced them to do anything. Then we get to impaired judgement. This I presume is the real issue as that could be what makes some people do something they wouldn't normally do. HOWEVER the key word is 'impair'. It doesn't actually stop someone from being capable of making a good decision it merely makes it harder for them to do so. My way of thinking is merely that once they've made the choice to consume any alcohol they are directly accountable for any of their actions afterwards, as either way they had a choice. It helps if a person knows their limits...

Onto knowing one's limits. Despite the BAC guide, not everyone really conforms in terms of how alcohol effects them. I'll use myself as an example. I weigh approx 100KG which means 10 drinks will give me a BAP of .17. This in turn would mean that roughly 20-25 drinks should kill me. As there's 24 cans in a case and each can is 1.8 drinks making a total of 43.2 drinks I believe, drinking half a case could perhaps kill me yet I've been known to drink more than a case on occasion. Even subtracting approximately .01% every 40 minutes after drinking as the guide allows would show I have a good deal more than what should be lethal in my system. And I also remain more or less coherant as you can see through my typing ability. And then in contrast is a guy I know through a friend. He is slightly taller than me and likely weighs around the same as he's thinner, yet two beers will have him falling over himself something severe.

The antioxidants you get from wine are great, but you can get many more from eating dark chocolate or blueberries. I love the taste of a good red wine and I've been known to sip on other alcoholic beverages in social situations; but I don't pretend that it's healthy or that I'm a better person when I drink it.

Regularly having more than two drinks a day increases the risk of developing alcoholism, alcoholic liver disease, and some forms of cancer. Having between one to two alcoholic drinks a day has been shown to have positive effects on health, unless contraindicated,[1] chiefly because of its cardiovascular effects.

- Long-term effects of alcohol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Polyphenol antioxidants to be exact. And yes, dark chocolate's antioxidant effects are more powerful in one area, protecting against LDL oxidation, but apart from that are nothing remarkable. At least to the best of my knowledge. Chocolate is good for the circulatory system and has other documented effects such as being a brain stimulator, having anticancer properties, aiding with coughs and it has antidiarrhoeal effects. It's only drawbacks are that it can promote obesity and I've heard some chocolates can cause a buildup of lead in the system leading up to lead poisoning. Interesting that one.

Blueberries are interesting in that some varieties often contain more polyphenol antioxidants than others. It is said to possess qualities that can inhibit the progress of cancer cells, aid with Alzheimer's disease, help lower cholesterol and lipid levels and some varieties may contain contain anthocyanins, other antioxidants and several phytochemicals which are also strongly believed to have a positive effect in several ways. That said, depending on the nutrients available to the blueberry in question, some may lose some of these qualities to an extent or even altogether as with many plants. Some plants (not neccesarily the blueberry) are also known at times to be too rich in nutrients the body needs leading to negative effects if the nutrients stay in a person's system in too high a quantity. You could say that alcoholic drinks have varying levels of polyphenol antioxidants themselves, but they're often more consistent due to how they're processed.

I also wish to make the point that there are over 4000 distinct species of polyphenol antioxidant, all which do their own thing to combat oxidative stress - basically a causative of some neurodegenerative and cardiovascular diseases. It's very hard to have too many polyphenol antioxidants in your system...

As for it being increasing cancer risks, more things do that to some extent than not. Even staying out under the sun for too long. Oh and half the electrical devices in the average home may also be linked to cancer. And don't get me onto mutagens (like a wide variety of carcinogens just so ya knows)...

I know for a fact that I'm not. I'm normally a pretty rational person and I prefer to talk things out and play nice. But with enough alcohol in me, I can turn from sweet to pissy in no time. Someone tickled me once after I'd had a few drinks, and I slapped him. I don't slap people on a regular basis, what the hell was that? I don't like using alcohol as an excuse for inappropriate behavior, but it is definitely a factor. It was my fault that I slapped him, but I would not have followed through with that behavior had I been sober.

Which chances are does mean that alcohol had an effect on you. But did you lack the choice to not slap the guy or was it just impaired judgement on your part? As you've stated you don't like using alcohol as an excuse, an idea I agree with, and yes it can be a factor (though not a causative as I get the feeling some may perhaps think). Either way there was a choice to slap, despite any impairment caused by alcohol.

Put alcohol in the hands of someone who would slap someone while sober, and you've got some pretty impulsive decisions ahead.

Sounds like either way Sir. Slapalot's gonna do some slapping. To me the important difference would be that the person's impaired motor skills would mean some slaps might miss. There's also if they lack the balance they might not be able to get into such a position as being able to slap you.

I've been followed around, jeered at, and inappropriately touched by drunk ****s. I don't think they would have had the stones to do so had we all been in a grocery store or a library.

Fair call, and I do agree that's a problem. However I still see it as a far cry from stabbing someone which was the main point of this thread I believe. But while not exactly a small minority of drunks (there are a fair few like that), it's still not completely representative of the whole.

Alcohol as a social tool: let loose your inner jackass.

Not a fair call. It can also help you open up and be more honest with people. A line like that doesn't apply in all cases and is the type of slogan some seem to remember more than if one wasn't communicated across the table. I know a lot of people who are a good deal warmer and more welcoming with a six pack of toohey's new in their belly than they are with absolutely nothing.

[Rinoa.Heartilly]

I think the philosophy of taking the arms away from everybody is absolutely ridiculous. Taking the knives away from people isn't going to prevent any of these tragedies from happening. There will always be someone who chooses to carry a knife, no matter how nice it would be for no one to carry a knife. But, conversely to your theory of total disarming, if everybody carried a knife, no one would dare try to screw with anyone, because they all have knives. But we know that won't happen either.

You are also neglecting the fact knives have practical uses. I carry a knife for that very reason. I use it to cut boxes at work, open things, and a general all purpose tool. Just because I carry a knife doesn't mean I'm going to stab someone with it. But, my only exception, if someone with their bare hands decides they want to pull me off the street and try to rape me or physically assault me, you bet your ass I'll cut them.

It is horrible the things that happen to these kids and the old people. But taking away knives is ridiculous. More police presence and less apathy on the average citizen's part. Also, citizens should travel safer, in groups, or for the love of your God take time out of your day and watch your damn offspring when they play on the playground. More people=less likely for a crime to be committed.

[Unknown Entity]

I think the philosophy of taking the arms away from everybody is absolutely ridiculous. Taking the knives away from people isn't going to prevent any of these tragedies from happening. There will always be someone who chooses to carry a knife, no matter how nice it would be for no one to carry a knife. But, conversely to your theory of total disarming, if everybody carried a knife, no one would dare try to screw with anyone, because they all have knives. But we know that won't happen either.

You are also neglecting the fact knives have practical uses. I carry a knife for that very reason. I use it to cut boxes at work, open things, and a general all purpose tool. Just because I carry a knife doesn't mean I'm going to stab someone with it. But, my only exception, if someone with their bare hands decides they want to pull me off the street and try to rape me or physically assault me, you bet your ass I'll cut them.

It is horrible the things that happen to these kids and the old people. But taking away knives is ridiculous. More police presence and less apathy on the average citizen's part. Also, citizens should travel safer, in groups, or for the love of your God take time out of your day and watch your damn offspring when they play on the playground. More people=less likely for a crime to be committed.

Unfortunatly, there are some ****ers in the world who carry knives with intent to cause damage to others, purely because they look different, come from a different place, live in another postal code, or because they want to steal/mug someone. I'm not saying to ban the use of knifes if they are for some kind of useful use - whether that be for your work, or for genuinly protecting yourself - so that crime like this can... decrease a bit. You carry a knife because it has a use to you - work. Other people carry knives to do harm because they believe they are in danger if they don't.

Now, I probably didn't make a lot of sence then, but I you get what I mean...

[Rinoa.Heartilly]

Unfortunately, there are people like you said, use the knife for the intent to harm another individual. But the scum of the earth are the scum of the earth, but when I talked about carrying a knife, I was really using myself to represent the average citizen. I do believe that criminals having knives is an issue. But consider this: remember 9/11? The plane hijackings? If you are on a plane with the intent to hijack it now, you better count your stars and hope you aren't a bloody pulp by the time the plane lands where it's supposed to, because the air marshal won't be able to get passed the crowd of people kicking your ass. I believe the same concept should be put into effect with this. A group of people should be appalled at these stabbings and should do something instead of nothing. People should throw away the pretend sympathy and the heartless apathy, and actually try to make a difference. It shouldn't take a tragedy to bring public uproar. Watch your kids, travel in large groups, and if you see some asshole fighting for postal turf, get some balls and kick his ass. You TOO can carry a knife. Or call the police if you see suspicious activity, if you are incapable of physically stopping someone. It takes a whole population to fight against this sort of crime. Increased police presence helps as well.