A Heaven-related question.

[Leon]

Hi everyone. After seeing some Christians have this mindset, I just had to ask this here. You don't even have to be a Christian to reply (especially since everyone is welcome to reply in this forum, duh!), just as long as you stay on-topic.

Do you think people who don't believe in Christ -- under any circumstance -- will end up in Hell when they die?

Here's my answer: It really depends. Think about it. What about the Indians that lived here before Europeans arrived in America? Did they go to Hell, even though they never heard of Jesus? I say this because so many fanatics just want to stick with one verse from the Bible over anything else. The verse I speak of is this:

Spoiler: Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

A lot of pastors would say that those Indians would be in Hell. Some time ago, I met someone who shrugged off the idea of salvation for those who haven't even heard of Jesus, and simple stuck with John 14:6 as proof.

As a Catholic, I find that way of thinking very disturbing, even if everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I once thought that way when the Melody Weaver passed away. I was sad. I didn't know how close her relationship with Jesus was, so I was worried that she ended up in Hell (she even admitted once that, no matter how hard she tried, she couldn't bring herself to read a Bible).

But then I read an interesting book (which led me to Catholicism), but that's another story. I'm just going to say that I believe now that people who don't know Jesus enough or even the ignoramuses who dare call themselves "Christians" have a chance at salvation.

Spoiler: I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:1-4)

God wants everyone to be saved, so why would He deny salvation for those who don't know Him? Those that deny Him, He will deny, perhaps. but wait, I won't stop with this verse.

Spoiler: (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) -Romans 2:14-15

Two verses written by Paul (filled with the Holy Spirit, written during a time people were starting to get a better understanding of the Gospel) versus a verse that Jesus Himself has stated, even though it was during a time where most people didn't understand what He was there to do. Tell me, what seems like a better choice?

Even if people like Atheists (most who were turned away because of the bad examples in Christianity or religion in general) did good things in life, they have a chance to be saved.

But I also wanna know your opinion. Do you believe that people who don't know Christ will be saved?

[che]

So you want to debate a topic that is an opinion with very very little factual information to back it up? You're just flat out assuming there is a Heaven in the first place, which has never been answered.

I am trying to respect your opinion, because I have my own beliefs as well. However, there's nothing really to debate logically. This discussion will be purely based on opinions.

Unless you're just asking for an interpretation of the bible...

[Imposter]

Che who said anything about debate? Leon asked for our thoughts on the subject. He wasn't saying he was right just that is what he believed. I think you automatically assume discuss means debate...not true mon ami.

I know from evangelical circles it comes down more or less into two categories. Which revolves around in essence free choice. How much free choice are we given or how little. Coming from that perspective that God gave us free choice. Either obey or not (which stems from the Adam and Eve in the garden), and so God continuing in His character (because he doesn't change) in the dispensation of Grace gives us the choice 'Believe in Christ as the payment for all sin or don't'. I'm sure that can be further explained but that is the gist of it. So whether or not someone believes that and makes said choice will ultimately result on their eternal future.

When it comes to those that didn't really have a choice, your Indians for example Leon it comes down to whether you believe that God will answer those that are searching for answers. There is a book called Eternity in Their Hearts written be a missionary called Don Richardson. In essence he makes the argument that throughout history God has revealed himself to other people groups through other means, that pave the way for a decision of a belief in Christ. He substantiates the majority of the book on Romans 1:20 (That God reveals his invisible attributes through Creation). You may want to give it a skim and see all the different finds and proofs he gives from Tribes and peoples all around the world that have been given some sort of extra revelation apart from the complete canon of Scripture.

It comes down to whether God is going to keep His word or not. If he gives people free choice to make decisions in hopes that they will turn to a Savior for their sin and we disobey then we are subject to the punishment he has promised. I don't know if God makes too many exceptions for breaking his standard of perfection...I mean if he did what was the point of Jesus coming to earth and dieing on the cross for sin?

Like the verses you quoted God wishes all to be saved, he isn't saying he saves them all. Just that he wishes that they would be, I know it would've been great if God would have just made us all slaves that could never choose to disobey him so we would be guaranteed a place in Heaven...but he didn't.

I'm at work so I really don't have time to dig for a plethora of verses and what not for you, but I'm pretty sure that is the stance from the majority of evangelical Christianity...or at least what I know from it.

[Leon]

I wasn't trying to start a debate, I just wanted everyone's thoughts on this. Besides, didn't some of you say that I should start on the ID forum when I was starting out so I could stop it from dying?

Geez, che. This was aimed for not just for everyone, but also for people who do believe there's a place we go to after we die. Some people have the Bible to back this up, while others want to see with their eyes. We will never know when we're alive, so I'm just going to wait till I die to I find out.

Some people consider the Bible to be very factual. Just saying that for your safety, buddy, so be careful not to say that everywhere. We have a lot of religious nuts out there who still approve of stoning criminals like in the old Bible days.

[che]

I wasn't trying to start a debate, I just wanted everyone's thoughts on this. Besides, didn't some of you say that I should start on the ID forum when I was starting out so I could stop it from dying?

Geez, che. This was aimed for not just for everyone, but also for people who do believe there's a place we go to after we die. Some people have the Bible to back this up, while others want to see with their eyes. We will never know when we're alive, so I'm just going to wait till I die to I find out.

Some people consider the Bible to be very factual. Just saying that for your safety, buddy, so be careful not to say that everywhere. We have a lot of religious nuts out there who still approve of stoning criminals like in the old Bible days.

I'm sorry, I don't think you can ask for everyone's opinions and only get the "nice" ones, or whatever it is you're looking for that I'm not providing you. If you're going to discuss something publicly, prepare for people with other beleifs to speak up. Perhaps you'd be better off posting this on a Christian/Catholic forum.

@"Geez, che. This was aimed for not just for everyone, but also for people who do believe there's a place we go to after we die."

I dunno what the geez was for. I don't think I was totally out of line in my previous post... And I just want to clarify that. How can I discuss my thoughts if the topic is irrelevant to my thoughts.

It's like saying..."suppose Santa Clause really did only give the good children toys. Do you think the children who don't believe in Santa Clause still get toys who are well behaved?" It's completely irrelevant because I don't believe there is a Santa Clause in the first place.

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify what I meant. I don't want to get off topic on a religious discussion or debate or whatever you choose to call it, so if you'd like to continue that please respond to me via VMs.

And for the record if I did believe there was a god and heaven, then I'd have to say that god would be an asshole for making people logical and then only rewarding those people who believe fairly blindly (that's what faith is right?) in something. He'd have to be fair if he is the real deal.

[Unknown Entity]

There's nothing wrong with opinions, che. Leon could have decided not to bother making a thread, and we'd just get some newb going on about how dead this place is. For the record, I don't think there was anything wrong with your post, but I can see why it'll make people defend the OP.

I believe religion is riddled with holes. Some may argue that science is also riddled with holes, but that's because the facts haven't been found yet; the holes in religion contradict themselves over and over. There's so many interpretations of one religion, it's difficult to know what to believe, and this is just another example. It's one of the reasons that I don't believe in God, Heaven and Hell.

God supposedly forgives people for their sins, and in some interpretations, you'll go to hell if you don't believe in him. If he forgives, why would you go to hell? The Bible teaches love and forgiveness, so what's with all the complicated rules which state whether or not you're worthy of Heaven? The way I interpreted what I was taught at school was that is was a sin not to forgive, and that you were to love thy neighbour. So that sort of makes God capable of sin, not making him the divine relic of religions everywhere.

Unless God believes that sending someone to Hell for eternity is love and forgiveness, which is just ****ed in my opinion. Then you have to wonder if you do go to hell for eternity, or just until you've atoned for your sins.

I believe that when you die, you just cease to be. Some people can't fully disappear, and leave behind a presence. It can strike fear or comfort those who aren't quite dead yet.

[Leon]

Dude, I was just trying to get everyone's opinions on the subject. What is wrong with that? I wanted to see what everyone thought about this, especially when I had a heated debate with someone about this. I wanted to avoid a debate because I know everyone's going to think differently. I pick my fights (if people ever want to go that far) carefully, so I won't start a debate unless I know I'm right. And if I know I'm right, why would I start a debate in the first place, other than being an a**hole?

I could easily say I agree or disagree with the replies so far and why, but am I going to do it? No.

[Meier Link]

Ok, lets get this thread back on track. I was tempted to close it as soon as it opened because I knew eventually there would be some conflict to come from it regarding the existence of heaven and hell.

The existence of heaven and hell is not the subject matter though and is not what the OP is asking for thoughts on. Any further off topic posts will be met with a spam warning.

Leon I would say you could of used a different approach on the OP also. Something along the lines of stating that "Lets assume that heaven is real and the principle of gaining access to Heaven was sound; would people who do not follow Christianity or that have not heard the word of Jesus Christ still have a place in Heaven?

By doing so, you would eliminate the whole "well I can't answer this because I don't believe in Heaven response" because by entering this conversation people would be on the understanding that in this conversation Heaven is assumed to be real.

I don't think you can ask for everyone's opinions and only get the "nice" ones

This is in fact true.

I also suggest that you take Che's advice and take anything off topic that you want to discuss with him out of this thread and into a VM; this goes for anyone wanting to discuss off topic related things.

[Pete]

I think that it ultimately boils down to whatever religion you subscribe to. I'm a fairly lapsed Catholic, so I kind of only believe in the bare bones of everything with it. Do I believe in Jesus and God, sure. I also believe that there is an afterlife, if only because it is a form of reassurance for both myself and my deceased relatives. Could the dead simply be just that? worm food or ashes? Sure, but I'd prefer to think that they're just at peace somewhere other than here.

My main issue with the afterlife and Heaven, is that it seems so ass backwards, as Leon said with his quotes. If God is so benevolent and ultimately wants the salvation of man, and His people to live in His kingdom, why would Jesus say that salvation comes only through Him? To me, that seems a lot like the following analogy:

There's a free party at some sweet club that everyone's invited to, but the owner's son is standing outside trying to collect a cover charge.

That just seems a little backwards and misleading to me.

All in all though, I do believe in a heaven and a hell. I just think that the way it's been described to me, from 12 years of Catholic school is quite misleading. We were taught that if you were truly sorry for your sins, so long as you didn't commit any mortal ones, you'd wind up in either Heaven or Purgatory, which was kind of like a waiting room, where you thought about things and repented some more... or you went to Hell.

Now, I feel that sin is not a black and white matter, and that in having free will, we have the option to do as we do, and to reap both the rewards and consequences of that. I feel that some sins are truly unforgivable, while others are menial. People who repent while alive, and turn their lives around are another story; much too tricky for this post at hand.

All in all though, I feel that if people choose to live a good life, and actively just try to do the right thing, then that's really all God or Jesus could ask for. We were given free will by God, if we weren't made to be responsible for our actions, and to live our lives as WE want, then why do it? Nobody here is Jesus, so nobody should try to live as Him, but rather to follow his Commandments and the Golden Rule: Treat others as you would like to be treated.

I think if you do that, and truly are sorry for your wrongs, Heaven should be there for you, regardless of religion.

But who knows, maybe in the eyes of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, we're all doomed.

[Heartless Angel]

First of all, I'm athiest. Just in case you haven't seen me say that before.

If you believe your beliefs prevent you from answering the question, don't answer it. That's fairly simple. To recycle the Santa analogy, do you go stand in line at the mall around christmas to go sit on the guy in the red suit's lap to tell him you can't tell him what you want for Christmas because you don't believe in him? I certainly don't, I just keep on walking and let the kids have their fun. To answer this as an athiest, you kinda have to adopt the hypothetical approach Meier suggested. Though I'd say it's generally a good idea for OP to say that, it isn't really nescessary when you assume it's going to be reasonable, rational, critically thinking individuals responding. That said, My response from this point will be based on the aforementioned assumption that God, Heaven, and Hell exist (which as an athiest I don't actually believe).

If there is a God, and he is truly benevolent, and truly desires all humanity be saved, why then would he only inform such a small portion of it of his existence if knowing him by this name and this particular religion is of such great importance? It makes no sense. There are two obvious conclusions to be drawn here. Either God is NOT benevolent and doesn't really give a shit whether or not you burn for eternity (which for the purposes of this post I will assume is not the case), or that knowing him as the Christian God, believing Jesus died for your sins and all that good happy crap isn't really the ticket to heaven. There is also the fact that there were cultures before Christianity even came about. Did God just hate everybody up until the year 0? Doesn't make much sense either. When we look at the fact that the people before Christianity also had Gods, and the fact that most every culture has at some point had Gods, now this picture gets a bit more clear (assuming that they were right about there being a divine being in the first place). Why does the bible contradict itself on multiple occasions? Because the bible was written by human hands. Humans have the capacity to make mistakes, and the capacity to lie. This in mind, it's not all that hard to believe that so many other religions have also had contradictions, because they were also spread by fallable human beings. If I were to assume God existed and was benevolent and wanted as all saved, it would make more sense to me that God DID in fact inform all cultures of his existence at some point. They just told the story differently, and their stories changed over time leading to different religions for different cultures, all with a fairly constant theme. "Don't be a dbag, worship me, you'll end up in Awesomeland when you die.", which in their flawed human ways, pretty much every major culture has done to the best of their ability, which any benevolent God would say was sufficient. So if my assumptions thus far have been correct, it would stand to reason that anybody, no matter who they worship can be saved. We athiests are still boned however, since we don't worshop anybody... ah well.

[OnOneRyder]

To give an answer to this I think ideally you need to already assume heaven/hell exist, and that's certainly not where I stand. I think the requirements imposed by a so called "loving" creator are unfair, contrary to morality and plainly put illogical. Everyone has their opinion on god, and what will lead you to salvation and none of it has any real evidence to convince me a nonbeliever to accept one as true. This is entirely due to a lack of a god being evident in this world. Why should someone devote themselves to something which could very reasonably be 100% wrong? Why would a creator demand so much, and the punishment be so very severe if one chooses to ignore threats given by archaic documents and oppressive organizations and admit that the lack of evidence for existence of a god is your reason to not believe. It's bogus, there's such a leap of faith necessary and so many religions claiming to be right that the logical approach is that since none of them have any real supporting evidence is that they're all equally full of shit. Christians have just as much doubt in the existence in Hindu gods as I do, I just happen to think accepting yours is equally foolish.

[Meier Link]

To give an answer to this I think ideally you need to already assume heaven/hell exist, and that's certainly not where I stand. I think the requirements imposed by a so called "loving" creator are unfair, contrary to morality and plainly put illogical. Everyone has their opinion on god, and what will lead you to salvation and none of it has any real evidence to convince me a nonbeliever to accept one as true. This is entirely due to a lack of a god being evident in this world. Why should someone devote themselves to something which could very reasonably be 100% wrong? Why would a creator demand so much, and the punishment be so very severe if one chooses to ignore threats given by archaic documents and oppressive organizations and admit that the lack of evidence for existence of a god is your reason to not believe. It's bogus, there's such a leap of faith necessary and so many religions claiming to be right that the logical approach is that since none of them have any real supporting evidence is that they're all equally full of shit. Christians have just as much doubt in the existence in Hindu gods as I do, I just happen to think accepting yours is equally foolish.

With this said, thread closed.

I gave this topic a second chance and before it gets out of line again I am shutting it down.

This reply has nothing to do with what the OP questioned. I am considering this an off topic reply and issuing a spam warning.