Beta Testing Feedback and Feature Suggestions

[Andromeda]

Alright, aside from just PMing anything you want. I want this thread to be an open discussion for any problems and ways we can improve the system as it evolves in order to make the most of it. For now as I said it's basic and just making use of what we have, but in time we'll be trying to create our own mods to create a more robust system.

Features Planned:
Club Icons
Postbits Club Listings
User CP Club List
Mini Icons for Club Links

Being Considered:
Club Leader Permissions


Details
Club Icons - You know those crystal icons next to all forums? I want to replace those for the Club Forums with personalized images that you select for your group. This way you have a more unique feel and provides an identity, this'll be like what you have in Social Groups, but it'll probably be smaller. I'll have to test out image sizes, but this will actually be the first thing I'm going to be testing out since I know how to do it. I just need to talk to Merlin about a solution for storing the images in a place that safe.

Postbits Club Listings - I spoke about this in the other thread. This would be like how inventory is currently done. You would be able to display the clubs you're a part of in your postbit or somewhere on your post. The location is not determined yet, but it would be a link to the forum. I'd also like it to be selectable like the inventory, where you have display up to five clubs or whatever number we set.

User CP Club List - This would simply replace what we have with social groups that appear on your User CP. We'd probably mirror it pretty close and you'd be able to have a larger icon there. And all of your clubs would be listed there or linked out if the list becomes too long.

Mini Icon for Club Links - This is pretty minor and sort of under the Postbits feature. But it's not an immediate requirement. I'm figuring something the size of what you see arcade awards and it'd be like that. It could even replace the links and just be a little icon looking like the inventory and fit into a much smaller space.

Club Leader Permsissions - This is something I was originally planning on, but Loco convinced me otherwise. So currently Club Leaders are leaders by name, but have no ability to delete or manage their own forums like they do in social groups. Part of this will be figuring out what permissions I'd want to give out, but it would be a separate group and would not classify you as a mod or staff member. It'd be a unique title as Club Leader, similar to how we had Clan Leaders. Depending on things we may even see about making a little title for it like we do for mods. But this is the most uncertain element right now. What I'm thinking is deleting threads and posts. You'll never have warning abilities, just forum maintenance permissions. Warnings will still be handled by the club staff.


Let me know your thoughts and any ideas you have for how we can make this better. For now nothing is out of the realms of possibilities. So just post your ideas and we'll see if it is possible.

And one last thing, for anyone that ends up getting a members only club. I'm looking to test out a Join Request feature that vB has built in for usergroups. But I need people to test it out. So send me a PM if you'd be willing to do a little trial and error for me. It may make things a little easier for joining clubs.

Thanks!

[Meier Link]

Club Leader Permsissions - This is something I was originally planning on, but Loco convinced me otherwise. So currently Club Leaders are leaders by name, but have no ability to delete or manage their own forums like they do in social groups. Part of this will be figuring out what permissions I'd want to give out, but it would be a separate group and would not classify you as a mod or staff member. It'd be a unique title as Club Leader, similar to how we had Clan Leaders. Depending on things we may even see about making a little title for it like we do for mods. But this is the most uncertain element right now. What I'm thinking is deleting threads and posts. You'll never have warning abilities, just forum maintenance permissions. Warnings will still be handled by the club staff.

Just a fast thought on this issue. Don't we have a report button for a reason? If a club leader feels a post should be deleted all they have to do is report it and it will go directly to the mods of this forum. In turn I think the Club leaders opinions should matter and their wishes be delt with in a timely manner.

[Andromeda]

Oh definitely, the Club Leader's opinion will hold weight. If they want it deleted or an action taken more than likely we'll do it, I can't say always because there's probably cases where we won't. But that is how things will be working currently. The Club Staff will manage all of the maintenance that the Club Leaders request.

The reason I was planning on doing it was because they are the leader so they should have some personal control over the things in their club. Club threads they didn't really have control because it was just a thread, but in the social groups they had some amount of control. I think all they could do was delete things, I don't think they had editing permissions.

So as I said it's something that's in consideration. This is an open discussion so I'll listen to all points. Personally, I'd like to give them a little control, because I want to think we can trust people to be responsible. In the end all they would be granted are limited maintenance permissions like soft deleting, which if it is abused or something is only soft deleted and I can easily undelete something that was soft deleted. Anything else would we would certainly have to weigh the risks, like editing and what not. There's not a lot of maintenance permissions to give out so I think the risk is pretty limited.

But I won't make a decision right now.

[Merlin]

For those of you interested in why Private Forums are not allowed, I will provide you with the list of reasons. Collectively, the staff has been at this for over 10 years. I believe we've compiled quite a list of reasons:

• Having open clubs allows people to view them before deciding if they wish to join or not. If it is hidden, a person honestly has no way of knowing what he or she is signing up for. You cannot see the topics going on or even how active it is.
• Private forums are not displayed in the list to people who cannot access them, they will not know the club even exists. Yes, there will be a list, but the visual queue of seeing it in the forums is far more noticeable than a list in a topic.
• Having a group/club private reduces it's overall visibility on the site to basically nothing, which lowers activity on subjects that would otherwise be discussed by people who could see the forum and join.
• Duplication of clubs would be a high possibility, as there could be a private Naruto club and an open Naruto club, for example. This adds more confusion than is necessary.
• Private forums are harder to manage by the staff, as they would be invisible to the majority of them.
• There is a large subset of people who believe the staff should not be allowed to access a private forum unless they are in that group/club. As it is the staff's job to keep tabs on things, regardless of if they run the forum or not, they can report the issue to the person who is in charge of it. More eyes, more coverage.
• There is a large subset of people who believe that private forums fall outside the reach of the rules. This is emphasized by the last belief that mods should not be allowed in a private forum. An open forum cannot get away with such behavior, as everyone can see your dirty laundry. Open forums discourage miscreant behavior.
• There is a subset of people who become elitist because of the above two beliefs and the overall privacy such a forum provides. They believe that they are somehow better because they have their own private clique that the rest of the forum members can't see.

That covers most if not all of the points on why non-staff forums are no longer allowed to be private. Overall, the goal is to boost activity on TFF and snuff out the idea of hiding in the shadows of secrecy. TFF history has shown that nothing good has came out of having private non-staff forums.

[Alpha]

I have a question for people who claim that SOLDIER (let's be honest, this is really what this is about) was intended to promote forum activity (or whatever).

If that was really what the purpose was (and not a club for elites (*cough*), or a place to push the boundaries of rules and get away with it), then why can't it be public and have the same function?

[Andromeda]

I was under the impression that the original SOLDIER was just part of the old defunct Clan Wars or whichever RP system it was a part of along with EBG. I was not aware of its intention to promote forum activity until a few days ago. I'm not sure how a private forum promotes forum activity, but I'm not really going to debate the issue.

I'm really sure to which you're referring to Alpha, when you say this is what it is all about. But if you're referring to the introduction of the Club System I created then it has absolutely zero to do with SOLDIER or EBG. Until I became an Admin a couple of weeks ago I thought SOLDIER and EBG was dead totally. As a S-Mod I was unable to see SOLDIER's existence and all I could see of EBG was a dead forum that they left behind as buried themselves deeper into an inactive sub-forum of the dead forum which is literally invisible to everyone when viewed from the actual forums regardless of position.

So when I came up with this idea it had nothing to do with them. In fact the original idea wasn't even mine. It was Loco posting in a Social Group. I saw his post and thought to myself that's a great idea. So I expanded on it and filled it presented it to Loco. Loco agreed to the idea though with some modifications to my original layout. And it was given birth there.

In my mind the Social Group was a good start to an idea, but there was a number of issues with it that prevented it from being really successive. The biggest problem was the lack of visibility. Agreeing with Loco, I thought the best way to solve that lack of visibility was pull it back into the forums. The forums is where everyone looks first. So it'll be right there and anyone that searches New Posts or Last Posts in 24 hours will find all of your posts and clubs. Membership of the groups would go up and members would be aware immediately when there were new posts.

The other reason is that it is quite the nightmare for the staff to moderate. It is part of the forum and so it falls under the rules just like every other part of the forums. Unfortunately, it's so invisible at times things go under the radar really easy. Pulled into the forums makes it more manageable for the staff as well.

Those were my reasons for doing this. SOLDIER and EBG ended up becoming secondary issues when I discovered their existence. I don't remember who brought it up first in the staff discussion, but it eventually came to the decision that SOLDIER and EBG would have to be made public at some point and their existence at this point was closer to that of a club than any other part of the forum. So when one thing happened the other happened as well.


As for the topic of private forums. As I said before I'm willing to discuss it if you have some ideas. The current plan is to keep everything public on the forum that isn't staff related. Naturally, the staff can read all of this, but if you have ideas and we come to a suggestion that I believe has merit I'll take it to the staff for consideration. No promises can be made. My original plan had planned for private clubs, they just would have visible to the staff. Which is a point that I'll stick to, the staff must always be able to view a private club if we ever go back on the decision. But as said before being private significantly cuts your visibility down and decreasing the activity that is likely. So there are certainly points to be considered.

I hope that clears some of the air about the intentions of what this is about. Everything I wrote is honest and truthful, if you wish to believe otherwise that's your choice naturally. But this is the truth.

[Alpha]

I'm not questioning your decision, Andromeda. I think you're working very hard to make the fourm a better place and support you 99%. I understood all of your intentions before I asked that question. I do not support private sub-forums.

The question, honestly, is directed at Rocky or anyone who wants to tackle it. Rocky suggested that SOLDIER existed to promote forum activity. That's fantastic... but why does it have to be private? Hence my support of Andromeda's actions. Yay!

EDIT: To be clear (and because I had the presence of mind to check), Rocky didn't say that. Merlin did (I think), in his original response to Rocky's 'Who wants to be in SOLDIER' thread. Simply, I'm asking, what is it about SOLDIER's role that can't be performed just as adequately (or more adequately, if that's possible) when it's public, but with restricted posting rights? All I see this move doing is enhancing accountability.

[Andromeda]

Alright, I wasn't sure to which you were speaking about so I figured I'd cover my bases. ^^; Sorry if I was too defensive. But I guess at the very least me saying makes my intentions clear to those reading.

Thanks for understanding.

[Merlin]

EDIT: To be clear (and because I had the presence of mind to check), Rocky didn't say that. Merlin did (I think), in his original response to Rocky's 'Who wants to be in SOLDIER' thread. Simply, I'm asking, what is it about SOLDIER's role that can't be performed just as adequately (or more adequately, if that's possible) when it's public, but with restricted posting rights? All I see this move doing is enhancing accountability.

I'm not sure what your point is... my original post was deleted because it was wrong. I was caught up in the moment remeniscing over the good things we did... but then all the bad shit came floating back up to the top like a turd that won't flush.

I would be more concerned with what Rocky wrote in his post. It has a lot of shock value, IMHO.

[Dodie16]

Originally Posted by Andromeda
So it'll be right there and anyone that searches New Posts or Last Posts in 24 hours will find all of your posts and clubs.

This isn't anything major (or any of my business really), but I figured I would go ahead and bring something up that I noticed: When I checked the posts in the last 24 hours, the Red Leather Group didn't appear, yet there were posts made within that time frame. I'm just wondering if this is because they selected to be a members-only group, so only the group members would see that a post was made that day? But if that's the case, then SOLDIER shouldn't appear either, and yet it does.

I know there's more important issues at hand to discuss, but I just thought I would mention that.

[Andromeda]

Hmm, that's a little odd. I'm not sure why that is happening, but this thread is totally here for this. It is a beta testing, so I expect there to be issues that pop up. And I do want to address them. So if anything happens that is out of line with what should be happening just let me know.

My guess is that it has to do with the search option. But I'll look into it. Due to my access I can't test most of the stuff that I do, specifically things that restrict posting permissions and whatnot.

EDIT: Yeah, the search option for registered usergroup was off and I think the last 24 hours is a search option. If that doesn't fix it let me know and I'll try to find something else.

And Shadow you're going to see it regardless since you're in the moderator usergroup and I made all sub-forums completely open to the moderators usergroup. So you're going to have different permissions than Dodie.

[Victoria]

I clicked 'Today's Posts' and saw Red Leather on the first page. It was near the bottom, but yeah. "Welcome to the new sector" is what I saw.

[Alpha]

I don't think I expressed myself well, because you've both completely misinterpreted me.

Merlin, I loved your post. Here, and in Rocky's thread. Both the one you deleted and the one you wrote later to replace it. In this thread, I saw myself as just adding a question. The question was in support of you. I asked why there are people/a person defending private sub-forums, especially invisible ones. I don't see the point of them, and I don't see what's wrong with public ones.

Is that any clearer?

[Merlin]

Who knows? Some people like to counter a point just because they can. I gave up long ago trying to figure out why and just roll with it. ^_^ I usually try to figure out counter-points before they are asked, just so I already have the answer ready.