DISCUSSION: Forum Consolidation

[LocoColt04]

I've been pondering it for a while... and in the past two weeks I can count four times it's been brought up by different people, so I am considering proposal of some different ideals based on the activity of specific forums and how things could potentially be laid out to streamline our front page.

I know it has been said in the past that creating more subforums is always the wrong way to go about it, so I would like to propose a rough layout of what I'd like to see personally, and would LOVE for all of you to give your input. This will not be a poll; rather, I would like everyone who wishes to have their words considered step in and comment on either the proposed design or changes s/he would like to see.

That said, my proposal is below. Using existing category headers, this is my idea:


TFF Lobby
• Forum Announcements
• Forum Suggestions/Feedback, Bug Reports, Tech Support
Basically, merge "How Do I?" with the forum above it; both are set up as answer forums and can honestly share the same space.
• Member Business (comings and goings)
Can we rename this into something that still explains what it is but makes a little more sense? 'kay.

Game Room
• General Final Fantasy
• Final Fantasy I, II, & III
Change forum description to note that remakes on other consoles are discussed here as well; ditto for all relevant instances below.
• Final Fantasy IV, V, & VI
• Final Fantasy VII & Spinoffs
• Final Fantasy VIII & IX
• Final Fantasy X, X-2, XII
• Final Fantasy XIII Series
• Final Fantasy Tactics Series
• Final Fantasy Online: XI, XIV
• General Gaming
And then modify the description to note that it's for all non-FF titles, which is clearer than the "blah blah all other great games" business.

Member Lounge
• General Chat
• Intellectual Discussion
Since the majority rule on this is so much in favor of keeping the forum as it is... maybe a name change of sorts to better describe it? Maybe Topical Debates or something?
• Visual Media
Encompasses visual mediums of art, movies, television, anime, etc. These sections are all large but with a LOT of old, dead topics that could be removed.
• Audio Media
Encompasses music, but has a large place due to videogame remixes. Encourage users to link to their own work rather than discourage advertising.
• Written Media
Basically the Literature forum goes here, but with more emphasis on users showcasing their own works, much like the Audio section above.
• Clubs
• Journals
Just a simple move, nothing about it actually would change.

Spotlight Theatre
is fine as it is, unless anyone else has input on changing it. It's split up into a handful of categories, but that kind of stuff really needs to be divided the way it is, even if it isn't terribly active these days. This is also part of why it's on the bottom instead of showcased up top - it does not get in the way of the focal points of TFF.






Removals, and where they could be dissolved:
• Gaming Media: spread topics into new Visual Media and Audio Media forums.
• FFVII subforum: blow it all back into FFVII as a whole.
• FFX-2 subforum: blow it all back into FFX as a whole.
• Kingdom Hearts subforum: blow it all back into General Gaming as a whole.
• The entire Auditorium category:
--- Literature into Written Media
--- Art into Visual Media
--- Digital Community threads spread between Media and Gaming forums where applicable; other threads merged into General Chat



Also, the Reviews category and its single forum of Writer's Corner? Let's hide that shit until we have enough activity that it can actually be relevant again. In the meantime, we can encourage members to post their own reviews in whatever game forum would be relevant to their topic. It would also help push activity back where it belongs rather than divide it into useless areas.

Same with Chocobo Digest. Let's get it off the index, hidden but not deleted until it serves a purpose again - IF it ever serves a purpose again.

Office/Network/Archives need no alterations.

[SOLDIER #819]

I agree with the Forums Suggestion/How Do I merge, Visual Media merge, and the dissolution of the Digital Community forum and Auditorium category. I also like hiding Chocobo Digest and having a Review subforum for the various gaming forums (whatever they may turn out to be).

I would merge the forums:

All FFs that aren't new and all their included subforums --> General FF
Most have maybe one or two posts from this month in them. It's better to have one active forum.

Gaming Media --> General Gaming

Literature & Art --> Art
There's no reason to separate the two mediums. They're both the critiquing of a form of media, but neither is very active on its own.

Intellectual Discussion --> General Chat

The RP forum setup is Andromeda's thing, so there's not very much to say if he hasn't had a change of heart. It's a philosophical thing.

[LocoColt04]

Eh, I think there are enough people doing their own writings that the "Written Media" category can still stand separate from the "Visual Media" category - but I don't disagree with your base sentiment.

What of consolidating the FF I-VI all together? It seems a little overkill to me, but that's why this is a discussion. Then maybe also VIII-XII, keeping VII, Online, and Tactics stuff separated? And XIII since it's the new deal? I still prefer the thought of a broad-spectrum FF discussion forum. Like... this below instead?



Game Room
• General Final Fantasy
• First & Second Generation: Final Fantasy I-VI
• Final Fantasy VII & Spinoffs
• Third & Fourth Generation: Final Fantasy VIII-XII
• Final Fantasy XIII & Spinoffs
• Final Fantasy Tactics Series
• Final Fantasy Online: XI & XIV
• General Gaming

And then the forum descriptions for all of them can be more explicit regarding what is discussed in each group?


There's already a topic regarding Intellectual Discussion and the OVERWHELMING majority opinion is to keep it, so that merger won't be happening.

[SOLDIER #819]

I'm just going by what the activity levels are. Literature has had 6 threads posted in within a little over a month's time. Art is in about the same shape. If you put them together you have a semi-active forum for user-created media. Your way is just as valid, but having Cloud fanart side-by-side with a discussion about Avengers seems weird to me.

I would agree with you on the FF forums if we hadn't tried something similar before with sub forums. If you remember, it ended up being really weird... it felt arbitrary and made things confusing. The only difference is that now we have even less activity.

ID was just me being hopeful. Seriously, no matter what people think, more moderation isn't going to change that it's just a forum for a handful of people. :\ The "majority" of those who voted don't even post there. There sure as hell aren't 16 ID regulars. It's just robbing GC of topics that should be getting more input than they are right now.

[Martin]

ID was just me being hopeful. Seriously, no matter what people think, more moderation isn't going to change that it's just a forum for a handful of people. :\ The "majority" of those who voted don't even post in ID. There sure as hell aren't 16 people who post in ID. It's just robbing GC of topics that should be getting more input than they are right now.

I don't know, I think the people in there aren't too abrasive or belligerent to the extent it puts people off posting in there - I think it's the lack of different topics which is what I wanted to address to begin with. That is what I'm getting at - if we jigged things around, made it a slightly less intimidating atmosphere (I don't see that myself but if that's how it comes across I understand) and at least made it friendlier then you'd have 16 people posting in there. You'd have more. There's a lot of intelligent people on this website that don't post in there and I think it's more because of a lack of variety than the people who post in there. I certainly hope I come across friendly enough.

I like your original idea Cesar. Doesn't compress the forum too much but not as much sub-division as there is now. I'd go with that.

[LocoColt04]

@SOLDIER:
I definitely remember the subforums, and I remember you and Merlin both explaining to me why it sucked. We don't want to tuck things away from the index in subforums - so large forums containing multiple subjects is a pleasant alternative. We're definitely on the same page there. I'm curious to see how many agree with your level of consolidation - all FF titles that aren't FFVII or FFXIII into one forum seems like crazy talk to me but it could work. Again, that's why topics like this can only work if others share their opinions.


edit:
Also, S, are you suggesting that we do a "General Media" and a "Member-Created Media" forum split instead? This is also worth looking at.

[Martin]

@SOLDIER:
I definitely remember the subforums, and I remember you and Merlin both explaining to me why it sucked. We don't want to tuck things away from the index in subforums - so large forums containing multiple subjects is a pleasant alternative. We're definitely on the same page there. I'm curious to see how many agree with your level of consolidation - all FF titles that aren't FFVII or FFXIII into one forum seems like crazy talk to me but it could work. Again, that's why topics like this can only work if others share their opinions.

Just one thing - I know I said I liked the layout but I want to revise that - having VII and XIII in their own forums seems.. I don't know. I'm not crazy over that. It would seem a bit preferential and whilst I know it's because they have more gaming material I still think you could chuck them in with other titles. Could do it by console as well as generation. I-VI - VII-VIII-IX - X-X-2-XII - XI-XIV - XIII-XIII-2 perhaps? Probably won't be that popular amongst you guys but it's just an idea.

[LocoColt04]

Seven and its spinoffs will ALWAYS generate enough separate activity to be featured. And, awkward as it looks, thirteen needs its own place because it is the most current title. Back in the olden times when we had similar consolidation, the most recent game always held its own forum until the following one came along.

[Martin]

Seven and its spinoffs will ALWAYS generate enough separate activity to be featured. And, awkward as it looks, thirteen needs its own place because it is the most current title. Back in the olden times when we had similar consolidation, the most recent game always held its own forum until the following one came along.

I know that and I can accept it for XIII. But that at least has some scope for expansion because of the newer titles coming out in that series (should Versus ever actually make it) but does VII really generate that much traffic here? The first page of threads has replies from the start of April. Nine weeks ago. I'm not disputing that it's likely to be more popular than others on here but it'll go the way of the rest of the FF's eventually. There's nothing new coming to it. It'll be the same discussions over and over.

[SOLDIER #819]

Martin: If this were 1 year ago (or the year before that), I'd be willing to agree...but it's not going to happen. We've talked about adding a large variety of threads and, like with almost every other initiative TFF has had, it was forgotten. We're just going in circles: offering the same solutions and never really changing anything because it's more comfortable not to.

You can't force "niceness"--as you said, people there are already pretty nice. It's just volatile subject matter + the regulars of ID knowing each other pretty well = a pretty harsh environment. They may not be best friends, but they're comfortable enough to debate the way they do. Nothing wrong with that.

They can debate like that anywhere, though. Sasquatch and Order aren't going to stop mass-quoting just because it's GC. But people outside that circle have and will continue to not post in ID topics when they feel intimidated, because they're "not smart enough for ID" or because "ID is too abrasive". Take ID out of the equation completely and that stigma will have to disappear to some extent.

TFF isn't a country and this isn't voting congress. We can always just change it back if it doesn't work out... haha. Yet people aren't really willing to test new things out. I'm just ranting, but crap, it's ridiculous how little we experiment around here.

[LocoColt04]

@Martin:

Trust me, I am NOT opposed to making it I-VI, then VII-XII (keeping Online, Tactics, XIII separate still). We're probably on the same page, but keep in mind that the demo at the very top was just a first draft. I expect this conversation (and thus, the "official" work in progress) to evolve a few times before this thread has run its course.

You also have to look at activity as a meter against forum activity as a whole. Just because it has page-one threads dating back nine weeks doesn't mean it needs to be dissolved into a bigger category; there are sections with page-one threads dating back more than a year. What we really need is more activity at TFF! Heh. I truly do think consolidation (as well as a little more Facebook advertising on my part; taking the reigns of the TFF page and putting viable effort into paying for advertising and such) will help boost some activity. The less intimidating a forum appears, the more likely someone will stick around.

[Martin]

Martin: If this were 1 year ago (or the year before that), I'd be willing to agree...but it's not going to happen. We've talked about adding a large variety of threads and, like with almost every other initiative TFF has had, it was forgotten. We're just going in circles, offering the same solutions, and never really changing anything because it's comfortable.

You can't force "niceness"--as you said, people there are already pretty nice. It's just volatile subject matter + the regulars of ID knowing each other pretty well = a pretty harsh environment. They may not be best friends, but they're comfortable enough to debate the way they do. Nothing wrong with that.

They can debate like that anywhere, though. Sasquatch and Order aren't going to stop mass-quoting just because it's GC. But people outside that circle have and will continue to not post in ID topics when they feel intimidated, because they're "not smart enough for ID" or because "ID is too abrasive". Take ID out of the equation completely and that stigma will have to disappear to some extent.

I just don't want it to become a place where people aren't free to give their own opinions. It shouldn't have to be a sheltered away part of the forums, simply there for the amusement and frustration of a few members. Perhaps a name change will help. Only time will tell with that. But I'll always post in there because it engages me, challenges me to think and it's a good way to unwind. I like the disagreements. I like the arguments. I like that I learn from there. Perhaps the cloud of intellectual superiority will disappear once these changes are put in place. I sincerely hope so.

[SOLDIER #819]

Also, S, are you suggesting that we do a "General Media" and a "Member-Created Media" forum split instead? This is also worth looking at.

Elaborate, haha. We may not be on the same page.

I just don't want it to become a place where people aren't free to give their own opinions. It shouldn't have to be a sheltered away part of the forums, simply there for the amusement and frustration of a few members. Perhaps a name change will help. Only time will tell with that. But I'll always post in there because it engages me, challenges me to think and it's a good way to unwind. I like the disagreements. I like the arguments. I like that I learn from there. Perhaps the cloud of intellectual superiority will disappear once these changes are put in place. I sincerely hope so.

There won't be any lasting changes, man. No mods nor members have made any long-term commitments, nor should they have to. Engaging topics can be had in GC. ID isn't special. It's very easy to have a nice, deep discussion outside of it. Keeping ID up is effectively barring the majority of TFFers from posting on a wide variety of topics since they're all moved to and kept in ID, where most find it uncomfortable to post in, or just can't be bothered to check.

[LocoColt04]

Elaborate, haha. We may not be on the same page.

What I interpret from your comments and how I apply that to my idea is this:

You don't like Visual/Audio/Written breakdown. You DO like the idea of having somewhere for people to discuss media.

We have a "General Media" section where content not produced by our users, i.e. Popular Media, can be discussed and/or showcased. (At one time, I remember the Literature forum itself was actually broken up this way. If we merge medias, it might actually make sense.)

We then have a "User Media" section where content created or developed or otherwise contributed to by our users can be showcased. This could be anything from music to podcasts to artwork to indie movies and everything in between. I'm even open to the idea of sharing visual mods, so long as it's within Creative Commons licensing and nothing that would violate any copyright laws (like Jecht's reskinning stuff).


Are we on the same page?

[SOLDIER #819]

We were basically talking about the same thing while putting an emphasis on different aspects...I think, haha. I viewed the Art and Literature forums as place where people post there own art/fanfics (the two most popular user-created media here) AND discuss art and literature in general. But people seldom talk about popular art and literature, so it effectively becomes a place to post user-created content, which is what you'd want your "User Media" to be. I would just call it the Art & Literature forum, though, so that people can post about a book or deviantart they came across.

The problem with your "General Media" idea is that music, movies, anime, books, art... everything, falls under it, going by the name alone. But with the existence Visual Media and Audio Media forums, General Media just becomes an inactive Art & Lit forum (as all user-created content has been moved to "User Media"), with the addition of a very confusing name. It'd be a waste of space.

[LocoColt04]

I'm saying that General (or Popular, choice of wordplay notwithstanding) and User Media would REPLACE the current proposal of Visual, Audio, and Written Media sections. So, instead of the latter trio, it could be the former duo. On the same page now?

Yes, I understand Popular Media would encompass a lot of things... movies, music, television, as well as books and such - but is the activity so great that they should be separate things?

I'm still down for the three-way split, but you mention the confusion of having a custom fanart thread next to a movie thread.

[SOLDIER #819]

When you put it that way, Pop Media and User Media work. I'd call them something a bit more "user-friendly" (don't use the word "media"), but overall it sounds like it'd be good. As you said, none of the forums have THAT much going on in them.

Where would people post other people's game art/fanart? In Pop Media or User Media?

[Michael Swayne]

So basically, instead of having to sift through threads to see if a previous topic can answer my question about a specific FF game; you are asking us to sift through double, triple or even six times as many threads to find out if a question we are asking about a game has already been answered? And all because a particular section only gets 5 or less threads each month?

One of the reasons I prefer TFF over other similar forums is that everything is nice and separated. Now, I can understand this consolidation idea if it had benefits other than making it look like there is more activity at TFF. Does it make the server run more efficiently or something? Is there some other good reason that I am not seeing?

What this idea makes me think of is throwing all of the junk from every room in a house all into one room, and just to make the other rooms look tidier. You still have the junk, except that it is in a room that no one enters often. And then if you need something from that room, you will be searching for it for hours because all the junk is in there.

Those are just my two cents. Feel free to enlighten me if I am not grasping the idea of this.

[Victoria]

Mike actually brings up a really good point. The consolidation really won't solve a thing except making TFF look 'active/nice'. But I also say to Mike; We have a Search/Filter function for the forums. Just put in certain keywords and the topics will be filtered and narrow your field of rummaging. So there's not really much of an excuse not to condense things.

1. As far as renaming Member Business goes, maybe just Comings & Goings or Departure & Arrival; something like that, because really it's not used for anything else.

2. I like the Pop/User Media split myself. It also seems I missed the ID thing. I'm with S in that it really doesn't need to be there (or at least should be renamed to something else.. can't think of a name at the moment.) but it's already been decided that it's not going to move. So, oh well.

Other than that, I like the draft that was put up in the first post.

Oh wait.. How active is the Clubs forums, really? Do we even really need it anymore? Is it something that can be hidden? I know it has lots of history and such, but I don't know. What I do know is that at least Soldier and EBG have a little more activity than the main clubs forum. Eh, I just think with Social Groups, Clubs is rather obsolete. Although we've had that discussion before.

[SOLDIER #819]

Michael: There is no other benefit. But in the same way you don't want to sift through 15 different threads in a given forum to find what I want, I don't want to sift through 15 different forums in a single category. The difference is that the former is normal while the latter highly unusual, and people have to see the latter every single time they browse TFF's index.

Most of the FF forums have one or two "active" threads, so whatever scanning you'd be doing is nothing compared to what we already do every day. And even if you get used to it, it still looks unwieldly to a person who just found TFF. Some kind of consolidation is necessary given our activity levels.

[LocoColt04]

@Michael: I'm not personally looking to lump everything into gigantic categories, but that's why this is a discussion. I want to consider the opinions of everyone who bothers to share them. S is in favor of large consolidation, and so we tossed ideas around on how it could work. That doesn't mean that's how it will end up.

@Victoria: Yeah, pop/user is probably a good split. As for the non-mainstream but non-user created stuff, perhaps through clever naming and thorough forum description, we can decide which of the two it belongs in. none of these proposed forums have set names, just topical descriptions so we know what we're discussing in the meantime.


Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Mystyrion]

Game Room
• General Final Fantasy
• First & Second Generation: Final Fantasy I-VI
-I
-II
-III
-IV
-V
-VI
• Final Fantasy VII & Spinoffs
• Third & Fourth Generation: Final Fantasy VIII-XII
• Final Fantasy XIII Fabula Nova Crystallis
-FFXIII
-FFXIII-2
-Agito
-Versus
• Final Fantasy Tactics Series
• Final Fantasy Online: XI & XIV
• General Gaming

I like this consolidation the best.

Though for the reason Michael posted.
Couldn't we just have a sub forum for each game within the forum. (see bold)
It keeps everything nice and separated and gives us a smaller, neater look I guess.

Though with the HD version of X coming out, you might want to separate that from the third and fourth generation.

[Andromeda]

My memory isn't what it used to be with the forums. But I know we had the FF sections set up like you're suggesting Loco a while ago. I think we went through the same logic for combining it that you're going through now. So the question is why did we divide it up again? And what's to say that we aren't going to do that again. I enjoy order as much as the next person, but repeating something that we undid before seems like we are just repeating old decisions that we found not in the interest of the forums. But I can't remember the decision on why we went back to individual forums.

I agree Drawing/Painting/Digital Painting and Writing are both forms of art, but they are pretty distinctive forms as well. It's going to feel a little weird seeing writing next to the last drawing someone made. They are alike in a broad sense, but are two very divergent talents/skills. They probably should remain divide, it is only Art and Writing. Two forums rather than one isn't hurting anything and both have a fairly substantial archive.

I think mostly a reorganization is useful in bringing other things under the same umbrellas while maintaining their individual identities.

[Mystyrion]

The only fault I see with it is that it could be very unfamiliar for new members and a convenience thing. Having to click multiple times to get the forum that you are wanting to be at.
But I would be interested to know why it was switched. I've only been here under a year. So the format we have now is the only format I've seen.

[Victoria]

It was split last time because things got too active and too clustered for a combined forum; so they were split. And now since the activity has took a nosedive, it's time to be condensed again.

[Imposter]

I remember when all them were subforums under names of places...it was like that when I first started. As for my part in the discussion I'm pretty impartial, as a member that doesn't use half the forums on here anymore it would be nice not having to scroll down so far on the main page to get to things....I mean my poor finger and all that exercise you forum execs make it do.

Is it much of a problem to reverse the change of consolidation after it is made if everyone goes up in arms about it? I do appreciate the fact that we can at least have a discussion about it, and I didn't just sign in one day and bam the forum was all changed. Another forum I'm on did that and I still hate the change...

[SOLDIER #819]

But I would be interested to know why it was switched. I've only been here under a year. So the format we have now is the only format I've seen.

There were a few reasons if I remember right. One of the major ones is that it hid activity. It was very hard to tell what forums had been posted in from the index since multiple forums were lumped together under one super-forum. It was also harder to check each forum. You had to click the forum, then click to get to another forum... I think one or two of those forums had a subforum...so that sucked too. It'd be even worse now, where you'd have to click about three times to get to that one new post.

It sounded nice in theory, but in practice a whole bunch of issues came up.

[Mystyrion]

There were a few reasons if I remember right. One of the major ones is that it hid activity. It was very hard to tell what forums had been posted in from the index since multiple forums were lumped together under one super-forum. It was also harder to check each forum. You had to click the forum, then click to get to another forum... I think one or two of those forums had a subforum...so that sucked too. It'd be even worse now, where you'd have to click about three times to get to that one new post.

It sounded nice in theory, but in practice a whole bunch of issues came up.

Maybe a compromise. Instead of grouping two generations together, group them separately. That would make it easier to see what was posted in and what wasn't, but still consolidating the forums.

I really don't like have a sub forum inside of a forum. (unless it's like how I explained) Like kingdom hearts as a sub forum inside of general FF. I feel that those games don't get enough attention because of that.
I can understand it for the less populated forums. But I feel that some of them aren't receiving the attention they deserve because of that.

[Michael Swayne]

as a member that doesn't use half the forums on here anymore it would be nice not having to scroll down so far on the main page to get to things....I mean my poor finger and all that exercise you forum execs make it do.

That's why there is this...

SPOILER!!:

It allows you to hide sections that you don't want to see and saves your poor finger from exercising so much. It makes this...

SPOILER!!:

look like this...

SPOILER!!:

If you don't look at a specific section of the forum, hide it. And don't frown, because the next time you log back in, those sections you hid will still be hidden.

There were a few reasons if I remember right. One of the major ones is that it hid activity. It was very hard to tell what forums had been posted in from the index since multiple forums were lumped together under one super-forum. It was also harder to check each forum. You had to click the forum, then click to get to another forum... I think one or two of those forums had a subforum...so that sucked too. It'd be even worse now, where you'd have to click about three times to get to that one new post.

This is why there's "New Posts" in the bar at the top of the screen. So you don't have to spend time with useless clicking and scrolling. And there's also the "Today's Posts" in the Quick Links Drop Bar (also located at the top of the screen). AND there's also a search-function (titled "Display Options") at the bottom of each forum (for example, General Chat) that allows you set the threads you want to see in that forum from a specific time frame. Not only that, you can set what threads get displayed in the "Thread Display Options" section of the "Edit Options" in your User CP. This allows you to see only threads that had been made within the last day up to the last year (Default setting is all threads ever) permanently, or until you decide to change it again.

So basically, you can set things to be hidden yourself, and you can make it so older threads are not shown to you. The way things are right now make things easier for newer members to join in on everything at TFF. Having forums grouped together would make things look cleaner on the outside, but if a person is wondering about whether Final Fantasy IV is a good game for example, they could be misled into thinking that there are characters called Bartz or Terra because FF4 threads are mixed in with FF5 and/or FF6 threads. Do we then ask people making threads to specify in the titles what game is to be talked about in that thread? To me, that would get really annoying really fast. And what of the threads already made? Do the admins have to do extra work and change the titles of every thread to say what game is mentioned. I can't speak for the other members, but I don't want to read a post to find out what game it is referring to. That's why things have titles.

[Cyanist]

ID was just me being hopeful. Seriously, no matter what people think, more moderation isn't going to change that it's just a forum for a handful of people. :\ The "majority" of those who voted don't even post there.

Yeah, I'm guilty.

I notice we seem to be talking about forum sub-divisions. I, too, consider it of high import to have the perfect layout in order to attract more members (it's like a business, right?)
I don't agree with bunching the arts and musics, though. I think we should expand on those. I think maybe if good art were displayed more often, people would think we're cooler and more populated than...well, than we are.

How about putting all FFVII related fan-art in with the FFVII forum, and so on (or we could just feature one really good drawing somewhere visible every month)? Also, could we possibly put mini-forums of certain music threads into their corresponding game sub-forums? Like FFVII themes in the FFVII forum (and consequent discussions) ...etc?
Heheh, it's just an idea, though. I'm not devoted toward them or anything. I just came up with them on the spot, actually and I'll totally understand if they get trashed.