What if we...?

[Che]

If we communicated with people from another planet, would our math be the same? Now, obviously, we could have some methods they don't have, and they us, I'm sure. But would they (if they were more advanced) tell us that we're wrong? Would it be because of their home planet being in a different galaxy (or universe!)?

Would it translate as 1+1=2 (assuming we find out how to translate that into alien?)

[Rocky]

I'd say that the value theory is universal, regardless of language. You can show that there is one sheep and you can add another sheep making two sheep, which virtually anyone can understand and comprehend. I believe that there might be different rules and theories to us (because obviously quantum physics uses different rules than newtonian physics, etc), but those types of theories are based on the concepts of simpler math, which we could relate to with the aliens. It's kinda like how the evolution of language occured. Like back in the day when mankind was young, we probably had one universal language to communicate through. As the human population began to spread out, more languages were created, but some of them sound similar and have words that may sound the same and/or have the same meanings because the languages come from the same "root" language.

Just something to think about while getting blazed.

[Andromeda]

Math/Science is about the only constant in the universe. One ring shaped planet plus one blue-green planet will still be two planets anywhere in the galaxy. Science Fiction usually likes to consider Prime Numbers to be the case of a developed civilization, usually when communicating with other civilizations. Though in Contact they used part math equations as well I think in their code.

Translated into alien our math would be just like their math. Though the question is are they using old math and new math. ^^;

[T.G. Oskar]

The two main differences would be their mathematical operators and their number shapes. Once you translate that, the theorems would be constant. Unless for some reason, they don't believe in theorems.

Arithmetic would be insanely easy. Get a hang on the numbers, on the arithmetical operators (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division), and you got the biggest handle on arithmetic.

Algebra would be much easier, since all you need is to get a hang of whether they work with variables or with something different. Variables are pretty much standard mathematical fare, so it would be no biggie.

Geometry would not be that different either. Perhaps they don't use the degree system, since the degrees are based on our own perception of the planet, but it would be a simple mathematical equation to translate their system into our degrees. It would be like language translation.

Calculus, however, is muddy waters. Derivatives and integrals use two systems (the Newtonian notation, and the more familiar Leibniz notations), so one could get quite confused. Sequences would be mighty easy; series not so much. Once the problem of the notation of integrals and derivatives are found, then it's a measure of how well advanced they are (or we are) on multiple variables (or rather, if they know it but in a simpler/more complex way)

Mnemonics would also be a problem. Quite frankly, don't start with SOHCAHTOA. The slight cheats on common derivatives may also present a problem.

However, in the core concept, you can translate mathematical knowledge pretty easily once you know the numbers and the mathematical operators they use. Once that happens, it's all towards the grounds of logic, and from them, to deep introspection of culture.

Oh...that also depends on their numerical system. Perhaps they don't use a base 10 system like we do; perhaps their planet has something that makes base 8 or base 12 easier. I'd say that's also important to consider.

In non-related terms: this may be my most awesome post ever. Not because of the content, but because it's my one thousand, three hundred and thirty seventh official non-CoD post. Depending on what happens on the CoD, it may or may not remain as such, but so far, it does. Cheers!

[Alpha]

Speaking about smoking grass, maybe there are 'aliens' having a conversation about the exact same thing, at the exact same time (now), and all of our forum roles exist exactly in their parallel universe.

More mind-****ingly, maybe some champion named Alpha is making the same realisation that I am, right now.

They must have a lot of astroturf.

[Rocky]

.....maybe some champion named Alpha....

Please see

They must have a lot of astroturf.

Have a nice day

[Shan'do Spike]

Fair warning: I was a math major in college, so I probably look at math from an extremely different angle, given that the intersection of math that you find in the major and math that you're taught in middle and high school is almost zero.

Mathematics, as it stands, is derived from a few fundamental assumptions (I'll call these postulates from now on). Everything else is completely derived from these postulates. These postulates consist of things like the A = A and other low level assumptions that seem extraordinarily basic. From these postulates, pretty much everything else is derived. These derived things include things as simple and basic as the natural numbers or real numbers and go as complex as vector-valued multi-variable calculus. (It's really beautiful and amazing when you look at it deeply enough).

Which brings me back to the actual question at hand: would aliens understand our mathematics? Without a doubt, they would have different notation and numbers and methods of writing things. They may also have adopted different postulates (a famous one which there is debate about whether we should include is known as the Axiom of Choice: Axiom of choice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). If they had different postulates, well, the conclusions you get can be radically different (consider, for instance, the differences between Euclidean and non-Euclidean Geometry), and our mathematics would probably be completely different from theirs.

However, if they start with the same (or very similar) postulates/axioms, you'd probably find that their mathematical system, at its core (if not its language) would be very very similar to ours.

[Sinister]

Jesus, Saint Joseph and Mary...not Rationalism...here too!? *runs screaming tearing out hair*

How about Shakespeare? Or English... Or we could just download concepts straight from our brains and fart them on buttered scones and shove them down their alien throats. The adjectives...the assumptions. Oh, the possibilities! If they understand the universe in a way incompatible with our nice linear numeric glyphs, I'm sure it's not a problem that elective surgery couldn't fix.

-Sin

[Sean]

Math may (and most likely would be) done in a different number base system than our own base-10 system. For example, you can represent any base10 number in base2 (binary) with only 1s and 0s, or any base10 number in base3 using only 0s 1s and 2s, so on and so forth.

My college algebra teacher last semester theorirzed that we used base10 simply because we have 10 digits on our hands, thus it's easier to count by 10s for us.


Sooo, in short, I think math to an extent may translate, but the base system would more than likely be different, and what we know as the number 10 may be 1010 to them.

[Che]

In the future, can you math-wiz mcgees not have an a geometric orgasm all over your keyboard?

I just want to know. I'm guessing all math done by people on earth, regardless of language/country/culture/etc translates across the board, right? I'm just wondering if *aliens* would (eventually, not RIGHT AWAY, they obviously don't know what the number [or symbol, to them] "1" represents!) agree with our mathematical concepts.

I was in an argument with a friend and we were debating how things began. He says something can't come from nothing, therefor, the universe had to be created (if we assume the big bang theory is correct).

Essentially, if we're wrong about the one thing we can all agree works universally, maybe there is a chance that we really don't know what we're doing, and that we can't just go about "defining" every last thing we see.

Some concepts, like how things began, might just be too much for a human brain to grasp. It could be our limit of imagination?

[Unknown Entity]

I think as far as basic maths go (2+2=4 for the slower ones ;P), I'd say it was the same.

I'm guessing more complicated maths would be one hell of a lot more accurate, but I think it would be easy to translate. How can you count ten sheep from a pen of four? Unless they were pregnant, but I'm not going into that.

[Rydia Lover]

physics could most likely change as i doubt every planet in our universe has the same amount of gravity as earth.

as far as science being a constant, that could also likely change due to differences between our atmosphere and theirs.
not to mention most if not all science based in atrology is based entirely on theory.

[Polk]

Who gives a shit about math when there's so much sweet alien poon out there?

Nevermind, I totally found the answer to my question in this thread.

[Pete]

Polk, what if alien poon is more like trying to fit the round peg in a square hole?

And I was gonna say basically what Rydia said. It's all the same shit, but the constants are different.

Their theorems would have to be pretty much the same, since it's more or less logic. And if you were to tell me that an alien race could potentially land here, more or less mastering space travel and all of the physics and literal rocket science involved, and NOT know that the angles in a triangle add up to 180, or have any clue how to figure out the sides of said triangle, I'd be astonished.

Smoke more spacegrass guys.

[loaf]

A round peg can fit in a square hole Pete, the round just has to be smaller.

[Jin]

Math/Science is about the only constant in the universe.

Not true. Another constant in the universe is the assumption by all scientists and their sympathizers that science is a constant in the universe.

Hegemony does not necessarily equal a universal constant.

[Trodorne]

To be able to break down any language barriers. why not break down everything we know down to its simplistic form. which i mean the periodic table.
everything broken down translates to simple valence electrons like hydrogen has 1 and we show our number 1 the translation will be there to show our math mathematical beginnings.

If we ignore their advancements on their technology and show them how intelligent we are and simplistically destroying the language barrier we as a people could actually evolve to the point where our petty differences on religion, color, and social status will be a thing of the past.

Why would Aliens come to introduce themselves to a barbaric race like the humans. after all we kill and disect anything that isn't human. and we fight so much with ourselves that they would fear for their own lives rather then risk coming to make peace talks.

[Jin]

Why would Aliens come to introduce themselves to a barbaric race like the humans. after all we kill and disect anything that isn't human. and we fight so much with ourselves that they would fear for their own lives rather then risk coming to make peace talks.

Do you have some kind of insider (outsider?) information that suggests aliens are not like humans in this regard or are perhaps even worse?

[Block]

With 1+1=2 as an example I would like to apply a quick real world application.
1+1=2 is simply the concept that you have one of one thing and one of another, so we call that two.
So in essence you have:

this apple. Then someone gives you another apple, now you have two:

So if an alien were to see this process he would have different words for it, or a different way of describing the concept, but they would definitely agree that there is a concept in which you name an amount of one thing or another.

[Jin]

We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.

[loaf]

All hail our new leader of the world Jin.