Should Pro Gamers be considered Athletes?

[Mystyrion]

Should pro gamers be considered athletes? - CNN.com

I'm wondering what this community thoughts on this are.

As far as a technical standpoint goes, Athletic and Sports are associated with words like Strength, Stamina, Endurance.

None of which gaming features (unless you get into Dance Dance Revolution or In the Groove, the latter of which to be considered "pro" takes a lot of endurance).
But, why is that? Why is it that mental capacity is not taken into account for the Olympics? Surely we have gotten past the age of gamers being labeled losers and nerds.

The only thing I see as being a viable reason is that gaming does require the skill gap that Sports do. To be a top in any sport you must train your body almost everyday, watch the things you eat, etc.
While gaming on the other hand requires just to sit and be a good strategist (Starcraft II) or Hand eye coordination and working well with teammates (any First Person Shooter).

Another possible reason is that Gaming is always continually changing. Starcraft II, Halo Reach, whatever is in the MLG Pro Circuit. You know without a doubt its going to change. Where as most (if not all) of the events have been in the Olympics for a very long time.

I'm using the Olympics because the article directly deals with Gaming and the Olympics. But in a general sense, do you think gamers should be labeled as Athletes?
Or do you think the separation is a good thing. That Athlete is more of a physical thing and gaming is more brain power. Not saying that Athletes don't use brain power or that it doesn't require some form of thought. But I'd be willing to say the skill gap in certain areas (Chess maybe?) could be much higher than any sport.

Also where do you draw the line? I've told you about a game that requires strength, stamina, and endurance (In the Groove). What about Poker? Do you consider that a sport? Racing?

[Rowan]

Absolutley not. Athlete implies physical ability. Theres nothing remarkable about gaming let alone gamers. On the other hand, theres something remakable about being the fastest runner in the world, or the best swimmer. The person who can throw a javelin the farthest. Noone could care less about your high score in pinball or that you won final fantasy 7 without using a memory card. Thats about it.

[Mystyrion]

Absolutley not. Athlete implies physical ability. Theres nothing remarkable about gaming let anone gamers. On the other hand, theres something remakable about being the fastest runner in the world, or the best swimmer. The person who can throw a javelin the farthest. Noone could care less about your high score in pinball or that you won final fantasy 7 without using a memory card. Thats about it.

Okay, but like I said,
In the Groove and Dance Dance Revolution require physical ability.

The point of the Sports/Olympics is to be competitive/be the best and thats pretty much the point of Major League Gaming.

While you may think its not remarkable to be the best at any given game, there are people out there that do. MLG rakes in millions (For Example: $35 Mill from Halo in 2006) of dollars from people watching/Playing.

[Rowan]

Yes but the question is should pro gamers be considered Athletes.



Assume he's pro at something other than being obese.


I think you're trying to say that gaming takes as much skill and effort as anything else, but theres many other activities that could also be put under that catagory. Such as sewing, cooking, building things etc. Now you mention specifically dance dance revolution to be an olympic sport... I think the reason its not is that because there are far too many people in this world who can get perfect scores, every single time they play on the hardest difficulty. It just wouldn't work from a scoring side of things. There can only be one winner in all olympic events and those are the people who either completed what the do the fastest (that includes winning a game in sport) or throw the farthest.

[Mystyrion]

Yes but the question is should pro gamers be considered Athletes.



Assume he's pro at something other than being obese.

Like I said from a technical standpoint, the answer is no.

I think you're trying to say that gaming takes as much skill and effort as anything else, but theres many other activities that could also be put under that catagory. Such as sewing, cooking, building things etc.

I'm leaving the possibility out there. I personally think that a game like Starcraft requires an ungodly amount of skill to be good at. It might not take as much work or dedication as some of these Olympics or Professional athletes have put into their respective field, but its still not something anyone can pick up and be good at.
Sewing, cooking, building things isn't exactly competitive. Well maybe cooking (Iron Chef).

Now you mention specifically dance dance revolution to be an olympic sport... I think the reason its not is that because there are far too many people in this world who can get perfect scores, every single time they play on the hardest difficulty. It just wouldn't work from a scoring side of things. There can only be one winner in most olympic events and those are the people who either completed what the do the fastest (that includes winning a game in sport) or throw the farthest.

There are still songs that no one has Quad Starred and got a perfect score on both games. Probably going a little to in depth for you, but the judge rating is only placed at a 4 for official tournaments. The game becomes much much harder if you change it. Also thats if you stick to the official songs, the largest tournament (fort rapids) the songlist is almost all custom songs that are agreed upon a committee that the quality, syncing, etc of the song meets the standards. These songs are also much much harder than the official (or original) songlist.

[Martin]

Games like DDR aren't really athletic though. I mean they require physical effort, but then so does Wii Fit.. I really find the idea of gaming being compared somewhat laughable.

Pro gamers are simply that, professional and I think if they were asked themselves they'd probably say the same. Not to say it's not an interesting discussion though, I'm looking forward to some of the responses to this

[Rhaps]

Competitive StarCraft tournaments in Korea.
/thread

In all sincerity, I do think pro-gamers should be considered athletes when certain games come into question. StarCraft for it's real time strategy multiplayer requires both a deep strategic mind, and the attention span to keep plotting over hours of gameplay. When physique comes into question, the DDR games you mentioned definitely applied.

Also, Speed Runs are amazing. The amount of skill and dexterity that goes into pulling them off are mind blowing, and if anything exceed the rates of an Olympic athlete.

[Martin]

But dexterity and skill is not athletic in nature is it? I mean.. anyone with enough time and patience can practice and move their fingers in such a way it becomes ingrained into muscle memory - but not everyone can throw a discus 60 metres regardless of how much they train because that's just natural talent and technique. I think claiming that speed runs go beyond the level of an Olympic athlete is a little misleading ..

[Mystyrion]

But dexterity and skill is not athletic in nature is it? I mean.. anyone with enough time and patience can practice and move their fingers in such a way it becomes ingrained into muscle memory - but not everyone can throw a discus 60 metres regardless of how much they train because that's just natural talent and technique. I think claiming that speed runs go beyond the level of an Olympic athlete is a little misleading ..

Moving fingers is only half the battle in Starcraft, how you fight you're opponent is an entire other category.

I agree to the second part. You're right not everyone can be that person at discus or any sport for that matter. But, neither can anyone be that amazing at gaming. Some people have a natural talent for it and others wont ever be able to pick up the controller and be as good as Mad Matt in ITG or Pistola in Halo Reach.

While the number is increased a lot, still not everyone can do it.

Games like DDR aren't really athletic though. I mean they require physical effort, but then so does Wii Fit.. I really find the idea of gaming being compared somewhat laughable.

Pro gamers are simply that, professional and I think if they were asked themselves they'd probably say the same. Not to say it's not an interesting discussion though, I'm looking forward to some of the responses to this

A little late but, yes. I believe professional gamers would say the same thing.
As to the Wii Fit and DDR. No Wii game has the physicality of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNtGqHrPysQ

[Rowan]

Noone is denying that it takes a strategic mind and effort to become excellent in a game , whether it be starcraft, C&C, warcraft etc. I just dont agree that they should be recognized as athletes. Theres nothing athletic about it. Should they be competing in Olympic games? Only athletes compete in olympic games. If this is your train of thought, you must want chess as an olympic sport. To say that chess is a sport is to say that using your brain is enough physical exertion to justify the title of athletic endeavor. by drawing such conclusions, what wouldn't be sport?

[Mystyrion]

Noone is denying that it takes a strategic mind and effort to become excellent in a game , whether it be starcraft, C&C, warcraft etc. I just dont agree that they should be recognized as athletes. Theres nothing athletic about it. Should they be competing in Olympic games? Only athletes compete in olympic games. If this is your train of thought, you must want chess as an olympic sport. To say that chess is a sport is to say that using your brain is enough physical exertion to justify the title of athletic endeavor. by drawing such conclusions, what wouldn't be sport?

Okay, so we came to the conclusion that you believe the separation of the titles is a good thing.

Say we don't separate the title of athlete and professional gamer.
Why couldn't we include Gaming as an event into the Olympics, even with the separation. Nothing states that only Athletes compete in the Olympics, its just always been that way.

If a large enough community was pushing for the addition of lets say Starcraft II, why couldn't it be included?

We don't have to draw the conclusion that anything could be a sport. Like I said Sewing isn't exactly competitive. So no large enough community would be willing to push for it as an Olympics event. Nor would I even know how to judge something like that. Same goes for cooking. Not everyone has the same taste for things. How could you possibly judge something built on opinions.

But again, that's just tactics too and I'm not sure if you can claim that as worthy of a professional athlete. Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't think that athletes and gaming are really that comparable - the nature of the rewards gained, and the dedication required to maintain your shape and physicality is much more difficult than firing up an Xbox and playing CoD for a few hours.

I agree, there are some sports out there though that don't require as much physicality as others though. Bobsledding for example features running and leaning. I'm sure its a little more complicated than that, but that isn't exactly something that you'd have to spend your life doing like Basketball or Gymnastics.

Also the average professional gamer puts 6-10 hours into their game a day.

But I'm off to bed, I'll be back tomorrow!

[Martin]

I agree, there are some sports out there though that don't require as much physicality as others though. Bobsledding for example features running and leaning. I'm sure its a little more complicated than that, but that isn't exactly something that you'd have to spend your life doing like Basketball or Gymnastics.

Also the average professional gamer puts 6-10 hours into their game a day.

But I'm off to bed, I'll be back tomorrow!

Then a very good night to you sir

In regards to your point, the sports that require less in the means of physical prowess (and I'd argue that bob-sledding does require a lot of strength, in your back two runners for sprinting with the sled, and your driver to turn the sled and find the right lines with four peoples' weight and on ice) those that don't are inherently more technical - which requires the same lengths of time to master.

This might be slightly off-topic but I think the Olympics are also about celebrating sports that wouldn't normally receive good media attention and corporate sponsorship, another reason why basketball and tennis for example shouldn't be there.

[Martin]

But again, that's just tactics too and I'm not sure if you can claim that as worthy of a professional athlete. Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't think that athletes and gaming are really that comparable - the nature of the rewards gained, and the dedication required to maintain your shape and physicality is much more difficult than firing up an Xbox and playing CoD for a few hours.

Personal opinion: Gaming to me will always be to me, whether amateur or professional an entertainment industry. I would have a lot less respect for someone picking up a $250k winners cheque for being the best player at a Street Fighter tournament, than someone who picked up a Gold medal and $2,500 for running 400m in 44.5 seconds.

[Alpha]

Video games should be included when board games are.

Which is never. Running will always be running. Sure, you can add nutrition and fancy shoes and a new running surface, but the basic mechanic of running will never change.

This is important. It allows us to benchmark physical human feats. We're running faster, jumping higher and throwing further than ever before in human history. That is amazing. And people will continue to be throwing, running and jumping for as long as our species persists. People will not always be playing Starcraft, as talented as some players may be.

Plus you're also neglecting that video games are really the domain of the world's wealthiest societies. It wouldn't be a global feat in the spirit of most Olympic events.

[nix]

It is in no way physically demanding, but id consider it a sport.

Sure chess is in the olympics ffs, if thats in it, gaming should be also, and not the DDR or fifa or any of those pieces of shit.

I'm talking counter strike, star craft, car games, basically fps strategy and car games, ones that require skill and good hand eye coordination. Unlike say fifa which is dependent on what team you pick to give you a big advantage, same can be said about car games i guess.. So the only ones really that require you to use your brain and be top of your game in regards to hand eye coordination is FPS and strategy.

So i believe if chess is in the olympics, gaming should be too. But only those genres and only games that are designed to cater for skill. So fps games that would show would be counter strike, quake etc, games that wouldnt would be Battlefield, COD etc

Those games are not designed for competitive play, they are designed to make noobs think they are the shit.

And also has been mentioned i think would be that gaming is always changing. True but only in the name of greed and not all games. Ones i mentioned, Counter strike, quake etc. When these games are released they will not see a sequel for many many years, over 10 at the very least. So thats a good thing..

The games which aren't fit for competitive play on a global scale like that would be those games ive already said should be excluded, the cash cow games, the games to amuse the easily amused masses, fifa, cod, BF, insert generic car game name.. All get a sequel each year, do they need one? no, is there gonna be any major differences between the games? nope, heck they may even get worse. So yeah, keep on buying and keep thinking your skilled

Anyway, so yeah, if games like chess get in the olympics, gaming should too.

[Lacquer Head]

As long as you eat cheetos and drink mountain dew, you will never be an Olympian >_>

But seriously, it takes no PHYSICAL effort, other than finger movements. But in that sense, musicians should be in before gamers. A mental version of the Olympics would be quite nice though...although gaming still wouldn't deserve to be there lol

[Pete]

Definitely not. Athletics is practically the farthest thing away from gaming on the grand spectrum of doing stuff. Sure, you can train and work at aspects of a game, but it's not the same because it's not a physical talent. It's much more of a sensory reaction, in which case, there's only so much you can do.

Some people are born with the ability to throw a football 70 yards and hit a small target, some people are wizards with the controller. It's a talent and an ability, but it's in no way a mark of athleticism.

Now, if you were able to run a 5K on the treadmill while maintaining some kind of fps ability, that might be a sign of heightened athleticism, but gaming, at least with any competitive games, is much more about being adaptable and having some skill.

Games like SC and CS are brought up, but that still doesn't mark an athlete. Both games are so old and have been popular for as long as they have been, because they're good games with a high replay value and a lot of strategy that can be implemented. It makes you highly adaptable and a good strategist to be able to sit down and be dominant. I could have a gatorade bottle and a piss jug and play SC all day, but that doesn't make me an athlete, just because I'm demonstrating "endurance".

I'll even go and lay it all out there. I wouldn't even consider myself an athlete, even though I play a number of sports and work out a few times a week. Bigger question is the difference between athletes and athleticism.

[nix]

I agree with you, on the physical aspect of things, heck, ya may aswell throw in sleeping. By definition gamers are not athletes, athletes is the wrong word.

But id consider it a competitive sport and hope that in a decade or two, the competitive aspect of gaming gets alot bigger and better. Sadly its looking unlikely with the rate at which games are being reproduced these days.

[Unknown Entity]

You'd have to define pro gamer, but no matter what definition you give, it'll still be ridiculous. I could never view gaming as a sport. I don't think it'll make a good Olympic sport. I think the Ancient Greeks would roll in their graves it was considered sport, rather than competition.

What it seems you're thinking off is strategy, and being strategic in games being a form of athleticism. Again, it's a no from me, but it is competitive. Which could be what you mean. If that's the case, then well yes, it is. And there are competitions around the world where people can sit in and play games together for a prize. A regular customer at the store I work in went to a MW3 or Battlefield 3 one in Switzerland earlier this year.

It would probably be a cool idea for a game tournament for everyone in the world to join in. You'd have problems with game content in some countries, serious age restrictions, and about a million rules. It's not that fun.

[Anthiena]

I think the wrong question is being asked. Video games aren't really comparative to many sports while exhibiting many things in common. Though playing a football game from your couch isn't what playing football is, it is at once more approachable and vastly different from what playing football actually is.

If we ask the question "Can video games be competitive? Can games have an upper crust of gamer elite who use its inherent rules and nature to excel in a way an ordinary gamer could?" The answer to that is yes. Professional gamers have long existed, since the 90's at least. This is not even counting the testers!

To bring the original question back into focus, the Pythian games had a section where people would compete in playing a lute and singing. That was an "olympian" event.

Video games are being seen as more and more legitimate and this question was inevitable, however, it is misleading. No one is benefited by football per se. In fact, it could be argued that it costs more in terms of money, productivity and human health than video games but you try to tell the leagues that.

Moving off my example of football, not all video games are made equally in terms of being competitive, let alone quality and other quantifying factors. It would be a little hard to go head to head on Tomb Raider, though in some instances, maybe they can. In a recent PC Gamer, they did a feature on two men climbing to a million points on X-Box Live and how they were doing it. Tournaments are not only growing in terms of attendance, participants and other usual measures but also money. There have become more people willing to sponsor these guys.

Professional gamers have long been a thing. They won't be considered athletes but they will be considered their own things, objects of worship and envy along with a twist of "what the ****, these guys are being paid to do what?" With how ubiquitous gaming has become, this isn't surprising. The only surprising thing will be how long it took.

[Mystyrion]

Necro bump. Thought this was interesting and relevant to the topic.

Competitive gaming recognized in United States as a professional sport

[Odin1199]

Is shooting considered a sport? Yes, because you need good aim, coordination, posture, breathing, concentration, etc. You don't need to have super awesome physical abilities like in slalom, boxing, hockey, etc, but only a few very trained skills. Do you need good hand - eye coordination to play games? Yes. Do you need aim and dexterity? Yes. It should be considered a sport because it requires you to have highly trained certain skills, even if they're not as outstanding and noticable as in more physical sports. That's just my opinion. Also if US recognizes this as a professional sport, this goes to say something, doesn't it?

[loaf]

I have yet to see really any Major Obese Pro Gamers.

[Rocky]

thats because most organizations involved in esports use the better looking players as their posterboys so they get more positive exposure to the public and their sponsors.

[Odin1199]

Fat gamers sweat too much and their hands become too greasy to play well. Bad for dexterity.

[Rowan]

I still stick with my first post but something new comes to mind as I look back. I think the biggest reason that gamers should not be considered athletes is because of the lack of intense training involved when compared with sports. It takes considerably far less effort to play a video game than it does to train your body to become stronger and faster than someone elses. In fact, I would go as far as saying its an absolute insult to those that train their whole lives to be recognized as a professional athlete.

I do however, have respect for good teamwork in games such as dota; with all its complexities. Its like watching an orchestra of communication, timing and execution. Although, the people involved are not worthy of being recognized as athletes.

[loaf]

Get pro at Smash Bros Melee or Project Melee (Brawl mod). Until you're actually trying to do all of that, at that high of playing level. It takes years to get that good.

You have to make 3+ button command at an instant like they are all 1 button but you are pressing them all separately. Doing that every other second? That takes just as much time and discipline and time as a team of dota does to get good.

It depends on the game I feel.

[Rowan]

Get pro at Smash Bros Melee or Project Melee (Brawl mod). Until you're actually trying to do all of that, at that high of playing level. It takes years to get that good.

You have to make 3+ button command at an instant like they are all 1 button but you are pressing them all separately. Doing that every other second? That takes just as much time and discipline and time as a team of dota does to get good.

It depends on the game I feel.

agreed. but neither smash or dota players should be considered athletes.

[Pikachu]

Of course not. Completely ridiculous to suggest such a thing. There needs to be some form of athletic ability in it for me to even consider it being a sport. Things like stockcar racing really edges the line as to what counts and doesn't count as a sport. Chess and poker, while fun, aren't sports. I don't consider pressing buttons athletic. Might as well make Whack-a-Mole a sport while you're at it.