Black; White; Gray and Supermassives

[Sinister]

Please keep in mind that I don't need lectures here, I pay for those from institutions I trust and your word has no merit without citation. Also we want to keep things simple so the majority of us can keep up. What I want is layman speculation on the possibilities and threats Black holes present and the implications. Think of this thread as kind of an idiot-think-tank. I'm not a Quantum Physicist nor an Astrologist...I'm a curious Horticulturist who has dabbled in both.

There are a plethora a theories about these phenomenon with few recognized facts, I simply want mixing of the ideas. What we know, simply put in laymens terms, is this: Black holes are existing universal phenomenon that consist of a silhouette called an event horizon, a gravitational singularity of matter that exerts untold influence on matter and energy. We also have reason to suspect that at the center of our galaxy near Sagittarius A there exists what we've termed a Supermassive black hole. A beast that has about 4.31 million solar masses compressed in a 44 million km diameter sphere. Most likely what is holding this galaxy together and or what holds other galaxies together as well.

My questions are...what are the implications? Do you believe that these holes go anywhere? The idea of a White Hole suggests there is, in another universe, reverse black holes spewing out chopped up matter and energy. Do you buy that? The quantum mechanics of black holes suggest they should shoot out radiation, yet Stephen Hawking claims the amount the put out should never vary no matter the conditions of what it consumes. Some people even believe it's hypothetically possible to navigate a black hole and spill out the other side, provided you avoid the singularity. Are these portals? Are they simply recollecting matter? Does the theory of white holes explain the ever expanding Universe? What could possibly be beyond spacetime?

Forgive the laymen-like ignorance of this thread, but discuss...

-Sin

[che]

I try to look at it logically, based on the facts. If I somehow were on a spacecraft that was sucked into the black hole, if matter is really that much more dense there, I tend to think of it like if I were to go too deep in the ocean. My body would be too fragile to survive the compression and I would die. However, the matter that consists of me would still exist and it would still be there.

I'm not quite sure if there is a end to the black hole. It's hard for me to believe or even think that there is another side. I try to imagine putting a sheet of paper into a ball and crushing it so it gets smaller. It's going to distort the paper and change it's physical appearance, but it's not going to create a warp hole to a new place.

That being said, I also don't like to rule things out and understand that there might be flaws in my logic. It's hard for me to develop thoughts on such an issue I don't really know much about other than what I've read based on the research we can do at this moment. I am subject to change my theory when more information is gathered.

[Rhaps]

I always loved thinking on this when I was younger, it wasn't until recently I began thinking on it again.

I always had the thought that Black holes are connected to White holes somewhere in the universe, and what could be more amazing to discover than a place where matter compressed below the subatomic level is then allowed to re-expand past the void in which it was compressed?

I tried looking into things that could withstand great pressure, but nothing can survive what our theory of Black holes is currently, or possibly never. We'll sooner learn to travel at 99.9% the speed of light before we get to a black hole and see if it can be navigated.

Concerning the Event Horizon, that is something I never looked into. I always saw Black/White holes as portals, like Worm holes. The only thing I really know is from Sin's post above and the rumor that if it were possible, sitting on the Horizon would make you see time go in reverse. Forgive my silly notions and bringing up ridiculous rumors that make me sound ignorant, but is there any truth behind it?

[Alpha]

I... really have not looked into black holes at all. But the whole concept seems utterly confusing and I would suggest near-impossible (or just impossible) to understand.

They're confusing from the outset. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to view them in terms of a concept of time, but when did they begin? Did they just pop up? I remember learning about stars when I was in Year 12 (second-to-last year of high school) and remember that the very largest stars, upon reaching the end of their years, became supernovae. The very biggest of the biggest also 'explode', but a black hole forms in the centre. The gravity is so dense, apparently, that light cannot escape -- thus we can only see them when they are in front of something that does emit light, and either the black hole, the object behind it, or both, moves.

So, as far as I understand, they are a collapsed star, with a density beyond comprehension. I don't see why this would mean they 'go anywhere'. But if they begin, do they end? How does a black hole end?

EDIT: And I also follow the 'trash compaction' logic of Sin, below.

[Sinister]

The theory is, and don't get me wrong, there are a lot of them. But here it is, as I understand it. Our Universe currently exists in something called spacetime. Think of spacetime as the solution of a planar equation.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...planes.svg.png

The solution of spacetime would be the points at which the planes of space and time intersect. This area has all the immenities, depth, width, length, matter and time. Somehow, a black hole literally distorts all of these. According to the theory of relativity, in a black hole's event horizon and at lightspeed, time is distorted, objects actually change sizes and density.

Consider holding a piece of paper taut between your two hands. If a ballbearing is dropped on that piece of paper, it distorts around it.

This is as far as we go, the theories are a dime a dozen at this point. Some people think that the singularity is so intense it's torn a hole from this universe dependent on spacetime to someplace else. Some people see all the matter and energy the things consume and logically think that it has to come out somewhere. Some people think it's just a dead end gravity well that acts like a trash compactor. Some people think it's the universe begining to recollect into one huge singularity so that it can reinact the big bang like a cycle. The truth is no one has a clue what these things are/do. And why would anyone, we're literally observing the effects of these things(not the actual phenomenon but their effects) from millions of lightyears away.

So that pretty much cements anything said in the thread, even supposed fact, as pretty much intense speculative reasoning.

I personally don't see black holes as anything but large massive trash compactors. I don't think matter entering the black hole GOES anywhere. We've seen there are black holes of different sizes, so it makes more sense to me that they keep adding matter to their singularity and grow larger and larger. Although, a part of me raised on science fiction and fantasy desperately wishes that a black hole actually went somewhere that humans could go. But I just don't believe that. Oh well.


-Sin

[Heartless Angel]

I've heard a theory that gravity is the weakest of the four major forces in our universe because it "leaks" into another universe. I've also heard theories that black holes are where these leaks occur. Personally I don't believe it, because it's nothing but speculation. We can't really "see" a black hole, or what goes on inside of it, as light can't escape it. Not to mention, since they're lightyears away we can't see what they're doing NOW anyways. For all we know, they could randomly explode into new stars for no apparent reason at some point (not saying I believe this is what happens); we wouldnt see this occur until a few million years after it happened.

Personally, as awesome as it would be to think they lead to other universes or even otehr places in our own, I think they're just astronimically large dense masses of space garbage, growing ever larger and more dense as more garbage is pulled into it. And even IF they led somewhere, we could never pass through one, as Chad pointed out, the gravity woud kill us all before we ever saw the inside of the thing.

[OnOneRyder]

A good way to look at a black hole is to imagine it as a super condensed star, because that is what they are essentially. A super compact area of matter which SHOULD be one of the brightest things in the visible spectrum but having an escape velocity greater than the speed of light they appear as voids.

Hopefully m16 can interject some knowledge on the subject because he's quite knowledgeable. Is it reasonable to assume some of the neutron stars we see in the sky are simply borderline black holes? They just don't have the extra gravitational force to raise that escape velocity just a little bit more?

And HA yes, gravitational force is the weakest of the 4. Think of it this way... you have two balls made of iron. Because they are physical objects, there is gravity between them, even though it's unbelievable small amounts there is some there. Now compare it to the forces at work inside the atoms which keep the atoms together, and actually create the element. Try simply pulling a chunk of that iron off....and even more difficult to do IF it were possible pull the atoms themselves apart by hand. The quantum forces at work are billions of times stronger

[Heartless Angel]

I knew gravity was the weakest of the 4 forces, it was theory of why I found interesting. I can't remmeber who came up with it, but the theory was that gravity 'leaked' into other universes.

[OnOneRyder]

Yea, it was also proposed that dark matter be gravitational affects from the regular matter of parallel universes as well.

Kind of a shame to admit it, but I'm almost certain I'll never know all the things I wonder about before I die....and I very much doubt mankind will even survive long enough to figure out half of them.

[Sinister]

I imagine the more we find out, the more at risk we are of our own poor judgement. Mankind will be self-limiting just as much as a petri-dish of bacteria is.

I admit I'd like to know, but it's a vanity to presuppose that I should. Besides, I know enough. It's more fun to speculate than it is to know.

-Sin

[Heartless Angel]

It's more fun to speculate than it is to know.

Eh, I kinda agree, but speculating on the same subject for too long does get boring. When we finally KNOW, then we can come up with even MORE impossible questions to contemplate lol.