Abortion: Your Views...

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Translation: You're okay with abortion.

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Thanks for pointing out what I already said for everyone else.

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Rape victims? What makes them special? The mother is carrying a child that she doesn't want. Whether the child is the result of rape or the result of irresponsible sexual habits, it's a child that she doesn't want. Is it alright for a mother to kill her unborn child if she doesn't want it, or is it not?

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What makes them special? Well. Define special. Just since when did a rapist take the time to slip a condom on before raping the poor girl, then before he heads off, says kindly "Don't forget the contraception!" Carelessness is your own fault. Being raped is not.

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Cases where the birth will kill the mother are extremely rare

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Said it yourself. Rare; but still liable to happen.

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And if it's not wrong to kill an unborn baby with a "deformity", when does it become wrong? When the child is born, and doctors see the true extent of the "deformity" -- or realize that there is one, something they couldn't see before birth? Or is it alright to wait a few years to give the kid a chance and see how it does, then cut it into pieces and suck it through a vacuum?

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I suppose I should have maybe elaborated a tad more... A deformity that would affect the child's life substantially. And as you say, "When the child is born", that is way beyond the point of abortion. S/he is safe from abortion then, and if s/he was to be cut up and sucked into a vacuum then that (in the eyes of the Law) is murder. Abortion is murder to some, others don't think so as much. I'm one of those people.

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Life-threatening diseases? Like I said, either an unborn child is a human life or it isn't. If it isn't, you don't need "certain circumstances" -- if it is, it's wrong, period. Even if you wanted to place limits on it, they would have to be universal. If it's alright to kill an unborn child because they might have a life-threatening disease, then it's alright to kill a five-year-old child because they have a life-threatening disease. Or a fifteen-year-old. Or a fifty-year-old.

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It is different being born with it, rather than living to your examples of fifteen and fifty then recieving it. The child being born with it wouldn't even live to the majority of his/her life.

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What else you got ... when the child cannot be supported by the parents? That doesn't narrow it down at all. First, there's such a thing as adoption -- you know, where a biological parent doesn't have to slaughter their own child, but doesn't have to raise it either. Second, the people who have the most irresponsible sex are the people with the lowest incomes.

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Yes there is adoption. If only every child got adopted, eh? I did originally only put that point in for lack of a better one, but you've addressed it now anyway. I don't need the means to defend this; I agree with you. To your second point, maybe in your country, though I needn't see a point arguing this after agreeing.

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All in all, out of the millions of abortions performed in America every year, about one-and-a-half percent are done for health reasons or for rape. That means that 98.5% of abortions are done for convenience.

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Then that goes to show how many people don't care about abortion and think they can simply abort a baby after not giving a crap during sex. I've already said I was against people being careless and having an abortion, you gave me a fact that I was supporting and already knew.

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Originally Posted by RagnaToad

You're giving these circumstances, but then you say it's alright when it's an accident. That pretty much means it's allowed in any situation, according to you. And did you forget about adoption?

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I did reply to this before... But before I noticed I was busy replying to someone, so I couldn't edit.
You misunderstand me; I did not say it is okay as an accident.

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Originally Posted by Muramasa89

Thanks for pointing out what I already said for everyone else.

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I pointed it out and made it simpler -- you wanted to hide your true beliefs with "under certain circumstances", whereas I simply pointed out that it's a yes-or-no question.

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What makes them special? Well. Define special. Just since when did a rapist take the time to slip a condom on before raping the poor girl, then before he heads off, says kindly "Don't forget the contraception!" Carelessness is your own fault. Being raped is not.

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And now it matters whose "fault" it was? An unwanted pregnancy is an unwanted pregnancy. It's not the fault of the child, but you're still arguing for the mother's "right" to kill the child anyway.

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Said it yourself. Rare; but still liable to happen.

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Not in this day and age in most of the civilized world. But way to dodge that argument.

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I suppose I should have maybe elaborated a tad more... A deformity that would affect the child's life substantially.

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By whose standards? What about people who later become "deformed", by losing a limb or something -- should we be able to kill them too? After all, it would affect their life substantially, and we just don't want to put the poor guy through that.

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And as you say, "When the child is born", that is way beyond the point of abortion. S/he is safe from abortion then, and if s/he was to be cut up and sucked into a vacuum then that (in the eyes of the Law) is murder.

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Depends on the whim of the mother.

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It is different being born with it, rather than living to your examples of fifteen and fifty then receiving it. The child being born with it wouldn't even live to the majority of his/her life.

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And once again, you are making a judgment that because you don't think they'd have a long or good life, it should be alright to kill them.

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Yes there is adoption. If only every child got adopted, eh?

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True, there needs to be some reform with the adoption system. It's such a hassle in the United States that it's easier to adopt a child from another country than it is to adopt from American parents. But that doesn't mean that because it's hard to adopt, we should slaughter children if we think they might not grow up in a home that we might consider "good".

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Then that goes to show how many people don't care about abortion and think they can simply abort a baby after not giving a crap during sex. I've already said I was against people being careless and having an abortion, you gave me a fact that I was supporting and already knew.

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You made a post supporting abortion and listing your "special circumstances" where you'd find it acceptable -- not pointing out that the vast, vast majority of cases fall way, way outside your "special circumstances".

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You misunderstand me; I did not say it is okay as an accident.

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You: "If you get an Abortion for the pregnancy being an accident, then I condone it."

Condone: 1. to disregard or overlook (something illegal, objectionable, or the like).
2. to give tacit approval to
3. to pardon or forgive (an offense); excuse.

The word you were looking for was probably condemn.

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Originally Posted by Muramasa89

I'm okay with Abortion. As long as it is under certain circumstances, those being such as:

The child will be born with deformities.

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I just want to point this out.

I don't feel abortion is ever justified, but I also see it as a religious issue, and I don't wish others to impose beliefs on me, so I don't impose mine on others.

I do make one small allowance, however.

How is being born with supposed 'deformities' somehow a licence to prevent/end a life? Should we engage in eugenics in pursuit of the master race? I forgot what happened last time.

I have a severely disabled younger brother, so I suppose this is personal. But there is nothing greater than life, and there are no exceptions to being allowed to experience it. My brother can't talk, hold a pen, or understand anything. But he can be happy, and he can make others happy. Or is that not enough?

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Originally Posted by Freya

You see, this is a complicated topic and I can't say what's wrong or right.
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I agree with you that this is a complicated topic..I am pro-abortion when the situation calls for it, I dont think we should be able to tell a person that they can or cannot get an abortion...Like you stated Freya if a woman was raped abortion is okay..I mean it is just my opinion but a person should be able to make the choices they want, I apoligize if I offended you in any way but those are just my feelings...

I think depending on the circumstances of the situation that someone can be in, abortion can/can't be okay. I believe that in a situation where you "accidentally" get pregnant while having sex without any form of protection and want an abortion then you're an idiot. Because:

1) Use a condom.
2) Use birth control.
3) If you're that worried about getting pregnant, then just sow your vagina shut and step away from the peen.

Now we all know condoms and birth control aren't always 100% effective in preventing pregnancy, but the chances of getting pregnant are certainly lessened then using nothing at all while having sex.

But if a woman is in a situation where she is raped and it turns out that she is pregnant from something like that then I think it would be okay to get an abortion. Think about it. It's traumatizing enough to go through something horrendous like that but to have a child with someone that forced themselves on you would be very damaging. Not only on the woman but on the child itself.

In a religious aspect abortion may be completely taboo, but I think it ultimately comes down to the situation itself.

I don't believe in the "well if it were this case then..." How can one say that? I get that rape is traumatic on the mother. How is that the baby's fault? Did the baby ask for the mother to get raped? I think not. I would never dream of expecting a woman who was raped to keep the child but there is adoption. So what makes the life of the baby who was a product of rape any less important than one that was conceived with willing sex?

As for birth control, it does fail. TRUST ME, I know this first hand! My darling baby girl is the product of failed birth control. I even had the type of birth control that isn't a pill that you take every day (thus having greater room for error). I had the ring that you leave for 3 weeks then take out for one, and it was supposed to prevent conception 24/7.

Well, considering I have a daughter now would suffice to say how well THAT worked. I contemplated aborting her. I'm glad I didn't. She's amazing. However, you do not miss what you did not know. Had I aborted her then life would have gone on as per normal.

It is awful to say, I know. I hate the thought that I contemplated it. However, I had a loving, supportive guy who when I told I was pregnant swore he'd be there for me every step of the way. He has, and then some. Not all women are lucky like that.

I don't think that it is a yes or no answer. I think every case is individual. I also think that unless you've been in the situation to either deal with a pregnancy or contemplate an abortion then you really don't know what you'd do. I never thought I'd contemplate it. EVER. However once I was faced with a pregnancy yes it did cross my mind.

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Originally Posted by Tiffany

So what makes the life of the baby who was a product of rape any less important than one that was conceived with willing sex?

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You know, I think you've just convinced me.

Abortion is still a choice made by the parents, however, and regardless of whether one sees it in absolute terms, this choice can only be made by the parents.

Abortion i belive is murder. In some cases, such as rape, or life threatening pregnancy, then i think it is alright.

On the other hand, if someone is pregnant at a young age, say, 16, in any other way than rape, it should not be legal. they made the choice, and it has consequences.

And Alpha, i COMPLETLEY AGREE. killing something because of "deformities" is terrible. on a religious standpoint, i still think that it would classify as murder, but the way the catholic(my religion) church advertises it as 100% anti-god, im actually a bit annoyed. just pull it under murder. Well, thats what most catholics i know do anyway, so its really no big thing.

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Originally Posted by ViveLaVive

On the other hand, if someone is pregnant at a young age, say, 16, in any other way than rape, it should not be legal. they made the choice, and it has consequences.

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Shouldn't it be the other way around? I remember hearing about a young girl who was about twelve who got pregnant and they were having a hard time trying to figure out what to do. As the girl was so young, her body was not developed enough to bare a child.

I'm still not convinced it's okay to have an abortion if you were raped.

In cases of rape, the foetus is no more or less important than any other. However, it has a capacity to cause its mother mental harm just by existing, without the mother suffering from any underlying issues. A foetus created that way will be a constant reminder of one of the most traumatic experiences a woman can ever have, for at least nine months, supposing she chooses adoption. The child will have no father anyway, what if she can't support it on her own? She didn't want or choose to be pregnant, and has no reason to be ready for such a massive upheavel. Let rape victims keep their rights.

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Originally Posted by Govinda

In cases of rape, the foetus is no more or less important than any other. However, it has a capacity to cause its mother mental harm just by existing, without the mother suffering from any underlying issues. A foetus created that way will be a constant reminder of one of the most traumatic experiences a woman can ever have, for at least nine months, supposing she chooses adoption. The child will have no father anyway, what if she can't support it on her own? She didn't want or choose to be pregnant, and has no reason to be ready for such a massive upheavel. Let rape victims keep their rights.

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I totally understand what you are trying to say. However, someone doesn't need to be a blood relation to be a father. So, yes... the child could have a father. Be it from adoption or otherwise.

Also, having been pregnant myself... 9 months isn't a long time in the spectrum of life. I didn't want to be pregnant either. I didn't 'choose' it per se, because we weren't trying. That doesn't mean that my daughter isn't any less loved.

Granted, I didn't get raped. However, I have BEEN raped. I just don't think that a baby's life is forfeit because of circumstances beyond its control. I don't deny that it would be hard on the mother. Hell, my pregnancy was hard on ME and I didn't have a situation like that. I just don't see how 9 months somehow trumps 60-70 potential years of life.

I am pro choice though. If a woman decided to abort a baby that is her life and her consequences to deal with. I just don't agree with the whole "All life is precious except for the babies conceived through rape. Sorry kids, your life isn't as important. Better luck next time."

I see what you, and the others, are saying Tiffany. I would probably agree; I'm in the boat that could never have an abortion personally. I'd feel like I'd killed a little living bit of me. I just don't like the idea of a world where the freedom to choose doesn't exist, is all, where poor women in third world countries who can't afford to feed the children they already have don't have the option, you know?

That is but one legitimate response, Govinda. As has been argued earlier, keeping a child produced through rape may be a sign of victory over the rapist, that the woman's life was not successfully destroyed.

If one considers abortion akin to murder, then the answer is clear. Rape is a crime, but so is murder.

Don't know if my opinion counts since I'm so young but. I don't really agree with abortion and I don't think I would ever get one. The only time I see abortion as maybe an "OK" is if someone was raped and is younger then 15 or just raped. But... there is always having the kid if you were raped and just put it up for adoption. I know a lot of people who say the same thing I do. There are always more choices then abortion and I don't like the idea of it at all. If I ever got raped or just pregnant and didn't want to raise the kid I would put it up for adoption. Someone who wants a baby could take it and give it a good life. I know abortion is a choice and I have nothing against people that do it when rape is involved but it would never be my choice.

I would never get an abortion myself. Even with an unwanted pregnancy.

But I'm pro-choice, and I believe it's every persons right to make their own choices without interference.

My view on abortion varies with the circumstances. I think it's alright, if and only if...

• Pregancy occured due to faulty contraception, like a condom that ripped, or a pill that didn't work. If a cuple DID take the responsibity to try and avoid the pregnancy, shit luck shouldn't leave them stuck with a baby they didn't want.
• Pregnancy occured due to rape. I mean really, who the hell would want to deliver a rapist's child?
• The pregnancy puts the mother at risk for any reason.

There are probably other situations in which I'd say it's acceptable, but those are the ones that come to mind.

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Originally Posted by Heartless Angel

My view on abortion varies with the circumstances. I think it's alright, if and only if...

• Pregancy occured due to faulty contraception, like a condom that ripped, or a pill that didn't work. If a cuple DID take the responsibity to try and avoid the pregnancy, shit luck shouldn't leave them stuck with a baby they didn't want.
• Pregnancy occured due to rape. I mean really, who the hell would want to deliver a rapist's child?
• The pregnancy puts the mother at risk for any reason.

There are probably other situations in which I'd say it's acceptable, but those are the ones that come to mind.

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Absolutely brilliant post Hearttless, it sums it up quite nicely I agree with these points to the full stop although I thought I might add one more point if I may

Financial difficulties- For example whether it be unexpected or accidental I think finance plays a large role in family's now days with having children take a family with four or so kids already and they accidentally get pregnant and they know they just can't afford it I believe they sould have the choice to have an abortion or not.

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Originally Posted by Heartless Angel

My view on abortion varies with the circumstances. I think it's alright, if and only if...

• Pregancy occured due to faulty contraception, like a condom that ripped, or a pill that didn't work. If a cuple DID take the responsibity to try and avoid the pregnancy, shit luck shouldn't leave them stuck with a baby they didn't want.
• Pregnancy occured due to rape. I mean really, who the hell would want to deliver a rapist's child?
• The pregnancy puts the mother at risk for any reason.

There are probably other situations in which I'd say it's acceptable, but those are the ones that come to mind.

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The only point I would like to object to this one is the first bullet on your list. But then again to everyone is intitled to their opinion and I am not saying you are wrong by anymeans.

There are only 2 ways to be safe about not getting someone pregnant, that would to be to abstain from having sex or permanant sterilization. That's it, any other form of birth control being used has a human factor involved with it and is not a guarenteed form of birth control.

Knowing this the people that use contraceptives and what not should also know that there is a chance that even the most perfect condom has a less then 100% chance of success. Basicly what I am getting at here is the people having sex should know that it is not an absolute preventative for pregnancy so they assume the liability if the female becomes pregnant.

In short, in my opinion and I have said it 100 times, if you are going to have sex get ready to face the conciquances. It is a risk and the people should own up to it if they have an "accident".

Thats another term I don't understand, "an accident". Sex is suppose to be for procreation not recreation so how the hell is it an accident by any means. It is what the human body (or creature) act of mating is suppose to do.

Procreation, recreation, comon man, they rhyme! Now you're just splitting hairs!

No, I get what you're saying. But I more see abortion as a problem when some teenager goes and gets knocked up by being irresponsible, and sees that as a solution to the problem. If someone took the time and put in the effort to stop that from happening, I don't see it as as big of an issue.

The financial thing Rameses said I don't so much agree with, but that's just me. If it's just a financial issue, you can give the kid up for adoption. If it was unexpected due to fauly contraceptive or something, then the other circumstances make up for it, and I'd say it's alright again, but using financial issues as a crutch to make up for irresponsibilty, that I don't totally agree with. There are many situations that could vary wtih financial issues, so in some cases I'd probably say that's good enoguh reason, in others I wouldn't.

If the girl is raped and gets pregnant, go for it
if she brought it upon herself, I wouldn't aggree to it, but he'll it's her body.
If she is too young for kids, she is probably too young for sex
want do you think condoms are for?
No offence is meant with any part of my post.

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Originally Posted by Meier Link

The only point I would like to object to this one is the first bullet on your list. But then again to everyone is intitled to their opinion and I am not saying you are wrong by anymeans.

There are only 2 ways to be safe about not getting someone pregnant, that would to be to abstain from having sex or permanant sterilization. That's it, any other form of birth control being used has a human factor involved with it and is not a guarenteed form of birth control.

Knowing this the people that use contraceptives and what not should also know that there is a chance that even the most perfect condom has a less then 100% chance of success. Basicly what I am getting at here is the people having sex should know that it is not an absolute preventative for pregnancy so they assume the liability if the female becomes pregnant.

In short, in my opinion and I have said it 100 times, if you are going to have sex get ready to face the conciquances. It is a risk and the people should own up to it if they have an "accident".

Thats another term I don't understand, "an accident". Sex is suppose to be for procreation not recreation so how the hell is it an accident by any means. It is what the human body (or creature) act of mating is suppose to do.

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Of course it is meant to be procreation but did you or anyone for that matter have that in mind when the first had sex, no of course not it has its different stages we do it for 'recreation' when we are in our early 20's then procreation late 20's and 30's then of course recreation after that again.

'Accident' purely refers to the fact that precautions were taking while having recreational sex and instead of hitting the 99% protection ratio we got the remaining 1%.

It also depends on what frame of mind you believe or where brought up with, teh best form of contraception is of course as you stated abstinence and there is nothing wrong with that especially if you are religious for example and believe no sex before marriage.

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The financial thing Rameses said I don't so much agree with, but that's just me. If it's just a financial issue, you can give the kid up for adoption. If it was unexpected due to fauly contraceptive or something, then the other circumstances make up for it, and I'd say it's alright again, but using financial issues as a crutch to make up for irresponsibilty, that I don't totally agree with. There are many situations that could vary wtih financial issues, so in some cases I'd probably say that's good enoguh reason, in others I wouldn't.

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Yeah but you may not understand for a woman having this baby grow in you for 9 months and then putting it up for adoption is extremely difficult that is why it is better off aborting in the early stage, I have many a conversation with woman and 99% say they could never give up a child for adoption after having it with them for 9 months its just their nature, and that works in the way for surrogacy as well.

Ok for example if you buy a car or something similar and you put 9 months of extremely hard labour into crafting it and taking care of it etc you don't just want to give it away at the end, now believe me that example is no where near the same concept of pregnancy.

I do not agree with abortion in any situation, you cannot kill a child based on the fact that you do not want him. Adoption is always an option. Yes, if someone gets rape, its terrible, no woman should go through that. The baby didn't choose how he was conceived, you cannot blame the kid for that. And yes, I mean baby, not Fetus, Fetus has a way of cheapening the meaning of what is living inside the woman. Its a living being, not just some lump of tissue. Its also unconstitutional, we ALL have the right to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, who are we to deny a child that? Who made us God to choose life or death for a baby? Let nature take its course!

The constitution grants rights to any US citizen, and anyone born in states is a US citizen accoding to the constitution, unfortunately, prior to birth, that condition is not yet met. And there are plenty of pregancies that endanger the life of the mother, so by your own views, you'd condemn a pregant woman to death because you don't believe she has the right to condemn the baby.

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Originally Posted by Heartless Angel

The constitution grants rights to any US citizen, and anyone born in states is a US citizen accoding to the constitution, unfortunately, prior to birth, that condition is not yet met.

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I hope you weren't respond to the "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" comment, seeing as that's nowhere in the Constitution. Maybe you're thinking of the Declaration of Independence, which does not dictate that certain rights only belong to people who were born in a certain country, or even born at all. Hence, "all men are created equal" not mentioning anything about birth, and "endowed by their Creator" not mentioning government.

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And there are plenty of pregancies that endanger the life of the mother, so by your own views, you'd condemn a pregant woman to death because you don't believe she has the right to condemn the baby.

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So you're trying to use less than half a percent of cases to allow the other 98%, which are only for convenience? You're supporting a person's right to brutally murder a child, and you are trying to play the morality card?

It's a pretty black-and-white issue. If the belief is that an unborn child is a person, then it is wrong to kill them -- because you don't like them, because they hurt you, because they make you gain weight, because they may cost more money, etc. If it's not a person, then there is absolutely no problem with the murder of any unborn child.

No, i'm actually reffering to the citizenship law that states the conditions for becoming a U.S. citizen, who are the only ones given the rights and protection of the constitution.

To the second; no, I'm trying showing the people who try to use morality as an arguing point, that not all situations have a good moral asnwer, and that situations in which abortion is alright exist, "No, never, it's wrong" is a procrustean solution to the argument.