Heaven and hell. Your thoughts on them!

[Drake Teglen]

I am a Christian and a theology student. I'll be the first to say that I have no idea what heaven or hell will be like, but I do believe that both exist. All I know is that heaven is eternal life with the Creator and that hell is eternal separation from Him.

Much of what people say about heaven and hell is more based on tradition than scripture, although Jesus uses one story that says a man found himself in hell and in torment and another man was carried by angels to heaven. It is a general consensus among believers that those who believe in the Lord Jesus will inherit eternal life and those who refuse to believe will inherit eternal damnation.

Jesus also told the repentant thief on the cross that he would be in paradise that very day. Paradise was a term commonly used in Hebrew language to depict the highest level of heaven, as part of their language included different levels of heaven (scripture does not support this).

However, the importance of this is that despite having lived a life of sin, the thief on the cross is instantly assured of not only going to heaven but to the highest heaven, just because he believed in Christ at his death. While I don't believe Jesus was suggesting different layers of heaven, he was talking to the man in language he would understand to reassure him that he would be in the presence of God upon his death.

Again, those who have no faith will have no understanding of these things. Their eyes and ears have been closed and they can't see or hear or understand the things of God. It is only when God's prevenient grace opens a person's eyes and they believe that they can truly believe the things I talked about.

Finally, there are those who have felt convicted but have believed the lie that they are young and have plenty of time to change later. You should wake up and realize the world you live in is chaotic and there is no guarantee you will receive your next breath, let alone another year. Children and teens die every day, and I am sure that almost none of them expected it.

[Rocky]

HEAVEN OR HELL!

LET'S ROCK!!

Ok, sorry for the Guilty Gear reference ( The devil made me do it ). But yeah, as a Christian I believe in both heaven and hell, which heaven is a place of eternal love and worship of God while hell is a place of eternal seperation from Him. Although there is very little mention/proof of this, I don't believe in different "levels" of heaven or hell, all people are equal in the eyes of God and all sins are equal as well.

I believe there were two different people that wrote about visiting heaven and hell during their brief periods of being on the brink of death. I think that the person who visited hell wasn't a believer either, but now has converted after experiencing it. It just shows that God is still using regular people to this very day as His witnesses to Himself. The man was said to have a heart attack and flatlined for over 30 minutes before miraculously resusitated and was brought "back from the dead." The person who was said to have visited heaven was a boy that was killed in a car crash. The boy talked about how when he entered through actual gates he was surrounded by a cheering crowd in a stadium and greeted by his deceased grandfather. As a preacher pulled over on the site of the car accident, he prayed for the dead boy. The boy started to breathe again and was rushed to the hospital. He ended up writing and publishing his testimony. I found both of the books in Walmart, so check there if your interested.

[Gillamobster]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but there's nothing. The notions of Heaven and Hell just reflect the primitive notion of binary morality: this is GOOD, GOOD things are GOOD, you do GOOD you go to GOOD place. Else you burn. Eternally. Why should reincarnation exist? Seriously? It's cool in theory but we've got nothing to justify it save for, "We wish this were the case." Face it, unless you yourself created this here Universe what you "believe" is worth shit.

[Draken Benvolaid]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but there's nothing. The notions of Heaven and Hell just reflect the primitive notion of binary morality: this is GOOD, GOOD things are GOOD, you do GOOD you go to GOOD place. Else you burn. Eternally. Why should reincarnation exist? Seriously? It's cool in theory but we've got nothing to justify it save for, "We wish this were the case." Face it, unless you yourself created this here Universe what you "believe" is worth shit.

That, itself is an Ideal. Same as believing the opposite.
Saying "Prove it exists", is the same as "Prove it doesn't exist".. You can't


Should heaven or hell, existing or not, keep you from doing what is right?

Do you need a reason to do something good?
Yes, without that fear, many would do more horrible things to the world, but is fear a reason to do what is right?

What prevents you from doing murder?


Can you truly trust yourself?
Have you ever questioned your own motives for your actions?

"If you never questioned your actions, ideals, and yourself, how could you ever know what is right or wrong?"




One last thing:

"Being of either light or dark, does not dictate good or evil."

[Gillamobster]

That, itself is an Ideal. Same as believing the opposite.
Saying "Prove it exists", is the same as "Prove it doesn't exist".. You can't


Should heaven or hell, existing or not, keep you from doing what is right?

Do you need a reason to do something good?
Yes, without that fear, many would do more horrible things to the world, but is fear a reason to do what is right?

What prevents you from doing murder?


Can you truly trust yourself?
Have you ever questioned your own motives for your actions?

"If you never questioned your actions, ideals, and yourself, how could you ever know what is right or wrong?"




One last thing:

"Being of either light or dark, does not dictate good or evil."

...dude... seriously? Here's something that keeps people from doing bad shit: THE POLICE. Society is constructed in such a way that bad shit gets punished and morality is spoon-fed to us.

And, by the way, it's called burden of proof. If you claim something exists, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove so, not on me to prove it doesn't. So cut the melodramatic emo crap and use some logic:

1. There is no evidence of any sort of afterlife
2. The notion of Heaven/Hell represents a very basic form of moral duality obviously necessary for societies that lacked the sort of enforcement abilities we have today
3. Societies can function without religion

I'm pretty sure in Soviet Russia and the People's Republic of China, people don't wantonly murder each other any more than they do in the good 'ol Christian USA.

[Doc Rocco]

There is no evidence of any sort of afterlife

Of course not, how are we meant to have proof of this? We can't exactly go dig up old Aunty Mabel and ask her now, can we?

Anyway, as a Christian I do believe in Heaven and Hell. I believe in it as my faith dictates so. There have been numerous recounts of near death experiences from atheists as well. But I need no evidence due to my faith.

So there's my little spiel.

[Furore]

...dude... seriously? Here's something that keeps people from doing bad shit: THE POLICE. Society is constructed in such a way that bad shit gets punished and morality is spoon-fed to us.

Ah seriously man, the police aren't powerful enough. They're reactive rather than proactive with how they deal with crime for the better part. They get called after stuff in society happens.

And, by the way, it's called burden of proof. If you claim something exists, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove so, not on me to prove it doesn't. So cut the melodramatic emo crap and use some logic:

Trouble is most logic used to explain religion and the like is belief based. It defies most scientific logic, and that's what most seem to be after.

The notions of Heaven and Hell just reflect the primitive notion of binary morality: this is GOOD, GOOD things are GOOD, you do GOOD you go to GOOD place.

Can you prove the above from your previous post? That's just another belief, isn't it?

1. There is no evidence of any sort of afterlife
2. The notion of Heaven/Hell represents a very basic form of moral duality obviously necessary for societies that lacked he sort of enforcement abilities we have today
3. Societies can function without religion

1. Nothing concrete, no. But many believe it and do have a right to their own beliefs and opinions.
2. Maybe so, BUT it can't hurt in terms of people believing that their sins will be punished. Regardless of whether or not their sins will be punished. It's more proactive in that the fear may stop some from committing the crime.
3. That's debatable. For most if not all societies do involve religion to a huge extent. There's also that religious teachings often seem to become seen as morally correct and have entered our legal systems.

I'm pretty sure in Soviet Russia and the People's Republic of China, people don't wantonly murder each other any more than they do in the good 'ol Christian USA.

I'm pretty sure there would be a difference regardless. Different attitudes, different social taboos. Even without religion I believe the numbers would be quite different. I won't even pretend to know which are better or worse though.

[Draken Benvolaid]

...dude... seriously? Here's something that keeps people from doing bad shit: THE POLICE. Society is constructed in such a way that bad shit gets punished and morality is spoon-fed to us.

And, by the way, it's called burden of proof. If you claim something exists, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove so, not on me to prove it doesn't. So cut the melodramatic emo crap and use some logic:

1. There is no evidence of any sort of afterlife
2. The notion of Heaven/Hell represents a very basic form of moral duality obviously necessary for societies that lacked the sort of enforcement abilities we have today
3. Societies can function without religion

I've never claimed either in this thread. You claimed it doesn't, as an individual, prove it so, which is impossible.

1. There is neither proof of or not of. It's an unknown unknown.
It confirmes that neither can be said as true. "Heaven or hell exists or doesn't exist" A question that cannot be answered.

2. Representation is what you make of it. It can be either good or evil, depending on how you hold it. Those representing Heaven or Hell is just people, imperfect, fallible, and at times corrupt humans. I trust neither the Vatican or mass murderers.

3. Yes, they can. But denying the practice just shows human fears of what they may hold. Constricting human thought and free will in a totalitarianism won't bring a better nation.

I'm pretty sure in Soviet Russia and the People's Republic of China, people don't wantonly murder each other any more than they do in the good 'ol Christian USA.

That's fear of Punishment. Fears are what keeps many people in line, but never controls them forever. Going to jail, keeps many from committing crimes; being put to death, keeps many from killing others; and so on.

In no way does it mean that they were correct.





Giving people a foundation for their own morals, should they be taken away?

[Gillamobster]

You guys have clearly demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of sociology, literary and theological history, and the nature of logic and proof. Way to go.

[Jin]

You guys have clearly demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of sociology, literary and theological history, and the nature of logic and proof. Way to go.

And yet you yourself have demonstrated anti-philosophicalism and an utterly simplistic mind. There have been really dumb posts throughout this thread, but yours just make me laugh.

If you're trying to use logic to argue a discussion on the afterlife, you have no idea what you're doing and should restrict yourself to debates of science. Leave philosophy to those who can think with both sides of their brain.

[Gillamobster]

And yet you yourself have demonstrated anti-philosophicalism and an utterly simplistic mind. There have been really dumb posts throughout this thread, but yours just make me laugh.

If you're trying to use logic to argue a discussion on the afterlife, you have no idea what you're doing and should restrict yourself to debates of science. Leave philosophy to those who can think with both sides of their brain.

Wow, you sure are teh smart. Way to goes budday! I wasn't even aware "anti-philosopucalism" was a word, but then again you're way smarter than me.

Anyway, I'm not going to bother discussing this because:
1. All things must be reasoned rationally
2. If you refuse to discuss something rationally and choose to regress to emotional argument then you're adding nothing to the body of human discourse.

Essentially: you feel there is an afterlife, so what? Has human knowledge been enriched by your arbitrary opinion? No it hasn't. But no one here is willing to believe me since you're all in Middle School, so I won't even bother any more.

[Chez Daja]

Wow, I guess during my holiday, I missed the fact that this was necroposted back to life. Seriously, make a new thread or something. It gets tiring seeing the same old crap around.

Especially when it's the same religious threads re-posted constantly.

This is closed now. It's two years old.