Problems people are having with TFF.

[Martin]

I'm not entirely sure if this goes here, or perhaps if this thread will serve a purpose whatsoever. But I'm getting disheartened at some of our members leaving (for example Crazy Chocobo's recent departure thread) or becoming disgruntled with TFF as a whole. So I thought I would start a thread where those who are suffering a grievance with the forum could vent their feelings, and therefore if something appears popular then perhaps the staff may take notice and address the issue. I just hope this may help stop the numbers of members, including the long-term folks from deciding to make like a tree.

Please feel free to contribute.

[Victoria]

Another possible thing that you can do, is that if you feel that you have something to contribute to this forum as a whole; and you have been a member of this community for a year or more, please contact Cain Highwind or Lococolt04 for access to the Shinra Corporation forum.

That forum exists for the sole purpose of getting senior member feedback on goings on, or the "backstage" if you will, of forum issues. The new rule sets, for example, is one of the things that was discussed there.

If you feel you are knowledgeable enough to help the community, by all means, join the forum and give your opinions or suggestions of what you would like to see here.

Mostly right now it is just full of Staff members or Ex-Staff members and a few TFF Veterans. I think it is vital that we invite some more new blood into this forum so that way we can see how the newer members of the community think about the forum and if they have anything new they can add.

Honestly, SC is not a ultra elite secret forum in any way. Anyone can have access to it, really. You just have to... ask for it.

Though, honestly, how can you ask for it when non-access members can't even SEE the damn thing?

[Pete]

I completely disagree with that type of forum. It should be all-staff and that's it. By having old staff (myself included) and random one-year "'vet' consultants", you wind up pandering to too many groups and it just becomes a new gen chat of sorts. The staff and staff alone should talk about staff issues. You don't need non-staff in there discussing matters that they really know nothing about, or have no place discussing. I think things should be done the way they've always been done. With a board having as many members as it does, and having only a fraction of the posts in gen chat as it once did (even 7 years ago), I'd say there's a problem. But I'm not even gonna bother with that now.

And the thing is, only members with access to certain forums can see that they have access. It's the way the boards work.

[Victoria]

Dude.. it's not staff issues. The rules concern everyone. We have a staff forum. It's called the mod forum. That's staff-only stuff.

SC is for issues that affect the community and forum as a whole, or did I not say that enough times?

I know where you're going, and I understand it, but you're misunderstanding what SC is all about, and why it was created to begin with. If we kept all the issues as staff only, how will the community have any say in what goes on with issues that affect them?

(Like the rules for instance.)

[Jesus Christ]

I have an issue with how seriously people seem to take themselves and how seriously the forum takes itself, but it's all good really, because it makes it fun to be Jesus.

[Neo Necron]

I completely disagree with that type of forum. It should be all-staff and that's it. By having old staff (myself included) and random one-year "'vet' consultants", you wind up pandering to too many groups and it just becomes a new gen chat of sorts.

Disagreed. I have access to that forum. Yes I am old staff and would consider myself a vet now, but the discussions in there really don't become cliquey in any way. Discussions in there are discussions on forum issues and nothing else. Occasionally they may slip into banter, but not often.

However, I do think we should try to recruit more people in there and get some fresh new ideas from newer members. To be fair, like you say, it is mostly staff, ex-staff and vets who post in there and it needs some younger (that is, young as far as forum membership is concerned) members. It's not limited to mostly staff, ex staff and vets because of any group formation, it's because it hasn't recruited for a good long while.

[LocoColt04]

So, ignoring how Piro/Toph/Sheena/WTFever COMPLETELY derailed the point of this thread within his first post (*cough*warningfortrolling*cough*), let's tend to your topic.

So I thought I would start a thread where those who are suffering a grievance with the forum could vent their feelings, and therefore if something appears popular then perhaps the staff may take notice and address the issue.

Anyone wishing to do this should choose your words carefully.

I'll allow this thread to exist, but if it becomes a bitchfest, it will turn into a flamefest, and I'll be throwing warnings at everyone left and right.

Let's address the issues at hand, but let's not turn it into anything arguable. The last thing any of us want to see is a throwdown between all the people who seem to be arguing with each other through the visitor messages system.

By the way, I should point out that those are also under forum jurisdiction, as are private messages and reputation. All I ask of people is that they be civil.

[Martin]

Anyone wishing to do this should choose your words carefully.

I'll allow this thread to exist, but if it becomes a bitchfest, it will turn into a flamefest, and I'll be throwing warnings at everyone left and right.

Let's address the issues at hand, but let's not turn it into anything arguable. The last thing any of us want to see is a throwdown between all the people who seem to be arguing with each other through the visitor messages system.

I agree, I never intended with the creation of such a topic for it to become a 'bitchfest' and those wishing to post have surely now been suitably warned. I'm just concerned at the level and rate of members new and senior that have left recently, and I hoped that maybe we could find out why. But if it becomes used for an argumentative purpose I would be the first to ask for it's closure. It would go against what I stand for as a start.

I just think that this could act as a go-between is all.

[Victoria]

I was honestly trying to help, because I thought they were similar in ideas/topic, because I figure if people had issues with the forum, they could voice those issues in Shinra to be discussed in greater detail, etc, etc... But hey. Whatever.

Honestly I don't like the Visitor Messages thing much because it kind of reminds me of myspace, and it's harder to moderate. At least all staff members get emails if someone reports those, though.

[Pete]

All I'm saying is that FFGuru has the right idea, in trying to get a town hall style of meeting going, where everything can be discussed out in the open. If you're going to talk about problems, they should be addressed in front of everyone, because it might help others bring up issues or questions.

In that same vein, I think that problems with individuals should be handled individually; with no need for singling people out though the public forum. Use PMs or whatever. I don't know how things work now, but I remember how they did back in the day. I just think that it's adding too much bureaucracy, where in order to make a comment or an issue, you have to ask for permission into Shinra and then file a complaint. I think the old comments and questions forum did just that equally well.

At the same time, I feel that this place is adding too many bells and whistles in order to hide the fact that it's not as active as it used to be. Years ago, there was a fraction of the number of posters we had today, and if you missed say a week of gen chat, you'd be completely lost, and it'd take you the better half of a day to catch up on gen chat threads and the like. Today, we have shitloads of members, and yet gen chat has been pretty stagnant. It's picking up a little bit, but it's not a lot at all. At the same time, by adding all of these other features, you're giving people more options and more customization options, which can be good, but it hurts the overall forum community when nobody is really discussing anything or networking because they're all playing games or doing random things that aren't posting.

Aaaaaaaaand that's my two cents. Don't need a special forum to speak my peace.

[LocoColt04]

If I may take ONE more moment away from the topic at hand...

It appears a lot of you are wondering why I issued a warning for trolling to Sheena, so I'll make part of our private messages public, for the sake of clarification.

Again, more to make a point than anything else. I mean, seriously, break your post down and then look at the rules. I couldn't find a single word in your post that had a direct relation to the topic at hand. You may have made an attempt at helping, but in the process, you hijacked the thread for your own means, even if it was entirely unintentional.

Also, having just updated the rules, I didn't want people to get the idea that staffers were exempt from them. If I had tried to get the thread back onto its topic, and left your post completely alone, it may have called our integrity into question. Consider that, my friend.

More than anything else, it's that final statement which made my decision. And he gets that. It's not like it's some mark on his permanent record or anything. He's not in any real trouble. I gave him the pre-warning, not the full warning.



THAT SAID, let's hit up what Pete and FFGuru have attributed to the topic at hand.


If I may add my own odd number of cents here, I think a lot of activity has reverted into the Visitor Messages, and what sucks about those is that it appears to have turned into an instant messaging service for a lot of you. The trouble with that is pretty obvious, at least to me. When you have a lot of quick messages back and forth, you're not putting as much thought into what you're saying... things can easily be misinterpreted, or tempers can flare in the moment and something may be said which isn't meant to be said. Then the fights break out.

Worse yet, those things are a bitch to moderate, because there can be a hundred remarks on someone's "wall" over the course of an hour. I don't know about you, but I can't keep up with that shit. I have a full time job and a social life to manage.

The point is, rather than posting in threads, a lot of you are all just messaging each other. It kind of defeats the purpose of having a forum.

I really don't like Visitor Messages, but at the same time, I don't want to remove a feature that so many of you utilize. Pete makes a good point. All of these new "bells and whistles," as he put it, really detract from what makes a forum a forum... the threads.

I think we need to find some balance. But, to solve what appears to be one of the larger issues at hand lately, I need all of you to do me a favor.

PLEASE, PUT SOME THOUGHT INTO WHAT YOU SAY. If you're going to utilize Visitor Messages, remember that those too are under forum jurisdiction. You break a rule there, and you're going to get a warning for it.

Don't spam each other. That's annoying as hell. I'm not suggesting that you need to treat them like actual posts, but you shouldn't be obnoxious about it either.



The problem I'm having is that everyone's deciding to leave for reasons that are specifically forum-related. That bugs the hell out of me.

[Victoria]

Yeah, that's kind of my fault there. See, Shinra isn't a complaints forum or comments or anything like that.

It's strictly forum development. So those of you who want to join just to complain about someone, then SC isn't for you.

But anyway, yeah, I think a townhall type of meeting would be pretty good to have so that way we can see who has issues with who, etc, and see if we can get them resolved and things.

I personally don't have issues with anyone. ^^;;

Edit: Cesar posted before i did, and I pretty much agree with him. I really don't like VMs. But I can't do anything about it. And I think that's about it, really. If I have anything else I'm concerned about, I'll edit my post.

[Pete]

Well, even if you did have an issue with someone, you wouldn't bring it up here lol. This is moreso for everyone to just throw out opinions and ideas, in a purely constructive manner. It's not really to out anyone or to bash people for whatever reasons people may have.

Except for Cesar. I hate him because he's so damn good at what he does.

I'm also torn on the whole myspace-ness of this place. Though I'm guilty of using it. I feel that in one sense it's good for keeping in touch and making it easy to reach people. As the same time, I don't really see the need for a facebook style wall or anything. Unless this place is trying to make some move into becoming the next facebook or myspace, then God bless and good luck, but I don't really see it happening. We forget that this place is about Final Fantasy. Y'know, the FF in TFF. Granted that takes a backseat to gen chat for some, myself included, but when the forums themselves are taking a backseat, I dunno, I think thats a little off.

[LocoColt04]

Except for Cesar. I hate him because he's so damn good at what he does.

<3

but when the forums themselves are taking a backseat, I dunno, I think thats a little off.

That's the way I feel about it, too.

[Sarah]

I'm going to attempt to explain what I see as the possible problem for people leaving. I think that there is a constant riff in the community between the old members/staff and the new members. The old members are never satisfied with the post content or how things have changed, and the new members are unhappy with the semi-elitist attitude that the older members and staff sometimes portray (intended or not.) It seems to be the same problem that has been going on since I joined.

I know that personally, for the longest time, just ignored TFF because I was unhappy with what the community had to offer. Intelligence was absent from most posting, as well as playfulness and comradery. It seemed like any attempt I made to respark what caught my attention all those years ago just died.

I'm sure there is so much more to it, but that's the continual problem I've seen.

And please don't turn this into a vet vs. staff vs. members debate. Those have been done again and again and again and have been proven to help nothing. The only way we're going to fix this is to come to a conclusion together. We need to do something to encourage posting and openness, were applicable.

Overall, I know that something has to change. I miss a lot of the members we've lost.

*shrug*

[chocozilla]

I dislike how strict the Mods are :/ I post shortish posts (I cant type anymore without waffling and wasting people's time) and got told I might get a warning because it was spam! I was contributing and all that I wrote was very to the point.

[Unknown Entity]

A lot of the mods don't play fair. They can get away with dicrete flaming, and to be honest, its horrible. Its only one or two mods that do this... *coughs*

When I first started, I was given about 4 warnings in the first 1-2 months. Now, knowing I was a complete noobie, they should have issued verbal warnings.

Now, fair enough, I had no problems with reading the rules - there is no language barrier - but for my first and second offences, I should have got a verbal. In a way, I respect that mod because now I know what I can and can't do, but I'd have been this way with just a verbal if you get what I mean.

...

*sighs* Sometimes, a verbal warning would give the same effect if it wasn't an "offical" warning in the first offences.

Now, there are the rules. The rules are great and everything - I've read them through, and I'm happy - BUT what is being done to make sure that people actually READ them? I think it would be good to put a link to the rules at the top of the page where people apply to join TFF. Right at the top, in capital, bold writting, which no one can miss. make it clear that they need to be read BEFORE the new person has a chance to think up a user name. Its no use putting it at the bottom with a little tick box, because by then, no one will read it.

Well, thats my imput.

EDIT: Oh and another thing!

I like the new VM thing. If the mods aren't happy because its hard to mod, then add this: People can only VM eachother IF they are a contact or friend. This way, if you have any problemo's, then just de-friend/contact them, and be done with it.

I like the VM because spamming in forums can be taken to VM and discussed there. How else can people discuss fast, and with out having a warning slapped in their face? PM? Don't make me laugh - PM takes a while, and VM is fast. I don't care if its too much like MySpace - that shouldn't make a difference: what site its on. its about fast and simple comunnication... without the warnings for spamming... UNLESS a user feels like they are being spammed on, which won't need to be reported seeing as they can control who can VM them!

See mods? You don't have to do ALL the work!

[Pete]

One other thing. Why are there still 15 different threads stickied as important? They're not really that important if nobody's posted in them for months. I can see maybe the member pic index and the rules, but some others should at least be thrown into the vault, or whatever its called

[Fate]

Being a noob myself, I'm gonna go ahead and speak out for all the other noobs. You see, people aren't really fair to us noobs. They treat us differently just because we're new. I'm not saying that it ever happened to me, I mean, people are really nice to me, but I have seen it being an issue with other people. Other more experienced people should be helping us noobs, which a lot of them do, but, other people, instead of helping, instead try to make our time here harder. This can be quite an issue seeing as how when a noob gets insulted, he starts arguing with the other more experienced members. Soon, it leads to flaming and very rude visitor messages and private messages being sent. Once one of them gets so mad, they decide to leave this site. And it wouldn't have happened if not for the argument. And that wouldn't have happened if the more experienced members showed some respect for us noobs. Again, I'm not saying this has happened to me, but I'm sure we are all aware of the Gunslinger issue. I'm talking about stuff like that. That's the only issue I can think of. Sorry in advance if anyone is offended by this post, but it's really just me speaking the truth. This is suppose to be a friendly site, yet people show a lot of disrespect to new people. Also, as many people before me have pointed out, some Mods are being too strict. Please try to solve this. Thank you!

[OceanEyes28]

I dislike general statements like, "The mods aren't fair" and "The mods get away with flaming."

Who exactly are you talking about, and how has the rest of the staff missed it? If you have a problem with one of us or our actions, chances are, we'll be willing to talk to you about it. I will say, though, that sending me angry PMs will not induce any kind of consideration for your feelings on my part. Please speak to us the way you would like us to speak to you.

Those of you who have complained about how strict we are, consider the balance that we have to keep. If we're too lenient, some members will complain. If we're too strict, we're called nazis by other members. I certainly get a lot of post reports, and have to use my own discretion in deciding whether or not to act on that report. I do try to work with members and give them a chance, but sometimes I have to use a pre-warning or an official warning to make it stick.

We've been working on the rules FOR YOU, so that this forum can be a pleasant experience for everybody. But this members vs. staff attitude that has been going on for a while will not be helpful in achieving that goal. We're all guilty of it, I know. So let's work on it.

[Walter Sobchak]

Other more experienced people should be helping us noobs, which a lot of them do, but, other people, instead of helping, instead try to make our time here harder.

What could you possibly need help with? The rules of TFF are pretty similar to most forums, maybe a little stricter. If you manage to create an account here, you have mastered TFF.

But you do have a point about mod favoritism and corruption, if that was what you were making. There are always going to be bad mods that favor some members over others. It is just the way of internet forums. Those mods know who they are and they don't intend to change. Some of them are even awarded with promotions. The best thing to do is just to play by their rules and report any offenses to the administration, although they don't often return messages.

[Maridia]

Wow, people are bitter! I've always been open to complaints and have no problem with them but everything is so generalized. You mods. Well can someone call anyone out by name and step up please? For as long as I've heard either the mods are old and annoying that are strict or they let everyone slip by and need to do their job!...oh wait until we do it and then get bitched for being again too strict. I laugh at all the people who find it as being so power trip even though I could care less about being a mod. Yet nobody is ever satisfied. I've always read pm's and messages and tried to help where I could but you can't please everyone.

This is a good site but if you don't like it then don't come here. I've only had 2 members ever have a problem and I really don't care. That would be Ecks and El Wray to clarify. You can't please everyone in the world and if a marker on their warning guage on a video game site of all places is gonna foul up their moods then they need to get some priorities in check. I'm as far as I can be though I know there's people out there who think everything is a conspiracy or someone is out to get another...but not really. So as usual I'll do my regular job and life will go on, though I'm open to hear what people say it seems people are filled with alot of hot air.

[Martin]

I'm really beginning to regret making this thread.

You know what, if there's such a split between the members and the staff then I don't think this will help one single iota.

I think that someone should just stand up for the members with problems, i.e. PM'ing someone who is willing to act as a go-between, and the staff should do the same maybe. This is getting us nowhere. And I'm sick of it.

I'm willing to act as said go-between if necessary.

[LocoColt04]

I wouldn't be too surprised if some of those blanketed statements are aimed at me.

I may play nice, but when rules are blatantly broken, I can do a lot of emotionless warning and can be somewhat of a machine at times. I don't give out petty warnings for crap reasons because that's just stupid. I'm not a fan of that either. For those of you having issues with the moderators, do what makes sense -- ask them about it. BUT BE POLITE. If you bitch at us, we don't take kindly.

Hell, I playfully slapped Mistress Sheena with a trolling warning in that other thread which I intended to remove until I started getting bitched at by half a dozen people (literally!) for it. That's when I got cold and said "fuck it, it was technically against the rules, and now it stays to prove a point."

I play well with others until I get a lot of unwarranted attitude.



edit:
@FFGuru: No, it's good to see this thread. At least people are getting things out in the open. I don't really want to see anyone start calling names, but if Setzer thinks it's a better idea... well, it better stay civil. That's all I've got on that.

[Walter Sobchak]

I think that someone should just stand up for the members with problems, i.e. PM'ing someone who is willing to act as a go-between, and the staff should do the same maybe.

Like an e-lawyer? I would do it.

And FFGuru, this is a good thread. I have found that if you get it out in the open enough, you can get their attention. Enough sentiment for an issue and the mods can, and have, changed their minds.

[Martin]

edit:
@FFGuru: No, it's good to see this thread. At least people are getting things out in the open. I don't really want to see anyone start calling names, but if Setzer thinks it's a better idea... well, it better stay civil. That's all I've got on that.

Well let's face it, that's exactly what's going to happen isn't it. Far be it from me to claim that clearing the air is not healthy but this is only going to get worse and worse... I don't want to see that.

I don't think this will stay civil. I think we all need a cooling off period to be honest because I can't help feeling there's a lot of tension.

As it goes all I'm trying to do is help.

[Fate]

Like I said form before, I'm sorry if anyone finds something wrong or offensive with my post. It's just that some people here are really starting to be disrespectful(not all of them are staff,you know. A lot of members are being kinda rude, too.) And I will take back my comment on how the staff was being too strict. They have to in order to keep this place maintained. I guess all I'm asking for is for everybody (not just staffs or members) to be more respectful because it gets really ugly when two people have an argument. Again, if you have a problem with this post, feel free to tell me so that I can apologize. That's really all I wanted to add, thanks!

[LocoColt04]

Thief, there's something you've been doing which I noticed and Merlin pointed out as well.

You apologize a lot.

I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, but what I see wrong with this situation is that somehow you've got it stuck in your head that you need to apologize in advance for anything you post because you're so afraid of getting into trouble.

Am I wrong about that?

And if this is true, what made you feel that way?

On top of that, what do YOU think we could do to change that?



I know that a LOT of members will tell other members what to do and what not to "or else the bad old moddies will ban them." I've seen shit like that all over the place and it tears me up. I hate that the staff members no longer have the banners under their name. Now anyone can up and pretend to be in charge, and the newer members won't know who they should and should not listen to when it comes to that type of stuff.

(For your reference, I put up a thread in the Forum Announcements section with a link to the staff page, so you can see who's on the forum staff and who's full of steam.)

[Rocky]

I'm really beginning to regret making this thread.

ehh, its better to get the tension out in the open for everyone to realize and see. It would suck a lot if a bunch of people got fed up with TFF and left for no reason. Thats why we have discussion, to explain our feelings in correct manners so we can get our points across in a mature way. Because of the confrontation and exposure to the concern of some of the people at hand, we will be better off as a community in the long run.

You know what, if there's such a split between the members and the staff then I don't think this will help one single iota.

split? maybe I missed something, but I never felt a rift between any of the staff towards the members.. When I returned to TFF, it was within the hour that Lococolt helped me recover my account information. The mods like Cesar, Sheena, Oceaneyes, and all the others are easily some of the most approachable people I have ever met. Whether you need some help with a problem or if you're just feel like chatting away, I have yet to see any of them make me feel uncomfortable about approaching them with anything. Because of their nature, thats probably why they got to the positions that they are in now. I think most people forget that the mods and the members are on the same side of the situation, and I think that both parties want what is best for the community.

I think that someone should just stand up for the members with problems, i.e. PM'ing someone who is willing to act as a go-between, and the staff should do the same maybe.

The way I see it, if you have a problem with someone, think to yourself, and ask "Now, what is this person doing to ME that is making such a conflict? Is it something that I can fix within ME, or will I have to bring it up with he/she?" If the problem is still affecting you in a negative way, then go ahead and tell them what your deal is with them PRIVATELY. Make an honest effort at trying to get it resolved. If the problem still persists, then inform a staff member about the situation and see what he/she thinks. If you feel that the problem is still unresolved, then contact another staff member and inform them that you tried to take care of it but the problem is still unresolved. Now, after you have gone through all of that and you still have a problem with another staff member, ask yourself, "self, is this problem really that big of a deal? Does this problem occur with that person, or does this problem lay within ME?" After that, I don't know what to tell you, except that you probably are making the problem bigger than it needs to be.

Anyways, I am extremely hungry, so I'll check the status of this at a later time. pz.

[Andromeda]

If things get out of hand someone will close the thread promptly. If it is not Loco it'll be one of the GC mods or myself probably. But as long as things are orderly then there should not be any problems.

The staff has dealt with these issues a lot in the past. We have done a lot to make changes to such issues and complaints. We downsized the staff significantly to weed out mods that were not doing their jobs or for whatever reason needed to be let go. We've worked to make the rules better. I know we've gone through numerous revisions to them.

I know that we can be super crazy with warnings and hand them out left and right, but some restraint is generally required. I know I have a iron fist on pet pev topics in the specific areas that I monitor. So I'll be strict if you cross the line. Though in handing out warnings I probably give out the least. I usually try to reign in the whole attack the idiot newb that happens frequently. Naturally, this is all behind the scene out of public view. So all you have is my word to go on. But I definitely do see the quick to jump that happens with something goes wrong. When I can I try to stand up for them and be judged fairly. I try to stand up for the "little man" as it were, but I am human and get moody sometimes.

But I also know that I'm very opinioned and stubborn. When I believe I'm right or this is the way it should be I'll be a stone wall about it. It'll sometimes be the most random thing too. I'm also minimumalist when it comes to the forums here. I hate fat on the forums, so I'll usually have a very negative and extreme view for a solution. I care about the core of the forums more than anything else.

Well I guess you know me a little better. Anyway, the long story short of it all. There is probably always going to be that divide between new and old. I was on that other side of the wall one time. We all were. The only thing that gets you through it is patience and being smart about posting. Eventually, you'll be part of that old group that does not get along and play nice with the new people. Its because you see them as acting stupid and immature. They are not posting well or being thoughtful. They are putting threads in the wrong place and they are spamming up your FF thread. The ones that stick it out learn how the adapt to the style we have here and become part of the community. Once you been around long enough you know what to do and not to do, from mistakes or whatever it is to get you there. Things get better for you the longer you stay.

That said, I know that is not really a solution. That is basically saying tough it up and learn from your mistakes and you'll eventually be part of the elite, as it were. But there is not easy solution. Everyone here is a human being with feelings and thoughts. On the internet people can let go of some of the society accepted manners of acting because it is all anonymous. It is unfortunately human to mock those that you think are doing things wrong or being stupid. I won't say it is right, it is wrong to do it. And I certainly try to remove as much humanity from myself as I can, such as to be called a machine sometimes (but that is neither here nor there). I try to treat people as fairly as I can and I try to impress that on others, especially the staff.

Well I rambled long enough. There is always going to be people that don't like the moderators for being strict. We usually just ignore that as best as possible and just do the job we were asked. The rest is a difficult task indeed. I know we had the mentorship thing for newbies back in the day. I forget what happened to it. If you want to revive that and find people that are good members to look up to. Then that can help improve some of the newbieness that happens. We have things trying to raise the bar of RPing in the forums. I don't see why we can't bring back the mentoring. It won't fix the divide, but it might build a bridge if nothing else.