Make the right choices and be safe.

[OceanEyes28]

I think what people are misunderstanding is the intention behind this movement to stop saying things like "don't wear that" and instead saying, "don't rape." It's not so much that we think we can convince a rapist of anything. It's changing the culture that makes women and men afraid to report their rapists because authorities/friends/family won't believe them or will ask questions about what they did to deserve it. So many rapes are never reported, because the survivor thinks, "What's the point?" And who could blame them? When a country laments over the tarnished reputations of rapists rather than the well being of the survivor, what are we supposed to think?

Recent example
Steubenville High School rape case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

During the course of the delinquent verdict on March 17, 2013, CNN's Poppy Harlow stated that it was "Incredibly difficult, even for an outsider like me, to watch what happened as these two young men that had such promising futures, star football players, very good students, literally watched as they believed their lives fell apart...when that sentence came down, [Ma'lik] collapsed in the arms of his attorney...He said to him, 'My life is over. No one is going to want me now.'"

Nevermind the young woman who went through sexual assault, had it filmed, was humiliated, and is now BLAMED for her rapists being convicted of rape.

If a survivor doesn't do everything exactly right, according to society's standards for a proper rape victim, she (or he) has very little hope of getting any kind of conviction for her attacker(s), and very little hope of being taken seriously. Has she had sex before? Bad news. Has she had a one night stand that she consented to before? Well OBVIOUSLY she'll consent to ALL sex so CAN she EVEN be raped? Does she go out drinking with her friends? Does she go out drinking with MEN? MUST MEAN SHE WANTS TO GET ****ED I GUESS. Does she wear something that makes her feel sexy? Because it makes her feel like she looks good as hell, and she has a right to feel that way without thereby consenting to any and all sexual encounters with whoever wants a piece? WHAT A SLUT. Did she dare to walk somewhere (even just to her car) alone at night, like any other goddamned adult might like to be able to do? TEMPTING FATE, REALLY. Is she overweight? WHO WOULD RAPE HER? Is he a man? HE SHOULD FEEL LUCKY HE GOT LAID BECAUSE MEN LOVE ALL SEX RIGHT?

A survivor of sexual assault has been through enough. They don't need to hear all the ways THEY could have stopped it from happening. They are ashamed and humiliated in the worst possible way, completely vulnerable, and the response to that should never be "well what were you wearing and were you drunk or flirting with him?" It should be "He/she was wrong to rape you, and it is not your fault."

I'm in the camp of requiring "enthusiastic consent." You should know without a doubt that the person you're having sex with wants to be having sex with you. None of this "well you didn't explicitly say 'NO.'" People are awkward and scared, and not always as strong or powerful in a dangerous situation as we'd like them to be. Or sometimes they're blackout drunk. Or drugged. Or handicapped. Or children.

I was trying to avoid jumping into this, but I felt like I needed to share that distinction. It's a society that lets rapists get away with impunity because we interrogate the victim first. It's one that can have a group of young men standing around saying things like "Look how drunk she is, I'm gonna give it to her so good" without one of those young men saying, "Yo, man, that's ****ed up. She's a person." It's one that can stomach casual conversations about how much of a "****ing slut" someone is just because of what she's wearing. There's so much hate going around toward women and men who are just trying to be themselves like everyone else. We hate so hard on these people and then feel sorry for the rapists who get caught. I mean unless they're the crazy ****nuts who lock people in their basements, but GOD FORBID it's a handsome college student. Because the idea of telling that handsome student not to rape is SO RIDICULOUS, it must have been something the victim did to tease him and tempt him.

I hope I haven't wasted my time.

[SuperSabin]

There is actually more than one factor that should be considered when these kinds of issues occur. It is true that we need to encourage the crime commiters to stop this sort of action and take a look at the damage they are doing to both the person and themselves, but it can also be a clothing issue. It does have an effect on men when they see women wearing revealing clothing. Of course that isn't necessarily every reason why there are a lot of targeted women out there, but it can potentially mark women as easy targets if the rapists so choose to commit the crime.

I think people should look into why the rapists do what they do instead of just telling them they shouldn't rape women, here are my thoughts on possible cases women are targeted:

#1. Drunkenness can be an issue, since the person isn't in control of himself at that point, he'll do things that he doesn't realize he is doing and may end up harassing the victim.

#2. Maybe the guy is feeling sorry for himself and looking to comfort the pain by desperately seeking out people to fulfill himself no matter what it takes.

#3. There are many prideful people in this world, and there may be some rapists that are targeting victims to show off and see how many victims he can target.

#4. Some people could have personally paid the rapists to commit these crimes.

That's all I have on this subject. In summary, it is true that revealing clothes isn't necessarily why women are getting targeted and raped, there are other reasons for the criminal to target the victim.

[Heartless Angel]

There is only one person you blame when it comes to rape, and that's the person committing the offence. You could walk out of your house wearing nothing, and you still don't deserve to be raped, and you're still not asking for someone to have their way with you. That's not giving consent - no means no. You don't have to be a feminist or anti-feminist (or neither, whatevs) to understand that.

Nobody here is trying to place blame. The video the OP responded to was not trying to place blame. NOBODY is trying to place blame. The issue is not, and has not been blame, it has been safety. I'm not sure how much more clearly this can be stated.

Why should anyone minimise the risk of getting raped? Why should anyone have to? There shouldn't even be a chance of it happening, whether it's a stranger or someone you actually know. Your own partner could rape you. Your parents could. Your dentist could. Your neighbour could. Why should women (and/or men - they can be raped too) live in fear and be forced to "minimise" the risk of being raped, when it shouldn't even happen in the first place?

Because the reality is, you and I don't live in paradise. In reality, there are bad people, and there's not one damned thing any one person can do about it. Every claim made here has been normative, 'should' 'shouldn't'. Factual conclusions can not be derived from normative premises. The reality is not concerned with what should or should not be. The fact of the matter is, the world is not an ethical place. It is not a safe place. In an unsafe place, taking precautions is just good practice. I should be able to go out at 2 in the morning to the bad part of Detroit, right around where all the gangbangers hang out, and drive around in a replica of the General Lee, confederate anthem horn and all while wearing my white bedsheets. I still don't deserve to be shot! None of those things are illegal! Well that sounds lovely, what are the odds that I'm going to get shot doing that? About 1 in 1. While it's true that someone I know, my neighbors my family, anyone really could shoot me. Would anybody think anything OTHER than that I had a psychotic death wish if I went driving around in the General Lee wearing bedsheets in Detroit? It's still not my fault, and it couldn't have happened without somebody willing to pull the trigger, but I was quite obviously increasing the odds that something was going to happen to me. If instead of going to Detroit in bedsheets driving a General Lee replica I elect to spend tonight in my basement alone, suddenly the odds of me being murdered plummets. If it happens anyways, it isn't my fault, but variables over which I have direct control GREATLY affect the probability of unfavorable outcomes. In the case of rape, the control is to a much lesser extent, but an individual does to an extent have control over variable which can influence the situation and affect the probability. That is the ONLY thing being proposed by the video in question, and anybody here siding with it.

THAT is the issue that needs to be tackled. Not "women shouldn't wear hotpants after nightfall" or "women shouldn't wear such revealing tops". If ANYTHING, people wearing revealing clothes should understand and accept that there are people who'll judge, or leer or perv. But rape? Try and understand and accept that.

That is an issue which is not easily tackled. Avoiding high risk behavior is not nearly so difficult. It's something you can do right now, without anyone else's help. No, you aren't obligated to, but why would you go out of your way NOT to just because you shouldn't HAVE to? What is gained by engaging in high risk behavior just because you have the right? Is what is gained worth the increase in probability that something bad is going to happen? If the answer is no, why the **** would you NOT take the kind of advice being given here? Once again, this is NOT. I repeat NOT anyone's idea of solving the problem. This is a simple action that can be taken by an individual that can have positive impacts on their life. If modifying the probability is not worth that action to you, don't take it. It's not your fault either way. Nobody here has claimed otherwise.

I think what people are misunderstanding is the intention behind this movement to stop saying things like "don't wear that" and instead saying, "don't rape." It's not so much that we think we can convince a rapist of anything. It's changing the culture that makes women and men afraid to report their rapists because authorities/friends/family won't believe them or will ask questions about what they did to deserve it. So many rapes are never reported, because the survivor thinks, "What's the point?" And who could blame them? When a country laments over the tarnished reputations of rapists rather than the well being of the survivor, what are we supposed to think?

Recent example
Steubenville High School rape case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

During the course of the delinquent verdict on March 17, 2013, CNN's Poppy Harlow stated that it was "Incredibly difficult, even for an outsider like me, to watch what happened as these two young men that had such promising futures, star football players, very good students, literally watched as they believed their lives fell apart...when that sentence came down, [Ma'lik] collapsed in the arms of his attorney...He said to him, 'My life is over. No one is going to want me now.'"
Nevermind the young woman who went through sexual assault, had it filmed, was humiliated, and is now BLAMED for her rapists being convicted of rape.

No, we understand that's the idea, a lot of us just find that idea absurd, because as has been stated many times, saying "don't rape" doesn't accomplish anything. At all. What they're doing is already illegal. It is widely considered immoral. It is known to bring unfavorable consequences. Do you honestly think that people saying 'you shouldn't do that' in addition to these other things is going to matter in the slightest? People who commit rape are either desperate, deluded, or indifferent to the rules of society. None of these types of people are affected by society's views on something. The reason that people who report rapes are given such a runaround with the law is because rape is bar none the single most falsely reported crime on the face of the planet (upwards of 8 percent sometimes, which is huge for something like that). And people's lives are ruined even by false accusations of rape. Furthermore, the obvious defense against a claim that consent was not given, is that consent was given. Almost literally every case of rape can be reduced to his words vs. hers. It's not like the cops can just say thank you for the report we'll send in a forensics team to find evidence. The only thing they can do to substantiate the claim in most cases, is to question the victim. The accused is generally not going to be very helpful, because whether they did it or not, they're going to say pretty much the exact same thing. Furthermore, in a case of his word vs hers, the burden of proof belongs to the accuser. Is it an uncomfortable burden to bear? Probably. But that's how the legal system works, the accused is innocent until proven guilty. It isn't the world's attitude towards the crime that complicates matters, it's the nature of proving guilt when the only criteria by which it can be judged to be a crime, is something intangible like consent. And it isn't just rape that society is indifferent to based on who's accused of it. Society turns a blind eye to any wrongdoings for just about ANYBODY who 'has a promising future'. Celebrities get away with shit all the time. They can get away with murder for ****'s sake.

If a survivor doesn't do everything exactly right, according to society's standards for a proper rape victim, she (or he) has very little hope of getting any kind of conviction for her attacker(s), and very little hope of being taken seriously. Has she had sex before? Bad news. Has she had a one night stand that she consented to before? Well OBVIOUSLY she'll consent to ALL sex so CAN she EVEN be raped? Does she go out drinking with her friends? Does she go out drinking with MEN? MUST MEAN SHE WANTS TO GET ****ED I GUESS. Does she wear something that makes her feel sexy? Because it makes her feel like she looks good as hell, and she has a right to feel that way without thereby consenting to any and all sexual encounters with whoever wants a piece? WHAT A SLUT. Did she dare to walk somewhere (even just to her car) alone at night, like any other goddamned adult might like to be able to do? TEMPTING FATE, REALLY. Is she overweight? WHO WOULD RAPE HER? Is he a man? HE SHOULD FEEL LUCKY HE GOT LAID BECAUSE MEN LOVE ALL SEX RIGHT?

Again, this is not because society doesn't take rape seriously, but because a rape case all comes down to whether or not the accuser is telling the truth. And more importantly, whether or not we can tell she is. There is literally no other evidence to examine. It can't be proven one way or the other, it's purely a matter of whether or not your character and past actions seem to correlate with somebody who would give consent to the accused. It all comes back to innocent until PROVEN guilty. With nothing but a past history to go off for evidence, you're not going to be able to PROVE your case unless your past history tells a jury that there is no way in Hell or high water that consent was given. It's just a matter of the nature of the crime in relation to the burden of proof. Society's attitude is irrelevant.

A survivor of sexual assault has been through enough. They don't need to hear all the ways THEY could have stopped it from happening. They are ashamed and humiliated in the worst possible way, completely vulnerable, and the response to that should never be "well what were you wearing and were you drunk or flirting with him?" It should be "He/she was wrong to rape you, and it is not your fault."

Once again, the video in question, and everybody posting in this thread would agree with that. NOBODY is placing blame. Blame is not the issue. Nobody is faulting the victim for the occurrence of the crime here. Anybody who does is ****ing stupid. Period.

I'm in the camp of requiring "enthusiastic consent." You should know without a doubt that the person you're having sex with wants to be having sex with you. None of this "well you didn't explicitly say 'NO.'" People are awkward and scared, and not always as strong or powerful in a dangerous situation as we'd like them to be. Or sometimes they're blackout drunk. Or drugged. Or handicapped. Or children.

Again, it all comes back to the burden of proof. It's just as easy for a rapist to see "She said yes." as it is to say "She didn't say no", the only thing you'd be changing is the requirements for the lies to work. If you want to make it easier to get somebody penalized when somebody accuses them of rape, the problem that needs to be solved is this. How do we sort out the liars? The roadblock isn't society's views on rape, it's the burden of proof in a society in which a person is innocent until proven otherwise.

I was trying to avoid jumping into this, but I felt like I needed to share that distinction. It's a society that lets rapists get away with impunity because we interrogate the victim first. It's one that can have a group of young men standing around saying things like "Look how drunk she is, I'm gonna give it to her so good" without one of those young men saying, "Yo, man, that's ****ed up. She's a person." It's one that can stomach casual conversations about how much of a "****ing slut" someone is just because of what she's wearing. There's so much hate going around toward women and men who are just trying to be themselves like everyone else. We hate so hard on these people and then feel sorry for the rapists who get caught. I mean unless they're the crazy ****nuts who lock people in their basements, but GOD FORBID it's a handsome college student. Because the idea of telling that handsome student not to rape is SO RIDICULOUS, it must have been something the victim did to tease him and tempt him.

I hope I haven't wasted my time.

I'd like to think that no discussion about a serious issue is ever a waste of time.

[Unknown Entity]

I'm going to make this clear before I go on: I didn't once disagree that the video wasn't about safety. Not once.

Nobody here is trying to place blame. The video the OP responded to was not trying to place blame. NOBODY is trying to place blame. The issue is not, and has not been blame, it has been safety. I'm not sure how much more clearly this can be stated.

You can state that all you want if you wish, but that doesn't make the video come across as any less factual. He is basically saying that it's within male nature to rape, it's going to probably happen (tough shit, girls) and that women can prevent rape by following his guidance. He give this guidance as though if women don't follow it, they will most likely be raped and that it would be their fault for dressing like a summer Barbie doll and making too much eye contact.

Before you tell me again that NOBODY is placing blame, you have to be able to see that he is more or less assigning the blame to the victim by making them believe it can be prevented. Again, to make it clear, I don't disagree about it being about safety, but he goes out of his way to make the correlation between dressing like a slut and being raped.

Because the reality is, you and I don't live in paradise. In reality, there are bad people, and there's not one damned thing any one person can do about it. Every claim made here has been normative, 'should' 'shouldn't'. Factual conclusions can not be derived from normative premises. The reality is not concerned with what should or should not be. The fact of the matter is, the world is not an ethical place. It is not a safe place. In an unsafe place, taking precautions is just good practice. I should be able to go out at 2 in the morning to the bad part of Detroit, right around where all the gangbangers hang out, and drive around in a replica of the General Lee, confederate anthem horn and all while wearing my white bedsheets. I still don't deserve to be shot! None of those things are illegal! Well that sounds lovely, what are the odds that I'm going to get shot doing that? About 1 in 1. While it's true that someone I know, my neighbors my family, anyone really could shoot me. Would anybody think anything OTHER than that I had a psychotic death wish if I went driving around in the General Lee wearing bedsheets in Detroit? It's still not my fault, and it couldn't have happened without somebody willing to pull the trigger, but I was quite obviously increasing the odds that something was going to happen to me. If instead of going to Detroit in bedsheets driving a General Lee replica I elect to spend tonight in my basement alone, suddenly the odds of me being murdered plummets. If it happens anyways, it isn't my fault, but variables over which I have direct control GREATLY affect the probability of unfavorable outcomes. In the case of rape, the control is to a much lesser extent, but an individual does to an extent have control over variable which can influence the situation and affect the probability. That is the ONLY thing being proposed by the video in question, and anybody here siding with it.

Don't patronise me. I'm fully aware that I don't live in a world of sunshine and rainbows. I'm surrounded by concrete, alarms and sirens most of my day. Me and my co-workers are still petrified by a break-in at work, and fear that it'll only happen again as next gen and Christmas draw near. I work in a dodgy area of London where first world poverty, unemployment, drugs, alcoholism and thievery runs rampant, and I come into contact with it every single day. Whether it be wading through pools of vomit or shooing an aggressive customer out of my place of work, I'm dealing with the trauma that the Sun goes down at about 6pm, maybe earlier now, so my commute home is just as dark as it would be at midnight in the summer.

I didn't once say women should just say "**** it", don a mini skirt, tank top and heels, and walk through Camden at 2am in the morning because rapists shouldn't exist, so they won't. Because that's just ****ing stupid, but is it really their fault if they were raped? No. They went out dressed as what socially would be known as slutty, but that man hiding in the shadows, with the boner, who is prepared to ruin that woman's life AND even his own, is the one in the wrong. She still doesn't deserve rape for being stupid.

That is an issue which is not easily tackled. Avoiding high risk behavior is not nearly so difficult. It's something you can do right now, without anyone else's help. No, you aren't obligated to, but why would you go out of your way NOT to just because you shouldn't HAVE to? What is gained by engaging in high risk behavior just because you have the right? Is what is gained worth the increase in probability that something bad is going to happen? If the answer is no, why the **** would you NOT take the kind of advice being given here? Once again, this is NOT. I repeat NOT anyone's idea of solving the problem. This is a simple action that can be taken by an individual that can have positive impacts on their life. If modifying the probability is not worth that action to you, don't take it. It's not your fault either way. Nobody here has claimed otherwise.

Of course it's not easily tackled. I posted a simplistic belief because I did't have the time Oceaneyes had. I'm not naive to the dangers that are out there, and I'll accept advice that protects me; my brother wouldn't let me leave the house yesterday without him when I wanted to pick dinner up, for example. But that video can go both ways, you just have to view it from both sides. I, of course, see that the video puts the blame on the victim before I see that it can be about safety.

True story, not necessary to read, but here anyway.:

I was once followed a little over three miles home from work. This was about a year ago, so it was already pitch black when we closed the store down at 6pm. The person who followed me was a customer I'd served no less than three hours before that moment, so he'd waited a long time for me. When he approached me, it wasn't on the shop floor. It wasn't even outside when we brought the shutters down. It wasn't on the well-lit high street. It wasn't at the bus stop. It wasn't on the bus. It wasn't when I was on the well lit pavement that leads me back to the estate I live on.

No, it was in the dark street I walk down every damn day, where the lamp posts are about sixty metres apart and where trees cover most of their light. Not many people walk on it, or drive through it, but I was lucky that night. This man, who was in his late twenties jogged up to me - I was aware someone was running behind me by his shadow bounding up next to mine, so I put my muscles into defence mode. I was ready for a fight, if need be. I turned the instant he reached me and grabbed my arm. At the same time, a loud couple emerged from a building on the other side of the road for their night out.

He then stuttered and said: "Errr.... um. HEY. I SAWYOU AT CAMDEN. I wanted to know if you'd go out...with me."

Now, why the **** would anyone FOLLOW someone three miles just to ask them out, and wait until they were in a dark, almost deserted street to say anything? And grab their arm? What gave him the impression that I wanted him to follow me home when I served him at work? My smile? The fact I asked for his store card? The fact I put his change back into his hand, and said to have a good night? What was I wearing? At work, my usual dark jeans, trainers and my work top. On the way home, I was wearing my jeans, trainers, work top, jumper, long coat, scarf, gloves and had my bag around me instead of over one shoulder.

When he left, and was walking back in the opposite direction to where he was going, I was petrified. The couple on the other side of the road waited the whole time to make sure he didn't try and follow me around the corner. Was he just very innocent? Or was his intentions far more sinister? I'll thankfully never know, but I'll forever know that it is possible I can be followed home, whether I'm wearing an oversized, unflattering t-shirt at work or not. Do I take another route home? No. Should I? Sure, if anyone can recommend a well lit, busy route through a giant council estate that won't take me another half an hour to get to safety. Do I start asking my brother to meet me at the bus stop? What, so HE can walk through the dark estate full of overly-bred chav scum who'll want to start a fight over postcodes or "turf"?

If there is any advice anyone should give to a woman, to prevent rape or a beating, or whatever, it should be to be careful, and be aware of your surroundings. Know your exits, look for things that can be used as weapons if needed, and weigh up the risk before you go down darker streets. Try and travel with someone. Carry an alarm, or pepper spray, and make sure to be able to make some ****ing noise - first lesson in self defence is learning to use your voice to startle or put down an opponent. If loud grunting doesn't work, don't just scream "RAPE" or "HELP" because no one will listen (they're overused by groups of friends in playfulness) - shout "FIRE" or "BOMB" or "GUN". Actually LEARN a little self defence. Me and my boyfriend play wrestle all the damn time, and while it's fun, it's also serious - making sure I can overpower him, or find ways to, so that if I ever need them in a very real situation where a firm "stop" or "enough" or "no" doesn't work, I have at least a little preparation.

Heartless, just because I have simplistic beliefs and state common sense far too much, that doesn't mean I see nothing but innocence in the world. I know it's a dark and terrifying place, and I see it every damn day. I can be a damn wasp when I need to be too.

[Heartless Angel]

I'm going to make this clear before I go on: I didn't once disagree that the video wasn't about safety. Not once.

Then it would seem I jumped to conclusions, if so, my apologies.

You can state that all you want if you wish, but that doesn't make the video come across as any less factual. He is basically saying that it's within male nature to rape, it's going to probably happen (tough shit, girls) and that women can prevent rape by following his guidance. He give this guidance as though if women don't follow it, they will most likely be raped and that it would be their fault for dressing like a summer Barbie doll and making too much eye contact.

It's within human nature to do all sorts of unpleasant things, unpleasant things are probably going to happen. He on more than one occasion also rejected the notion that he was blaming women, AND more than once stated that it could still happen either way, and that this was not the sole deciding factor in whether or not you were raped.

Before you tell me again that NOBODY is placing blame, you have to be able to see that he is more or less assigning the blame to the victim by making them believe it can be prevented. Again, to make it clear, I don't disagree about it being about safety, but he goes out of his way to make the correlation between dressing like a slut and being raped.

Because the correlation exists. It isn't an exponential relationship or anything, but there is a correlation between what a would be rapist thinks of you based upon your appearance and actions, and whether or not he tries to rape you. It's a risk-hazard/cost-benefit analysis, the whole point is to show correlations.

Don't patronise me. I'm fully aware that I don't live in a world of sunshine and rainbows. I'm surrounded by concrete, alarms and sirens most of my day. Me and my co-workers are still petrified by a break-in at work, and fear that it'll only happen again as next gen and Christmas draw near. I work in a dodgy area of London where first world poverty, unemployment, drugs, alcoholism and thievery runs rampant, and I come into contact with it every single day. Whether it be wading through pools of vomit or shooing an aggressive customer out of my place of work, I'm dealing with the trauma that the Sun goes down at about 6pm, maybe earlier now, so my commute home is just as dark as it would be at midnight in the summer.

I didn't once say women should just say "**** it", don a mini skirt, tank top and heels, and walk through Camden at 2am in the morning because rapists shouldn't exist, so they won't. Because that's just ****ing stupid, but is it really their fault if they were raped? No. They went out dressed as what socially would be known as slutty, but that man hiding in the shadows, with the boner, who is prepared to ruin that woman's life AND even his own, is the one in the wrong. She still doesn't deserve rape for being stupid.

Apologies if I misunderstood you, but usually that's exactly where an argument is going when I see something like "You could walk out of your house wearing nothing, and you still don't deserve to be raped, and you're still not asking for someone to have their way with you. That's not giving consent - no means no." And as often as I find myself in debates, I've developed the habit of pre-countering points that I expect to be coming up. Sometimes it serves me well, others it just makes me look like an ass. I AM an ass, so I don't suppose it matters much either way. Thunderfoot also explicitly stated that not taking precautions was not the same as deserving the crime in this or any other situation. Multiple times.

Of course it's not easily tackled. I posted a simplistic belief because I did't have the time Oceaneyes had. I'm not naive to the dangers that are out there, and I'll accept advice that protects me; my brother wouldn't let me leave the house yesterday without him when I wanted to pick dinner up, for example. But that video can go both ways, you just have to view it from both sides. I, of course, see that the video puts the blame on the victim before I see that it can be about safety.

But it doesn't, it rejects the notion implicitly and explicitly numerous times. I legitimately do not understand how this point can even be contested.

If there is any advice anyone should give to a woman, to prevent rape or a beating, or whatever, it should be to be careful, and be aware of your surroundings. Know your exits, look for things that can be used as weapons if needed, and weigh up the risk before you go down darker streets. Try and travel with someone. Carry an alarm, or pepper spray, and make sure to be able to make some ****ing noise - first lesson in self defence is learning to use your voice to startle or put down an opponent. If loud grunting doesn't work, don't just scream "RAPE" or "HELP" because no one will listen (they're overused by groups of friends in playfulness) - shout "FIRE" or "BOMB" or "GUN". Actually LEARN a little self defence. Me and my boyfriend play wrestle all the damn time, and while it's fun, it's also serious - making sure I can overpower him, or find ways to, so that if I ever need them in a very real situation where a firm "stop" or "enough" or "no" doesn't work, I have at least a little preparation.

That's also good advice, just not of the same nature. The advice being given is of a preventive nature rather than a corrective one. My recommendation on what to yell would be "FIRE!", just because potential helpers would possibly be too scared of an armed attacker to help if you were to shout gun or bomb. Knowing how to defend yourself is just good practice in this world, and I'm pleased to see that you've taken that precaution.

Heartless, just because I have simplistic beliefs and state common sense far too much, that doesn't mean I see nothing but innocence in the world. I know it's a dark and terrifying place, and I see it every damn day. I can be a damn wasp when I need to be too.

Again I must apologize, I'm far too used to arguing with people who don't understand the world, or rather don't want to.

[che]

Clearly this is such a tough and offensive issue for ALL of us here, because none of us like what we're discussing. The only real reason I think to try and say that you can do something to make yourself less of a target of rape is because I don't want anyone to get raped. I know the only person to blame is the person who decides to rape. I seriously wish there was something I could say or do to make sure that everyone who heard me or took precaution would never get raped ever. And if making myself look like a huge ****ing douchebag on a forum for having ideas, then cool. I know we're not gonna solve the rape issue.

It's like, I somewhat comprehend but completely understand that there are people (male, female, and all) in this world that decide to rape. I'm not ever trying to blame anyone who gets raped by saying they were wearing the wrong thing. When I have said stuff like that, I guess I really AM saying that please don't be the one wearing those short ass shorts when you go out at night, because in the past or for some god damned reason my brain thinks that has something to do with how a rapist at a bar selects his target. It REALLY is just a "I don't want anyone to get raped, but if someone is going to, I definitely don't want it to be my daughter, or my wife, or girlfriend, or friend or any girl close to me". But I don't want anyone to get raped. I guess I know it's inevitable and I'd rather it happen to someone else. Yeah, that's not helping the issue. I am sick of ****ing comparing guns to rape or other crimes to rape in general, but again: if someone was going to have a school shooting, I wouldn't want my kid to get shot. I'd hope to **** when I heard about it that it was someone else's kid. Obviously I don't want ANY kid to get shot, EVER. But I don't think I'm the only one who thinks this way. But yeah, I'll ****ing admit it.

So yeah, it's ****ing offensive as hell when dudes are like "don't wear those clothes, and don't go out at night and don't go to that concert and be in that environment". I don't think Heartless Angel, Rowan, myself, or anyone that has posted in here that has talked about what to wear or anything means any harm to anyone. We're NOT the rapists. We obviously do not understand what makes a person decide to rape someone. I think we are all just trying to help but we're at a loss.

And I totally agree that the way I think, concerning safety of the women (and men! ****ing hell) around me is totally patriarchal. For me, it's an issue of instinct vs. what's morally correct in society. And in the face of danger or anything like that, I'm probably gonna go with instincts until I have protected those around me first and foremost.

edit: feel like a **** for making this post but i'm gonna leave it up. I hope everyone has a nice day.