Printable View
I knew I'd heard that somewhere...Quote:
Originally Posted by vevuxking102
So this your little sect mate?
Small numbers, crazy looking face. People like this aren't non-denominational. They're in some little sect.
Which to me voids your interpretations of the bible in my eyes. And as it's all you've used... yeah.
As I had said in my rep I gave to you, you are arrogant indeed. I can care less if I get warned for spam or flaming but I would love to get a cross and shove it up your ass so that way that bible of yours can go up to your head and out of it.
From what I've been reading since you started this thread. These are your interpretations of the bible. Mind you, the bible has been written in many versions throughout time. So there's no need to preach what's right and what's wrong with people. So chill out, get laid, and stop being close minded on other people's beliefs.
Look, can we steer this back in the right direction?
Vevu, if you're going to steer conversations away from the original topic, I'll have you banned from Intellectual Discussion for derailing subjects.
Keep on topic, please.
If you want to reply to this, take it to PM, please. Thanks.
Wow, I can't even be assed to read all of this thread. Or even all of the first page.
The bible is not fact. You really want me to believe there was a great flood of 40 days and 40 nights that destroyed all life on earth except for what one man, gifted by god, had saved on his boat?
That'd be the 2nd case of the population being inbred according to the bible.
You really expect me to believe that we all started from one man, and one woman from said man? Then again after Noah's ark we all restarted from one family?
Go down to the Southern US and look at what inbreeding just one or two generations does to those families and tell me that part of the bible again with a straight face.
In my opinion:
The bible, the ten commandments, ect, were all written BY MAN to RULE MAN via FEAR.
It's merely guidelines to live a morally correct life. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is the only quote from my Catholic School youth I'll bother to remember.
I agree with Chez Daja, this thread of mine has gone way off topic. Just PM me if you have something to say that isn't directly related to the discussion on the Ten Words.
As for not being non-denominational and being apart of Westboro, I already said my church split from them well over 20 years ago, before I was even born, over denominational issues. Westboro never claims to be non-denominational, they claim to be baptist/Calvinist. They even follow the TULIP manifesto, which is Calvinist.
I've never personally met any of them in my life, but we do share certain beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vevuxking102
this one quoted from Matthew 22:37-40Quote:
i don't think Jesus Christ Himself forgot about ten commandments....
well if you read in the Bible you will find there that He just mentioned 2 commandments:
1. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the great commandment.
2. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
On these two commandment hang all the law and the prophets
well, He never forgot the ten commandments from the Old Testament, in fact if you notice that He just mentioned two, it speaks about the fulfillment of the Law... notice the word "love" in the passages here, it means that if you have love, then you are willing to do what God's commandments saying about (just like the saying, if there is a will, there's a way) Now Jesus also told to His disciples that "Think not that I come to destroy the law, but to fulfill" ( i can tell to you more details about this, i got this one from the Bible) Right now i'm just emphasizing that He never forgot this commandments... and take note that the ten commandments you are talking about is especially for the children of Israel (Exodus 20)... now called Jews
the next one that you told is you don't think that these commandments are good... you just said it because we cannot able to do them all am i right? yes i admit for myself that i cannot fulfill those commandments... many people today said that "i can go to heaven by doing good, or by obeying those ten commandments" but notice about one commandment number 9 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against neighbors" meaning don't lie.... what do you think about it? do you think you don't lie always to your friends? I admit i already lied to someone, even what we called white lies....
God is holy, while we are not.... i don't know if you believe on this. But if you think about what Jesus Christ mentioned about the commandments, love will work... He came here to this earth, died on the cross for us, to pay the price (our sins) now it's our choice to trust Him...
this is what i believe...
There has been hate rolling through this thread. Wow. Over such an intended peaceful subject. I'm not casting blame, but I am a little awed at the skill required to turn this thread into a flamethrower. So props to whomever accomplished that.
Moving on to the ten-not-so-subtle-suggestions. I think they are an admirable ethos. In this day and age they can be appreciated for what they were. They were a magnificent system that kept society intact.
Authenticity, written by the flaming finger of God. I'm not primarily Christian. My gf is. So by proxy that makes me atleast half-Christian. I have no evidence to disprove that God wrote it himself. If he did. That's quite a statement seeing God does not do things like that lightly or often. But those were more primordal times and people needed direction.
Do I believe that God wrote them? I have the luxury to believe whatever I damn well please. Just like everyone else. People who believe in witchcraft, zombies and revered ancestors. And I'm brighter than some of them. I believe. Because I want it to be true. This reality is what I say it is, seeing it is happening to me, thus I believe God wrote it.
This in no way conflicts with my main beliefs in Taoism. Because I don't let it. Do you see how hopeless and frustrating it is to try and convince people of something? It really is none of your business nor mine. In the end it's just a fact. Do I believe? Do you not?
But I do believe. And I try to follow those commandments as much as I can.
-Sin
Seconded. I couldn't go to the first page. Was too amazed just by the second one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean
Anyways, there is a degree of good intention in the Ten Commandments. They are rules for some, suggestions for others (depends on where do you place your authority), but they are noble rules and suggestions indeed. By refusing to kill, you are respecting life. By refusing to lie, you honor truth, and honor even bonds such as friendship, as oftentimes you need to speak the truth, but yet stand for your friend. A lesson is better than sympathy at times, but sympathy often tends to be the best way to go.
Perhaps the first four rules (acceptance of God as one and only, refusing to worship false idols, respect the Holy Days, and respect the parents), aren't much of sense, but they can be understood. If you convert, you are willingly accepting God. Makes little sense to follow the first Commandment when you aren't willing to accept it. Neither the second. The third is universal for those who accept a religion: it is respect for the belief. Christians see Sunday or Saturday as a day of rest, and are often required to believe in it. So do Muslims with their Ramadan, or Jews with the Yom Kippur.
Fourth Commandment is respect for authority, but the closest authority a person can have: parents. It's also honoring the hard work they do to raise you. Hard to follow when you're an orphan or when you didn't lived with your parents, but sometimes the adoptive parents, the elder siblings, the grandparents, or the legal guardians take care of those matters. For all means, they are parents and it is suggested to honor them.
The Ten Commandments may seem like harsh, or antique, or perhaps limited, but they have still relevance to the followers, and particularly the last ones are wonderful suggestions even to non-Christians. Some of those Commandments are recognized in the Letter of Human Rights, which is also a magnificent set of suggestions for our modern world.
But...if you don't wish to follow, then there is little to do. You can try to convince them to at least respect the suggestions, or even at least try to get them to respect you.
Respect. Key word, isn't it?
Honestly, The 10 Commandments are good guidelines on how to live your life. But, I think the best way to follow all of those at once is to listen to the word of Jesus Christ. As he said in the Gospels, "Listen, I give you a new commandment; love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself."
That is the best way to go by it imo. Treat everyone else on how you want to be treated, and worship God with everything you have first and foremost. To me that is obeying all the commandments in ez mode, and it changes the attitude on how you view it as well.
Hey all (if any of you remember me), back here after a long time.
I read most of the first page, and now I'm going to respond to some things from that and some things from the "Previous 25" shown on the bottom of this reply page. I'm organizing this thing by the thoughts presented, read whatever interests you and ignore whatever doesn't:
The Ten Commandments
The eleven commands that make up the "10 Words" or "10 Commandments" are some pretty meaty things. I suppose I take stock in all of 'em if I was trying to imagine a good way to work through good old fashioned worship.Quote:
Originally Posted by vevuxking102
Some things to keep in mind for the nitpickier arguments:
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Wray
The 11 commands that makeup the ten commandments weren't numbered in the original texts, sentences weren't separated. Even the verse numbers we use now were added in after the original texts only by folks who wanted to facilitate the referencing of these texts.Quote:
Originally Posted by vevuxking102
Even wonkier, the Commandments are placed in two separate points in the Bible, neither referring to what's on the stones but what "God said" or "he said". And then these two separate sections (Exodus 20 and Deutoronomy 5) don't quite agree.
Not saying you shouldn't play the nitpick game, I'm just saying you should be thorough when you do it and you should think about it.
Vevux's weaving together of various quotes from different sections, while fine for constructing a more thorough idea of what God might be intending, does step out of the "10 Words" category we're all looking at here, though.
____________
Another idea that seems to be coming up is the idea of a lost relevance of these commandments. The commandments that make up the "Good Conduct" section (from "Shall not murder' to the end) are still upheld by basically all the current legal systems of the world.
The first few, the "Proper Worship" ones, are not irrelevant in the sense that they do not describe the proper worship of a jealous monotheistic god. But they may be irrelevant to some of us here in the sense that some of us here may not want to partake in the "proper worship" of a God (myself included). But I suppose if any of us improper worshippers have a change in faith, and are wondering how that change in faith might be put into good behavior, these instructions are just as valid now as they ever were.
"Honor your father and mother" is somewhere between worship and conduct (aint that cool?) and depending on what Bible school you go to, it'll be categorized differently (if they use the categories I used at all). I suppose honoring parents has sort of lost its status as a mandate in the modern world, and I suppose it should. I work with a decent number of abused kids, and part of what exacerbates their trauma is the fact that abuse by their parents breaks society's logic. "Mommy has to be a good person. I have to be able to trust her. So if she hits me and says I deserve it, then it must be the case." Learning to deal with this "contradiction" is a lot of the heartache a lot of people go through, and the assumption that one's parents inherently deserve honor (because it assumes that the parents are automatically good and caring) makes for a lot of messes.
Perhaps it should be said that one should honor those who "care for you" in a broader sense of returning favors. That'd be a keen "update" for this commandment (and some Bible schools will expound this commandment to mean something along those lines). Or maybe this one is going to just continue fading away in its relevance.
((St. Augustine, a Catholic philosopher, broke 'em up in a different way where the first 3 are about man's relationship to God, parents->false witness are about man's relationship to other people, and the last two are about man's relationship to himself ie: his private thoughts about other things.
There's good stuff about the different numberings of the Commandments between religions on Wikipedia, the fount of all knowledge))
____________
There's an idea coming from Vevux and that's used by millions of other folks that there's a theological reason these commandments should be ignored.
Vevux' thinking can be traced back to St. Paul himself, that dude who invented Christianity (or, at least wrote the rules for the Christianity we know). St. Paul himself was also playing with ideas that were being tossed around by the Rabbis of 1st century Judaism. Namely, that God wrote one set of laws with Moses that Moses went down to bring it to Israel, and then upon seeing the calf incident shattered. And then God wrote a new set of commandments punishing unfaithful Israel (that stressed the no worshipping other Gods point. Wonder why?) and that held with God are purer commandments that the world just didn't deserve. So Paul works this idea to say that the purer commandments were deserved by Christians governed by the Holy Spirit. But that's not to say that one should defy the commandments. Instead, Paul implies that by submitting to the holy spirit, you'll naturally desire a pattern of behavior within the bounds of this law. This is inherently purer, because it means you aren't rubbing up against these boundaries or being conscious of them, and you're no longer a slighted person who checks what he wants, but a person who automatically wants what's good.
Clever idea, no?
If we look at the gospels themselves, however, Jesus expresses his two great commandments (Love God with All your Stuff and your Neighbor too) as representing the essence of the commandments, not as something that'll replace 'em, but the idea from which they all grow (and that's pretty easy to see). Rabbi Hillel plays the same game with a student asking him to simplify the gospels/laws by presenting him with what we know as the Golden Rule "That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it." Rabbi Jesus, like Rabbi Hillel, isn't saying that the previous stuff has been thrown out and he's definitely not saying that he forgot it, but is showing his mastery of those rules, and a thoroughness of understanding of it. But in the same way that the punchline of the Hillel story is "go learn it" (said to an annoying scholar), this is the same jab Jesus is putting on the annoying pharisees in Matthew.
Seven Deadly Sins
Dante's analysis in Purgatory's the best one ever. Doctor Aquinas himself also did some cool stuff on it too, I think. I never read it though but a teacher once told me about it.
Dante breaks it up into a tiered system on a mountain.
Lust
Gluttony
Greed
-
Sloth
-
Wrath
Envy
Pride
Pride, accordingly, is the "foundation" of all other sin. (Augustine himself explains that there is only one sin, Pride... all other classifications of Sin are made by humans, but all Sin is just the Pride of putting your judgments, desires, or inclinations above God's)
Vergil gives a little speech explaining the bracketing off I just did. Humanity has a natural love (for God) and all sin is the messing up of this love. The bottom 3 are the worst because they're the peversion of humanity's natural love. The middle is the absence of love for things (and thus, motivation). And the top 3 are sins coming from a misappropriating of humanity's natural love and placing it on the wrong objects made by God.
General Usage of the Bible
If we think of the Bible like a dictionary, yeah, it's only going to be useful so long as it's updated. And nobody would dare trust a dictionary any older than 30 years, forget 2,000 years.
But the wisdom of the Bible is purports to be something more permanent and relevant. One thing in the Bible that really supports that is that even when it was updated, the updates were never "deletions". Popular source theories say that what we call "contradictions" are the bibles are actually revisions made by later Bible copyists. But none of these copiers omitted or "forgot" the previous version's words, but just added the revision to the old document, and they were supposed to sit together.
Even if you don't believe in Source theories (and a whole bunch of people don't). Paul's belief that Deutoronomy didn't hold for non-Jewish Christians never stopped Christians from looking continually copying it. In the Quran too, Medinan suras are supposed to supersede Meccan suras, but for the appropriate reading, you're supposed to see it all together. True religious wisdom involves seeing the old and the current and really figuring how they fit together.
So even though the Bible has stopped, sermons haven't. If you let the sermons be your "current" and the Bible be your old, unomitted text, you'll be working with the same logic of eternal wisdom that those back in the day did, and while the Bible itself aint so fresh, the wisdom will be just as fresh.
____________
People were talking about the issues of translation. What I know about translations is that the Revised Standard Version is supposed to be the hottest one out there for a good formally correspondent translation (that is, the meanings of the words are translated over 1 by 1 and are translated consistently). So this gets you a general sense of what words are repeated, are references to other passages in the same work, etc. And if you look up a given verse in Greek or Hebrew, figure out which word matches up with the English word, you can be pretty secure in assuming that every instance of this English word will be an instance of that Greek word in the original text. It's very helpful.
New Revised Standard (NRSV) was made PC and so the translation aint so trustworthy. But it'll also be a lot easier to find.
Also, the King James Bible is a lot better than some people make it out to be. Aint great, and I'd always double check it before quoting it at someone else. But if I was freshly reading something, I'd feel save with it.
The Ten Commandments:
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto the any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD Thy God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor they fater and they mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet.
(Exodus 20:1-17)
Now there are the Ten Commandments. And yes, every single person on the face of the earth has broken one or more of them. But Jesus also said, "If ye ask for forgiveness, forgiveness shall be given."
There are so many arguments regarding religion on these forums! Why? The fact of the matter is....you either believe or you don't. Why would anyone condeme someone else for their beliefs? I for one do believe in God, Jesus, AND the Commandments. I believe in Heaven and Hell. And just because I can't see any of those things does not mean that they don't exist. You can't see air, wind, the O-zone, or your heart.....but they all exist don't they. If you don't believe in God or any of the things listed, that is your option. But if you don't believe, don't try to push your non-beliefs on me any more than I would try to force you to believe in what I do. It's a never ending argument that no one is going to be able to prove. Let each believe what they want and leave it at that.
Koda, I think you should be a little more fair to yourself.
Beliefs are meaningful things... not just understandings of the world, but ways to be in the world. For example, my understanding of the O-Zone I don't see makes me kinda hesitant every time I spray an aerosol can, kinda worried every time I step out into the sun for a long day. My belief in the existence of my invisible heart and my belief in the even more intangible "cholesterol level" (at least you can hear your heart) has utterly reshaped my diet in the last year.
I am an atheist, and my hope that there is no God isn't just some dead understanding of the world. It guides the way I live my life. I am compassionate because I do not believe that any other entity will give people the "justice" I believe they deserve. I am very urgent and short term in my plans emotionally because that is all I think I have. I also live my life in a very narrow circuit... since I do not live in a Civitate Dei but just in specific personal interactions, I put all my value on this network of interactions and never think about the bigger picture... maybe I barely even think about the individuals in it as people. Maybe I don't even think of myself as a person... just as a sum total of a bunch of verbs.
As you just listed, there are 10 commandments to guide the way you live your life. And this way of living, I hope, is as important to you as my way of living is to me. If it is so important, I urge you to jump into the conversation because your understanding of the world is valuable, important, and--in its own particular manifestation--unique to you. I am grateful that you will not "try to force you to believe in what [you] do", but I think there is a way of sharing your beliefs and arguing for them that is not forceful. Many here will appreciate hearing them, that is why when they log onto this forum they click on the "Intellectual Discussion" board and look around.
Share what you can and what your are comfortable with. Share AS MUCH as you can and are comfortable with. Even if someone dives right into arguing with you in their response posts, know that they are thankful for the opportunity.
Now, to address something you have there:
It is a bit more complicated than that, and even if you don't want to play the yelling game of "GOD EXISTS!" "NO HE DOESN'T!" (which, back when I moderated this forum, happened a lot), there can be more questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by: Koda
Why? The fact of the matter is....you either believe or you don't.
The fact that there are multiple separate denominations of Christianity, many of whom share a bunch of core beliefs (Bible, Divinity of Jesus, Bodily Resurrection, Importance of his death in some cosmic scheme) shows that there is more to the picture than simply whether someone believes or does not (otherwise they would all be the same denomination).
There is another question: "So, God exists... now what?"
In my time as a theology major, we never wasted words on the "believe or don't" issue. Yet even without giving a word to that issue (which has gotta be half of it) we never ran out of things to talk about. "Now what?" is a BIG question with a lot of possible answers and a lot of things to argue over.
For those amongst us who believe in God, the argument is terrifically important. If there is a God out there, you are doing Him wrong if you're not doing right by Him. At best, it is a heartbreaking tragedy to do wrong by the being who has done so much for you. At worst, it is a punishable offense.
Well, that's all I have to say. I hope the automated TFF e-mail that told me to come back to the forums is happy.
Didn't go through thread but right off the bat we get...inaccuracyQuote:
Originally Posted by vevuxking102
Jesus did not forget the 10 commandments, what you MIGHT be referring to was when he was asked which is the greatest commandments, which was really a trick question, if he had answered with one of the 10, he would have been ridiculed for devalueing the others.
You don't think they are good commandments, please, tell me which one is the bad one.
1:You shall not have any gods before me - If you are christian, im not seeing why you would have a problem with this one.
2:You shall not make yourself an idol - Not sure where problems could be here God says don't make an idol, don't see how you shouldn't follow this one.
3:Do not take the lords name in vain - Are you going to sit here and say its okay to say "God Damnit!"?
4:Remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy - Are these commandments too difficult for your or something?
5:Honor your father and mother - Here's where the emo kids probably have problems, most people are so spoiled they don't realise they should respect their parents for bringing them into the world, as well as feeding and raising them. MOST people don't even get that.
6: You shall not murder - Killing is okay, God commanded plenty of people to be killed, murder is a different issue, I'd hope you wouldnt have a problem following it
7: You shall not commit adultery - Are you gonna say cheating on your spouse is okay sometimes?
8: Do not steal - ...
9: Do not bear false witness about your neighbor - Don't gossip, don't lie, these are things everyone can adhere to
10: Do not covet your neighbor's wife or belongings - Not sure you can have a problem with that.
I don't really think there is a religion that doesn't follow these same principles, save for a few crazy ones.
I'll start by saying I'm athiest first of all, so anyone who wants to blindly dismiss my words as herecy or blasphemy because it doesn't conform to their preconceptions like our friend Vevu, feel free, I won't take offense.
I was raised Lutheran, and went to a Lutheran elementary school, so I had this stuff drilled into my head a few times. Basically, I see the Ten Commandments as Two, with much clarification on what they mean. 1-4 I reduce to "Love God", 5-10 I reduce to "Love Man". Being athiest, the first four hold absolutely no meaning or value to me, so I'll focus on 5-10, which I consider to be far more important. These aren't exactly divine wisdom being given to us so that we may better understand the ways of God. Most of it is just plain old common sense to most people. Don't be a ****, don't take what isn't yours, don't go on random stabbing sprees for entertainment. These aren't things punished by any God in this life, these are simple tennets of what it is to be a good person. Failure to abide by them is punished by man. Not nescessarily via law, but by being shunned from society, or being generally recognized as something less than everyone else. Nobody should need a God to tell them that mass murder is generally frowned upon, or that telling your parents to go die in a fire is overall a pretty piss-poor way of repaying them for your existence. Even a blasphemous athiest such as myself doesn't just go around killing people for sport... often. All of this stuff really just seems like basic common sense.
This seems interesting, so I'll voice my opinion.
Spoiler: "Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” -Matthew 22:34-40 NIV
I don't believe in obeying the more aggressive Commandments, since Jesus Himself has stated that those two certain Commandments wrap up the Law and Prophets (commonly known today by Christians as the Old Testament). And while some stories and rules in the Old Testament seem to lean on brutal punishment and even death, these two Commandments include one great word: Love. And after all, God is love. And since we're on that note, let's read something else I came across.
Spoiler: "What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." -Galatians 3:19-25 NKJ
In other words, why dwell in the past? Let's just obey what Jesus preached, including the greatest Commandments He mentioned, and what the Apostles taught as they made trips in the surrounding countries. The Law did its part until Christ came. Now it's Faith's turn to lead us.
I prefer the Boondock saints code of conduct:
"Do not Kill...
Do not Rape...
Do not Steal...
These are principles, which every man of every faith can embrace"
::note from Meier:: I am going to go ahead and let this one slide. Even though the whole thing could be made into a simple sentence. From now on try to add more content to your posts in the ID forum. - Meier.