Jesus never existed.

[Sasquatch]

Yea what was needed was either concrete historical evidence that there the bible does refer to SOMETHING written while Jesus was around, or at least something to the fact that the bible is an accurate collection of facts.

The Bible refers to many, many historical truths. Plagues, wars, fires, births, deaths, laws, etc. For one example -- contrary to what the topic starter believes -- there is historical evidence concerning the trial of Jesus and release of Barabbas by Pontius Pilate.

Do you want an example? "I believe that the bible is true because it says so in the bible. Also, the bible says Jesus Christ was born through an 'immaculate conception' and did stuff so it has to be true as well".

Actually, that wouldn't really be "circular reasoning". A more accurate, related example would be; "I know God created the earth. I know this because the earth is here, so only God could have created it." Your example really isn't "circular", just assuming topics from the same source to be true. Except believing the Bible to be true because it says so in the Bible -- and if that's what you were going for, I don't know why you would have added anything to it.

Thanks. You've admitted here that you're just doing it to cover your butt 'just in case'.

Actually, no. Ekimeinna never says anything remotely close to "doing it to cover [his/her] butt". You must have missed that "I believe with all of my heart..." part. The point was that others -- whoever was being addressed, in a specific or general sense -- have no reason not to believe, because if it isn't true, it won't matter either way. "Fire insurance", as it's commonly referred to as.

Anyway, I believe that if there is, god will be the bigger person and judge us by our actions and what we have bought to this world ...

You're obviously not getting your views of God from the Bible, because it mentions repeatedly that it's not what we do that controls our "afterlife" (eternal life after our earthly life), but if we are forgiven for our sins or not. If you don't believe it, you don't believe it -- don't try to mesh your beliefs of god with another religion's beliefs of its god, because you're comparing apples and oranges.

.. instead of being petty about how brainwashed we were while we were still in our formative years.

And again, the baseless claim that religious people are only religious because they were "brainwashed" while they were children. I'm sure it's the same way with politics too, right? Or is it only "brainwashing" for those that disagree with you? After all, if they disagree with you, they must not be smart enough to make up their own mind.

Isn't that what a just, but benevolent god would do? "You've done a lot to help the poor and deceased of this world. You've been a real asset to the people around you. But you've always spoken out about me. BAM! Hell for you" yeaa..... no.

Again, don't try comparing whatever god you believe in to the Christian god. You either don't understand the Biblical concept of salvation, or intentionally manipulate or ignore it. Let me explain again, and concisely. We all do things wrong (called "sins") -- all of us, even one little thing wrong -- and that's enough to keep us out of God's presence (remember, this is the Biblical God). Since we cannot keep from doing wrong things, we must be forgiven. Instead of paying for our sins (since there are only two places to live eternally, Heaven or Hell, and no sinners can enter God's presence in Heaven), Jesus paid for our sins, so that we didn't have to -- because we can't. So since we can't "earn" our way to Heaven (or, rather, out of Hell) by doing "good" things, we must be forgiven for the "bad" things we've done.

Consider people like cookies, and God wants us to be sugar cookies. Let's say God's allergic to chocolate -- can't eat it, can't touch it, can't even be around it. We all started out as sugar cookies, but throughout life, we get chocolatey, some more than others. You may be a sugar cookie with one chocolate sprinkle, or you may be an entire chocolate cake with chocolate chips and chocolate filling and chocolate icing and chocolate crust and chocolate milk on the side (did I miss some chocolate?), but either way, you're not a sugar cookie. Jesus was the only sugar cookie. And only Jesus can take all of the chocolate out of us and make us sugar cookies again, no matter how much we have, so God can ... eat us, I guess. C'mon, I'm trying to explain Christian spirituality and salvation with cookie analogies, gimme a break. Maybe cookies wasn't the best idea ... but it's understandable, right?

(But honestly, if anybody doesn't understand or has questions or just wants to learn more, PM me and I'd be happy to help.)

Besides, this whole premise of heaven and hell is simply to draw in people like it drew you in.

Right. Because all religious people are not only brainwashed, they're gullible cowards to be easily scared and tricked into believing.

Heck it's the same with my parents. 'There's no harm in believing right? What if it is all true? I'd better cover my bases anyway.'

While no true Christian (or believer of any religion, I'd imagine) condones the "fire insurance" following of their religion, at least it's a way to, hopefully, get the person to consider what the beliefs entail, learn about them, and possibly consider joining them. Followers of most beliefs and ideals, religious or not, use a similar tactic. Hell, look at the "Global Warming" nutjobs. Regardless of whether you believe it or not, Al Gore spouting that the earth is going to melt and burn today and flood and freeze tomorrow gets you thinking. I assume Al Gore is lying whenever he opens his mouth because of the Law of Averages (if he's usually lying, he's probably lying now), but his presentations have made even me look into the topic. Whichever path I chose to follow, at least Al Gore and others who think alike have brought the issue to the table, made a serious confrontation about it, and gotten people to consider the issue. While movies like "An Inconvenient Truth" (which was very inconvenient, and nowhere near truth) and "Day After Tomorrow" present extremes that are unrealistic and only push people away from the issue, they do the same thing that "soapbox preachers" and the typical ignorant "OMG ur goin 2 heck!" kids do. The difficult part is sorting out which present a serious issue in a pathetic manner, and which just present a pathetic issue.

The difference is that "scientists" and lobbyists like Al Gore support issues like "Global Warming" (is that different from the Global Cooling scare 30 years ago, or do they just call it Global Climate Change now?) for their personal financial and political gain, while most Christians have nothing to gain from spreading their beliefs.

Thank god not everyone thought like you eh. Otherwise, we'd well and truly be stuck in the mechanical age. This computer and internet connection I'm speaking to you with, would not have been possible, if people didn't question things. Hell actually you know what? I'm gonna go as far and say that had the world been filled with the same mindset, we would still think the Earth is flat.

Wow. Because we all know that no Christian -- or member of any religion, really, but mainly those eeeevil Christians -- ever questioned his or her beliefs, right? No Christian ever studied the Bible for accuracy or looked to outside sources, right? No Christian ever was challenged by an external -- or even internal -- issue and came back to their beliefs -- all Christians have been "brainwashed" since birth, and all Christians who have been presented with something contradicting their beliefs (say, Evolutionism) have either converted, rebuked their faith, or stuck their fingers in their ears and yelled "lalalalalalala", right?

Anyway. A much simpler reply to the topic at hand. Yes, Jesus existed. It's fairly well documented. The faith issue is in regard to whether or not Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah, who rose from the dead to save mankind, or just some fruitcake who started a cult, incited violence and rebellion, and eventually was punished by death.