I'll try to keep my posts obama related, I do think discussions are very relevant to an obama discussions since we have differing definitions of socialism, and defining pro's and cons of socialism will help an obama discussion as to the pro's and cons of his idealogy. If we need to make a new thread no problem, but I did want to address joe's post. And I find it funny nobody has responded to ANY of my comments directly. Even the people that agree with me ;). And I would like to also mention that I frequently have mentioned obama's policies(heath care, stimulus. ie its not my fault the thread got a slap on the wrist)
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Originally Posted by
Joe
Ok Heartless Angel, so from what I'm seeing in your posts, you seem to have a lot of disdain for poor people. After all, almost all poor people must be poor because they are either too lazy or too stupid to fix their situation, right?
Too Lazy and Too stupid are the game breaker's for the majority of the people that are poor, but as I have said before, I would also include different life goals(maybe they want to take on the burden of other families debt, maybe they really enjoy a living on a low income and cash flow) as well as people who have made poor life decisions in the past and now are stuck in the rat race of debt and are trying to work their way out.
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What about those of us who are poor, despite intelligence and busting our asses to make things better? What about those of us who genuinely Need some form of healthcare assistance, or living assistance, despite hauling ass at our jobs? People get sick, people lose jobs when they get sick, is that because they were too stupid or lazy to plan ahead and figure something out?
Well then these intelligent people that are busting there ass to make it better probably won't stay poor for relatively long now will they? Although I would have to question their planning skills if they were to get sick and lose there job and then be tragically doomed to a poor situation for life.
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Take my situation for instance, I'm hauling ass at my job, making Under minimum wage, since i'm part time, and until last week, my schedule would not allow a second job unless I was willing to sleep approximately 4 to 5 hours a night, and work a 16+ hour day including commutes. I can't afford health care, nor does my employer provide it, I have multiple wisdom teeth coming in, and need to get them pulled before they mess up my bite any more than it is. However, purchasing food, gas for my car, making my loan payments for technical school, and covering my insurance as well as assisting my mother with her bills leaves me approximately 10 dollars a month for anything extra.
Well my initial reaction would be to question your intelligent decision making you alluded to earlier if you are making less than minimum wage I would say you are doing something wrong. But even your situation I would say you have plenty of room to work smarter, you said you are now able to get a second job if you wanted so thats certainly possible, other things you could do are sell Blood Plasma, takes about an hour, hour and a half max, you can do it twice a week, and you'll get paid about $30 per donation, coming out to about $240 a month. That's extra cash.
Food Stamps are an option if you aren't already getting them, I am a college student paying $375 a month plus utilities for my apartment, and I am eligible for $400 a month in food stamps, so i'm considering doing that. That's something you could pursue.
Developing a skill in your spare time is another way to make money, for me I play poker, and I can make a decent amount of money part time online at low levels, even in games where the minimum bet is $0.10
Extending on that poker, there are also people that will give you money to play, they train you and you get to keep about half your profits, you need a slight amount of experience for this, but it is an option if you seek it out. I'm currently doing this with small money games, and my backers are willing to let me play much higher games the more I prove myself to them.
All in all the one thing you did say was "Paying my mother's bills" It's great that you do this for her, and I would do the same for my mother's. But we can't pretend that it isn't discretionary spending, you could position yourself better to become successful, but you chose to help your mother out. ie, you have more opportunity then you initially presented, but you chose to help your mother out. Which is handicapping your opportunity, but you are making a conscious decision to do that.
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You say that people who don't go to school are lazy and/or stupid? Again, from personal experience, without money, or a stellar credit history, it's damn near impossible to get the aid necessary to attend a Four year college. I have a two year degree and more IT certifications than you can shake a stick at, but because I'm unable to afford to attend school and earn a 4-year degree, my employment options are Severely limited. Is that my fault? yes, I could've done things differently, however then I wouldn't have had certifications, which are also desired for my field, and required for many positions. I could make more working minimum wage in town, yes. However in the long run, I need every ounce of experience in a professional environment I can get, and this is the only way to get it.
This is different from being chronically poor, you are developing a plan for the long run to be fine. Living more frugally now will benefit you later. Although what you are saying is that you need the 2 year degree, IT certifications, as well as the low paying jobs in order to actually use the 4 year degree, sounds more like you are justifying the 'wrong decisions' you admitted to earlier. Furthermore you are also making a decision of your profession not based on a ratio of success it provides to cost of getting into the profession, but you are making the decision based on other reasons. To put it simply, you are not picking one of the more optimum paths to getting out of being poor, as you have admitted yourself. But that is quite different from not having the opportunity.
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It just so happens that when you're born into a poor family, and no one in your family has a good enough credit history to cosign on a student loan (Mine is actually good, because I've always paid every bill on time, and made sure everything was kept current), it's suddenly awfully goddamn hard to get an education.
Community College, Hard work, different things can accomplish this, spend time at a higher paying job, that isnt required experience for your profession, so that you are able to afford the education, which means you might have to pay out of pocket for it without a student loan.
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I'm not saying socialism is the answer, though I think it's odd that our economy was in excellent shape under clinton when taxes were higher, since, you know, government services, employees, and other related things all cost money. What I'm saying is, I agree with Omni and Alpha, our system, and our society is broken, and just letting those who already have money run everything, obviously isn't going to help others find opportunities.
People with money want to have their money work for them, so they don't have to work, money doesn't have arms and legs though, so it recruits people do to it for them, ie making businesses, hiring people. You aren't suggesting that the solution is to have the government take the money from the people with money and just hand it to those without money, and say that it is giving them more opportunity now are you?
I'm not saying our system isn't broken, i'm just saying that socialist(policies that lean to the left) are not going to work, spending almost $1 Trillion dollars to garuntee that unemployment will be okay(if we didnt spend it we would have had unemployment as high as 9% oh no! oh wait, we did spend it and it still went to almost 10%, higher in michigan, represent.) There are plenty of government programs out there already, and there are plenty of charitable organizations out there already as well, we don't need more programs to bail out people, at the expense of crippling there chance to work their way out.
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Also, if I recall a lot of businesses who have recovered from the recession are STILL not hiring people, because it just so happens that they can make more money by overworking the hell out of their employees. And the employees have no choice but to submit, because it's damn near impossible to find a job in some areas.
I wanted to pretend this was a joke, but I won't, they can overwork their employees because its cheaper? So like paying them overtime is cheaper than hiring a new employee, almost always wrong.
So why aren't businesses hiring? Nobody knows what is going to happen, let me ask you this. If you owned a tanning business, and you were watching the health care debate, at any point during the idealogical battles did you sit there and think "Man this healthcare bill really could harm my business?" I'm guessing not, but sure enough, they pass the bill and now tanning salons have a 15% tax levied on them, nobody has ANY idea who is going to be taxed, if you can tax tanning salons to pay for health care, ANYTHING is fair game. Thats why business CANT hire, or expand, because nobody knows who is going to get taxed next.
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I want to hear some actual solutions from you, rather than just saying a bunch of stuff that you DON'T want to happen.
Tada, quite a few solutions from yours truly.
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One last side note, the price of an education has not jumped because of demand, but rather because there is no risk to any loan for the school, as all federal loans are backed by the US gov't, meaning that the school can charge whatever they want, people who qualify can get the loans that they want, and the government has to pay it if people fall on hard times and can't make the payments any more, resulting in pure profit for both schools and loan companies.
Sounds more like speculation, still wrong aspects though, government took over student loans so loan companies aren't really profitting from this. If you think a school is charging too much, go somewhere else, they aren't price fixing, yes schools are expensive but most have financial aid of their own, as well as the government loans now, but if you really are unable to get a loan you'll have to work hard and also shop hard for the best deals on schools. Also look for charities to help sponsor you, they are out there, and with your story you are much more likely to get a scholarship from one of them.
