Club Discussions

[Draken Benvolaid]

The Fighter's Guild is still somewhat active, even though only two members are functioning at the moment.

Just not a lot of fights since I'm not working in the city anymore.
And Celt won't say what fights he's been in lately... for private reasons...


The last posts were just recent, too.

[Victoria]

Uh.. what does that have to do with anything? The last post was in this month. You don't have anything to worry about?

[Rasler]

In response to Andromeda's post, what defines a faction, in context of TFF?

[Furore]

Uh.. what does that have to do with anything? The last post was in this month. You don't have anything to worry about?

I just noticed what he meant. We're not on the approved clubs list for some reason.

And Celt won't say what fights he's been in lately... for private reasons...

Private reasons my ass. I've just been somewhat lazy (and trying to be a little more responsible). Today coincidentally heralded my first fight in bloody ages. Proper one anyways. For more on this wonderful tale, consult the last entry of that pointless thread I call my journal.

[Andromeda]

In response to Andromeda's post, what defines a faction, in context of TFF?

The TFF Dark Side and Masters are factions. Any factions are allowed to exist until they become inactive at which point they will promptly be deleted and never allowed to exist again. Factions are any club that sole purpose is going to be challenging and fighting other clubs. There can be RP and RPB clubs where you are just having fun friendly roleplaying sessions or tournaments. But light and dark side groups are prohibited at this point for being factional. Aside from the TFF Dark Side and Masters further groups would be the Soldiers of the Moderator and the TFF Light Side.

[LocoColt04]

4. Factions will no longer be tolerated nor allowed to be made. -NEW-

We will eventually need to allow some form of new "dark side" type of club.

Since the Brotherhood of Doom and the Soldiers of the Moderate are both defunct, that just leaves a light and neutral faction.

Just for the record.

[Victoria]

Uh....

Hmm.......

No.

Andro and I don't want that kind of drama happening ever again. It's so much of a pain. >_>;

Unless you override said rule as Admin... then No. XD

[LocoColt04]

Then what's the point of having the others?

The intention was ALWAYS to have a replacement for whichever faction lost that war. That was part of the agreement from the start; the losing faction was to be disbanded and could be recreated under different circumstances, with new leaders, etc.

Also, that agreement was THEIRS, not mine. I just enforced it.

[Rasler]

I only learned of the BoD/Masters drama a week or two after it was all over, and only have the general jist of it.

However, if I remember correctly, the drama was over the circumstances surrounding and affecting the results, coupled with a certain agreement that whatever club lost, would be disbanded, or somesuch. The drama, in actuality, was not caused by the mere existence of said club.

I can see both sides, but in the interest of fairness (and NOT admin kissassery), I agree with Loco. If light and neutral are allowed, there should be a negatively aligned group.

Feel free to limit the number of factions to one per alignment, and moderate them to your heart's content, but let's be fair and believe in second chances.

[Victoria]

Actually, I was talking about a different drama, that has affected Andromeda greatly in his dislike for factions.

The BOD/Masters thing has nothing to do with it. And yes, that was part of their agreement, but hey, the BOD left. That's not our problem. >_>;

[Draken Benvolaid]

Toph, would it be alright if I make a separate thread for Club to Club discussions?
I mean, this thread is for Club Registrations, not really for discussions... Our posts seem out of place here, is all.

It wouldn't be a club, but a place for discussions about the clubs, their history, their futures, and what should and shouldn't be allowed as clubs. Questions, discussions and such.

Could you sticky it if it's alright?
I'll await for your approval.

[Victoria]

This thread is soley for comments and inquiries about clubs and their futures and whatnot. As the Registration thread is only for Registrations. This is pretty much for everything else.

[Andromeda]

The others will cease to exist once their activity ceases, Loco. I'm not going to forcibly close down the existing clubs. However, they are only living on their own activity at this point. I will be closing them when they reach the inactivity date and not allowing anymore clubs of that type to be opened. I will especially not allow a new TFF Dark Side of any form. I and others have bent the rules too much for them and I'm not going to allow that anymore.

[Draken Benvolaid]

The others will cease to exist once their activity ceases, Loco. I'm not going to forcibly close down the existing clubs. However, they are only living on their own activity at this point. I will be closing them when they reach the inactivity date and not allowing anymore clubs of that type to be opened. I will especially not allow a new TFF Dark Side of any form. I and others have bent the rules too much for them and I'm not going to allow that anymore.

But doesn't that kinda kill group and club based RPs and RPBs?
Without a style that helps each side, it'll become drab and worthless.

New RPers and RPBers won't learn much without a basis to follow.


Yes, they are troublesome without some form of order from the staff members, but not necessarily bad.

Is it for the better or for the easier?

[T.G. Oskar]

So...um, the idea is that as long as we keep working, that'll be fine, right?

I would like to rephrase a bit of the opinion I posted on the SoI thread, something that I expect may aid our cause and change a bit Andro's mind.

I do recall the main problem was that the BoD always had a trouble with the Moderators, because of their usual activities. Gory descriptions of deaths, explicit acts, foul language and the like. The BoD and the Mods were always at odds at it, and because they insisted so much, they bent the rules in their favor, but only as long as they kept that in their thread and didn't expanded that on the rest of the forum.

The second point was the sudden spark of factions. Mostly, when the Soldiers of the Moderate were dwindling, the Masters had recently appeared, and all of a sudden factions poured here and there. Phoenix Knights, for example, whose sole purpose was to fight. The existence of multiple clubs aiming for sole RPB combat perhaps worked a bit against us. So far, before the rule was established, the faction boom dwindled.

The War was the last drop. I must say, the battles are so far some of the finest examples of RPB I have ever seen, something that I still do not consider myself capable of making. And I have made some RPBs, with lengths of dialogue, but never I have seen such good work. It's a shame that the BoD cried foul after Toph's decision, but that's their problem. They were often too proud for their own good. I do consider that inclined the balance towards faction intolerance, the fact that eventually they claimed TFF would be a boring place without them. So far, none of this has happened, although it has lost a bit of its "color". In that I differ with Toph.

So far, while it hasn't been easy, I do attempt to follow the TFF rules and urge all my members to follow them as well. Granted, I am lax at the rulekeeping, I gotta admit, but I try. I also check very well the other posts of the applicants (as much of the last 500 posts as I can, not very easy, but fortunately the system allows for easy checking). I am not a perfect being; sometimes I might do something a mod or other may consider a bit off the rules, but I strive to keep them. Also, my club has the inner discussions theme as well, one that it surfaces every now and then, and it allows for some respectful discussing, or so far what I can see.

I do consider a bit unfair that the factions are so harshly treated because of primarily the acts of a faction long disbanded. In each incarnation, we've sought to abide by the rules, and prevent rough-ins with mods. Granted, at times we sought to have some "special treatment", I will not lie to that. But the mods kindly pointed out that would not be fair, and we've aboded to that ruling. Mostly, we wanted a bit of unique treatment in the ID forum, and we've been denied that, to which so far we have respected said ruling. But, despite that act of respect for the rules, and the determinations, it seems we are not well-looked.

I must say, losing the Dark faction has made the forum lose a bit of its uniqueness. There's no club dedicated to any Final Fantasy game as of now, and those who have tried have succumbed. Most clubs die after a few weeks, when the inactivity kicks in. So far, the most successful clubs are the Nationality clubs, and one or two more clubs, as it can be stated on the amount of posts they have. The factions are the third kind of club that hits that many posts.

RP and RPB may not need factions, but it allows them to impart an unique color. The pride of defending the faction's honor, the slight restrictions to powers that cause the RPers to think outside their boxes and find unique ways to work with such circumstances. The color of siding with a moral alignment, or to a common cause. That kind of color, while so far rarely present, is something we would like to work with. Try to work that with respect, something that the main offender rarely had (and we had some laughs at it, they were quite smart in their insults, but aside from the "WTH", we paid little attention), but give some color to the RPB area, and why not, even to the RP area. Granted, I would like to have more attention from my companions, but I cannot force them to constantly log in: it's something I must respect if I want to teach respect. Those are good things about factions: they give members a group to whom affiliate with, with a common idea behind. As well, I don't know if this exists outside (the Masters may be a rather good example of a faction outside the TFF), but the color and definition of a faction may have very well spawned within TFF. If we work around, perhaps this may become a key point in making this forum even more unique.

Just thinking, of course.

Now, I do know Cesar, having belonged to a faction, has some sympathy to our cause. I do not write this to him. Nor to Toph, who knows that despite our troubles, we do seek to remain a close-knit group. I must be honest, I do am writing this to soften a bit Andro's heart about this matter. We can try as much to remain active, but the looming idea of perpetual disbanding leaves a bad taste in the mouth. I do not want to have to forcefully see my club wither and die without giving at least the fight to allow a change. Earn a good rep with the Mods and restore the good points of a faction. Making these kinds of clubs something of a tradition that may very well become a product other forums may see and perhaps imitate, seeing it as a good thing to them (and also upping our rep as a wonderful forum) This also goes to the people who might have been offended by any of the factions, perhaps without realizing the results.

Perhaps we can allow a more respectful Dark side, and complete the Faction Triad. Perhaps we can work with merely Neutral and Light factions. Perhaps we can work the idea of fighting for other causes (an anime-based club that urges their members to work within the rules of an anime environment). Perhaps we can work to aid the RP and RPB forums, which is one of the main reasons a faction tends to exist. Perhaps we can make this work, but we cannot if the last word is "there will be no factions because we wanna prevent another Brotherhood". I know there are perhaps other reasons why factions aren't tolerated, but the one that springs into mind is "one faction tarnished the others". I don't want to believe that's the only reason why we are being treated so harshly (remain alive or we guillotine you...to me, that's harsh treatment, I dunno you)

[Andromeda]

The Phoenix Knights I have no issues with, they are not a faction. They fight within themselves and battle in a ranking system that their club follows. They do not look to fight other clubs. I'm not banning RP and RPB clubs, I just banning the Dark and Light clubs from ever existing again and any club that's intent is to fight other clubs. You can still create clubs with style and personalities. Surely you are creative people enough to come up with something less vague than Dark and Light clubs. We had plenty groups in the past with different styles. You can have one that is based solely on technology or sci-fi group. There are plenty of other areas to explore that are more specific and will work better.

And TFF Dark Side are not the only offenders. There are other factions that have been problematic in the past as well that soured things. You can make a RPB club as much as you like and we have those, but you have to keep to yourself. If you want to fight someone its not under your club's banner its an individual against another individual.

And as many people that know me, I never forget when trust is betrayed. When that happens there it is going to take time and nothing else to wear away. No amount of words will change my mind. And given my feelings on this matter its going to be a very long time before I consider changing my opinion on this matter. Until then the rule stays and will remain inflexible.

[Zardoch]

You know, if we're wishing to revive much of anything at TFF, there's one important task that we as a community need to help improve. That's the problem with role-playing and RPBs in general as we all know they aren't very active besides a few new people trying to begin their career like every newb has. I think if we want to expand ourselves, our factions, and our overall activity a great way to do that would be to open a role-playing academy, a place where we can gather everyone from every faction and help mold our current generation of role-players into the kind of people we know and respect. That's what we need to be focusing on because as this originally was a role-playing site, we need to bring the determination to teach what we know to beginners. It's pretty much a relationship of parent to child and helping them create a greater future.

Now, of course, I wouldn't be surprised if this was mentioned before or tried before, but I'm certain in these times we need something like this. For so long, people like me have just been waiting and waiting for things to get better, yet forgetting that things don't get better if you don't do anything.

What I would suggest is creating a club filled with volunteer teachers and then creating a forum called the Role-play Academy, thus starting a school of sorts with exercises and regular one on one teacher-student role-plays. We could then unite everyone already here to go one-step further and create a TFF world similar to Final Fantasy and host events to create one large storyline. In addition, instead of someone jumping into the RP or RPB forum creating many characters, we could have everyone build just one character as well with the interaction and experiences from role-playing in this world.

This is a time where we shouldn't be dividing people into other factions or guilds in order to find that conflict that increases activity, but working together to do something greater than a war or battle that only last a few months. We need a renaissance era that brings everyone together.

[Rasler]

Choices that affect the masses are to be made by the administration. (And no, this administration has no requirement to bend to the will of the users.) Andromeda is a sane, sensible leader who has made this decision based on experience and accumulated knowledge. Andromeda is following one of the major rules of life: try not to repeat mistakes.

Admittedly, factions can lead to undesirable results, such as polarization, rule breaking/bending, and dissatisfaction. Andromeda has encountered this in the past and does not want to do it again, a decision I can understand and respect.

Unfortunately, a single large group probably wouldn't work either. After all, factions exist due to preferable population size and shared interests. An uber-group would be too large and unwieldy.

However, I am an overly forgiving person, and personally believe it to be in the community's best interest to have their factions, albeit in a controlled form.

[Victoria]

We had a writing/RPing academy called....Writer's Academy. It died because no one was interested in it. >_>;

[Andromeda]

Shadow is correct in that we had a group that was supposed to do just that Vicious. And actually TFF was not originally a role-playing forum unless you are saying it is a role-playing forum because it is a FF forum. It is FF first, role-playing was just something that is a side venture.

We have tried to do things that help out the new RPers and RPBers, but it requires people that are dedicate to the cause to keep going. Unfortunately, those sorts of people are few and far between. I can't say you could get a forum, but by all means you can attempt another club to achieve that very purpose.

I wonder if I should attempt crazyhorse again...

[Zardoch]

I remember that. Well, maybe if we gather EVERYONE who can RP on the site to revive that, we might be able to save the idea and push it to greater scale of role-playing. I honestly don't see any other way other than uniting everyone. That's pretty much my point, to simply unite everyone and give some hope that won't be as false.

[T.G. Oskar]

As far as I can see, Andro does agree to improve the condition of the RP forum, and by extension the RPB forum (although that's Cesar's realm)

What Andro does not like is the drama that surfaces from inter-faction conflict, and that's the main problem, so it seems.

Now, I do not advocate very much the idea of such conflict, but if worked properly, then it could be of aid. Think of kayfabe (aka, the storyline in wrestling), where the characters apparently hate each other and the other side, but in real life are close friends. The idea is, what seems to be the source of the problem is that pride overcomes respect. Perhaps factions should drive more into respect than pride.

Factions can work within each other. Despite the bad blood shed within the famous war, the Masters and the BoD set a standard that could not be easily achieved in terms of the current state of RP/RPBing.

What I would suggest is creating a club filled with volunteer teachers and then creating a forum called the Role-play Academy, thus starting a school of sorts with exercises and regular one on one teacher-student role-plays. We could then unite everyone already here to go one-step further and create a TFF world similar to Final Fantasy and host events to create one large storyline. In addition, instead of someone jumping into the RP or RPB forum creating many characters, we could have everyone build just one character as well with the interaction and experiences from role-playing in this world.

This is a very good idea. Very good. I do believe some steps were taken before, and these weren't very successful, though. One thing (personal intake) I often ask of the person I use my faction character with is that if such battle becomes canonical to the story he develops. All battles I have had with my faction character include the tidbits of these battles, shown in physical form and style-wise. But that's just me. I often recommend that, but it's not like anyone is forced to follow my example.

Which is something I find is what may affect your idea, Vicious. Battles are only that, one shot battles which tend to end nowhere. There's no end, no defined end, which may be considered enough to string into a larger set of stories.

One thing I do believe is, the existence of factions causes an interesting point within a storyline. Some may seek to join, some may seek to stop them. Perhaps an agreement within both clubs may cause a particular scuffle in the shared world, and that may be solved by those who aren't affiliated. And that is indeed plenty of material enough for a bunch of storylines.

But...

Such an idea of a shared world, a set of shared rules, and a general agreement has never been encouraged in here. Here, the RPs are wide and varied, and the idea of one may not convince the rest. RPBs are meant to be one-shot, and having no correlation, no sense of character development at all.

Another thing that piqued my interest...

You can still create clubs with style and personalities. Surely you are creative people enough to come up with something less vague than Dark and Light clubs. We had plenty groups in the past with different styles.

I thank you for considering us creative. But, lemme work a bit on that:

Light and Darkness are often the theme of a wide variety of stories. Not the most unique or original ones, but the ones that always find acceptance within the readers. It's a struggle that's almost as ancient as man itself. It's only natural that, when making a series of clubs, Light and Darkness come into some of the lists, as well as Nationality and Fan-base. And, Light and Darkness isn't that vague. There are many ways to represent Light and Darkness, and not all of them are Light=Good and Dark=Evil. But, that's the general assumption, and one assumption that will always find acceptance.

There are other sets of themes, such as Nature vs. Technology, Law vs. Chaos, and the like. Each of these clubs can become a faction, just as easily, with some work. Or not. But, when there are two ideas that normally take conflict within each other, then it is often natural that these ideas may find some way to vent their conflict. I mean, there's a club for Old-Skoolers. How much until one of these Nu-Skoolers makes a club and openly defies the Old-Skool club? Perhaps tomorrow, perhaps in a long time, perhaps never as the mods will see the ideas behind it.

Taking sides is something that no amount of moderation will ever be capable of preventing. It's something natural. What it can be done, is either prevent this or work respect into the differences.

And, Andro, do not take this as offensive, but just saying "Not allowed" is childish, in my opinion. I do consider you don't feel the same in that matter, but I see it that way because I see respect as the proper way to solve things, not intolerance. Perhaps you don;t see this as intolerance, or perhaps the only working way, but while you are preventing the source of the problem, you are closing your doors into a lot of possible things that could be done.

I agree a lot with Vicious' ideas of making an unified system and world (yet I do think factions can work together and go besides the petty insulting), but I see that "every man for himself" or "just some clubs that bicker between themselves" does not give the same impact than a faction, if we are to work into a world unique of the TFFers, for the TFFers.

[Zardoch]

What Andro does not like is the drama that surfaces from inter-faction conflict, and that's the main problem, so it seems.

I agree with her as well. I can expect rivalries from factions, but when it becomes ridiculous drama, things need to be toned down. Drama is bad for business.

Which is something I find is what may affect your idea, Vicious. Battles are only that, one shot battles which tend to end nowhere. There's no end, no defined end, which may be considered enough to string into a larger set of stories.

I understand this type of thinking by many people. A lot of role-players just find RPBs pointless one-shot events. In a way, they're right, but I honestly know very well that if I hadn't learned to RPB over my career, I wouldn't have come this far. RPBs have helped me evolve in character creation and my overall creativity with making a character that's outside the typical standards of a lawful giddy knight or some mary-sue Aeris wannabe. That and RPBs help one be better at that confliction within RPs and helps things progress. It's just as important as learning how to role-play.

But...

Such an idea of a shared world, a set of shared rules, and a general agreement has never been encouraged in here. Here, the RPs are wide and varied, and the idea of one may not convince the rest. RPBs are meant to be one-shot, and having no correlation, no sense of character development at all.

Well, my suggestion of a TFF world is more based on something that gives freedom to everyone within a shared yet large world without condensing it into something boring. It would be a place that would encourage creativity and character development.

[Andromeda]

You can call me whatever you want. I've heard worse and been called worse. It is not going to change my mind. I'm not bending to any amount of pressure or voices that I get trying to convince me that I should give this a second chance. Second chances have been given, too many in fact. That is why I've said there is not going to be anymore. Factions had their day and many chances. RP and RPB like we did in the old days. It worked for us then and it will work for us now.

The longest club that exists on this forum is in fact the TFF Royalty a club that has existed since before even I was a member here which means that its been around for 6 plus years. The club has changed members, but not its ways. It is still the same old ways club that it was when it was started. They one thing Roleplay. That is what other clubs that RP and RPB did. They made threads and roleplayed. They battled each other for status in their clubs to better themselves. Each club was separate and did not interfere with another club. All of that faction/clan stuff was done in a separate forum somewhere else. The clubs forum is not the forum for this type of activity.

The club forums primary purpose is a fandom for people of liked interests to talk about the same thing. This is generally the same show or game. It allowed people to socialize with others and debate topics. That remains what the primary purpose of what the clubs should be about. In technicality the roleplaying clubs do not really meet that criteria since all activity is driven to other areas and about the only thing to debate is the RP or RPB that is occurring. But they have existed.

[Furore]

Why not just say that factions are fine so long as people stick to the rules? No flaming or anything regardless of how evil a club is. If it promotes activity through RPBs it could be healthy for TFF.

Hell, maybe even up the punishments for those who flame in a faction just to get the point across... Ultimately I have no real power in this (and regardless of what happens I respect Andromeda's ability to stay firm with decisions), but I do personally think something could happen to make everyone happy if it's thought through. Ever way though as it's not like that many people RPB seriously no more... (I see it as just a bit of fun myself. )

My two cents.

[LocoColt04]

As far as I can see, Andro does agree to improve the condition of the RP forum, and by extension the RPB forum (although that's Cesar's realm)

I'm actually working on that right now.

Hell, maybe even up the punishments for those who flame in a faction just to get the point across...

Yeah, we tried that. Most of those in the BoD tended not to care... until they landed two out of three strikes, and then they'd wait for a warning to wear off before acting up again. Others showed blatant disrespect and got themselves banned anyway.

If Andro's going to allow the recreation of a new dark faction, there will have to be a VERY strict zero tolerance rule in place. Looking at it that way, wouldn't that severely limit the majority of things any "good" dark side would want to discuss? Gore, death, blood, rape, etcetera... most of it would have to be cut out altogether. We'd have to redefine dark.

Personally, I still think we should have a third faction to round out the triad, but we'll see where this goes with what we've already got, first. Admittedly, both the SoI and TM have been practically dead since February...

[Anomaly]

You see, the funny thing here is I'm not sure the fourth rule is even relevant...or enforceable. A faction can exist if its a club or not...in fact a club could exist devoted to, oh, origami for the sake of argument, who only allowed members of a certain alignment to join. Then they could just happen to take an interest in creating conflict with a club who's only declared interest is in motor cross and proceed to fuss and feud amongst themselves.

In fact, as I previously mentioned, it wouldn't even have to go that far as a faction could exist and NOT BE OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED. Take away the club thread and all people will do is put a bit of text or a little banner in their sig about 'proud member of the tribe of darkness/light/monkey's - Want to join? Ask me how!'

The fourth rule neither truly denies anything nor does it fix the problem associated 'faction drama' as its been so delightfully referred to. All it really does it place limitations on a forum activity that is designed to allow like minded individuals to group together closely and participate in/discuss the things that interest them the most.

I'm not saying I do not understand the reasoning behind this declaration, nor am I saying I do not sympathize with those that have to deal with the more colorful individuals that factions tend to attract. All I'm saying is it ends up as a whole lot of fuss over nothing...and something that holds the potential to spark only further drama.

Admittedly, both the SoI and TM have been practically dead since February...

The result of a bit of required down time, and the lack of a viable antagonist. We can turn that around by taking on the role of the antagonist, but it didn't seem it was the right time for such a dramatic shift. This issue could change that thinking among the Circle, however. But then again, it may simply end with a decision to move elsewhere.

[Victoria]

Club Mecha and Wish House are at the 2 month deadline to be closed for inactivity. If you wish to keep the club, please make a post wishing so, otherwise they will eventually be deleted.

[Victoria]

Pet Zone and Castle Crashers are way beyond deadline and are now closed.
Will be deleted in a few days unless someone wants to keep them alive somehow.

Post here if you want to keep them around.

[Victoria]

Nintendo Worshippers and Wish House were closed and move to archive for being way past the deadline.

Catz Club and Comedy Club were closed due to being over the 2 month deadline.