Your thoughts on bullying

[Valkyrie]

Another thing for the record- I didn't say it was the bullied persons fault.

I'm not going to correct you, my post was correct in the way I wanted it to be and you'll just have to read over it again.

I'm sorry if you feel I'm posting against you, I'm not.

I'm unsure why we're conversing psychological disorders to such a degree, but I've adressed the main issue here. I agree, to an extent, with how Silver feels.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Another thing for the record- I didn't say it was the bullied persons fault.

I'm not going to correct you, my post was correct in the way I wanted it to be and you'll just have to read over it again.

I'm sorry if you feel I'm posting against you, I'm not.

I'm unsure why we're conversing psychological disorders to such a degree, but I've adressed the main issue here.

"It is the bullied person's problem, but they were chosen to be alone by the people around him/her. This is a continuing problem in our society. Not everyone is like this, but a lot of people do overlook things that should be dealt with. If you are ignoring bullying, you are just like the bully. The bullying is getting done."

That's what you said.
I took it as that.
Until I noticed it didn't make sense.
It must have been a typo on your part.
Already said sorry.

Anyways, about the psych disorders.
We are discussing about bullying and if it can cause mental disorders.
Bullying causes or can cause a psych disorder.
There is more than enough proof for that. Saying it isn't, isn't correct in any term or way you can say it.

[Valkyrie]

Let me help you understand, Odin...

What I said is exactly what I mean. Bullying is the bullied person's problem, or we wouldn't be discussing what we're discussing right now.

You're misunderstanding me by thinking of "problem" as "fault". They are two seperate words with very different meanings.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Let me help you understand, Odin...

What I said is exactly what I mean. Bullying is the bullied person's problem, or we wouldn't be discussing what we're discussing right now.

You're misunderstanding me by thinking of "problem" as "fault". They are two seperate words with very different meanings.

Yes, but in the format you placed it in, it is too easy to misunderstand the point you are putting across, thinking now that you said it, makes sense 100% but again, it was a little vague.

If you were to say, "Bullying is a problem the individual in question has,"

Problem has slang definitions.

Ehh, too much formalness.

[Heartless Angel]

and problems IN SCHOOL can be handled IN SCHOOL. When it leaves school, then it goes out of school. Now you're back to bullying, you're alternating between the two as it suits your position.

An actual mental disorder and stress related symtoms are not the same, nor do they lead to the same things. Again, you alternate between the two as it suits you. Problem being, every time you switch over, you lose any ground you gained from the previous point, as you're talking about something entirely different now. When you keep doing this, you inevitably go nowhere with your argument.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Honestly, you aren't stupid Heartless, but on this subject you are.
I wish my psych can see this.
Just stop because you are attempting to do what I do in person, manipulate others words.
Seriously. I love how you disdain the article I showed because it proved you wrong, but then again, sociopaths are for the most part, NARCISSISTIC!!!!!

About the gang and bullying.
They are in a gang. They were bullying me in school.
If I were to do something, most likely, their gang would do something back.
You aren't good at breaking down what others say, as I had to show what I meant tho you should have gotten it from the beginning.

And about the Psychology disorders, hearing your takes on it make no sense at all, literally, you don't know what you are talking about and I suggest you stop.

[Heartless Angel]

I'm not manipulating your words. I'm taking you at what you're saying, and what you're saying is at least partially wrong (not entirely, but partially). You exagerate and equivocate, change the subject as you see fit and them attempt to take evidence for one claim and say it proves another.

I show no disdain for the articles you've posted, nor have I even mentioned them, because by and large, they're not relevant to what you're claiming. They've proven nothing. You're making claims well beyond what your evidence actually supports, and declare yourself victorious because evidence supports something moderately similar to your claim.

I'm well aware of what you're saying. They mess with you at school, you handle it at schooll. If they in turn mess with you out of school, you handle it out of school. A detention may not deter a bully, but an assault charge and the possibility of a criminal sentence might. Again what you are saying is not evidence to support your claim or your way, you're simply justifying how you handled your own situation... or rather how you chose not to out of fear. That doesn't mean the situation was beyond handling, that means you were affraid or didn't care enough to handle it. That's on you, not the bullies.

I hate to break it to you mate, but I've taken a fair few psychology courses myself. Abnormal psychology among them, with extensive emphasis on personality disorders. I know what I'm talking about. You equivocate between stress, normal human reactions to events, and personality disorders as though they were all the same thing, they aren't, and you can't treat them as though they were. My take on personality disorders is based on medicine and science wheras yours are rooted in your psychological need to place the blame of your problems on something else and your refusal to accept anything other than what you've decided is truth. In fact, psycholgists have NEVER pinpointed the exact cause of personality disorders as you're claiming your sources do, when in fact all they do is show common problems of bullied individuals, which are not indicative of any personality disorder. In fact, in stark contrast to your claim, studies have shown personality disorders to be correlated strongly to genetics and biological factors. Yeah, you need experiences to set them off in most (not all) cases, but the underlying conditions have to be present for anything to occur.

[Selcopa]

@HA i dont think he claims to be a psychologist, just that he sees one, he does claim to have alot of knowledge in the field however.

Huge misunderstanding of what Depression is(real depression is biological not behavioral)

Fighting is instinctual...you don't need to be taught to fight, everybody knows how to fight, you apply force to a mass and attempt to collide it into another mass, don't need a coach for that.

Shrinks,Therapists,Doctors, I guess Psychologists too, Psych for short, never heard it used as 'my psych' before, not a big deal.

You are very quick to focus the blame of your problems on to other people, your mental problems were caused by bullying and only bullying, had you not been bullied you would have lived life completely normal, no other effect in your life would have caused you to become borderline schizo as you are now.

We're too stupid to understand your points, if we were smarter we would see that it isn't your fault. Common for people to focus the blame on situational instead of dispositional, especially males.

Attacked the person based on some of their traits(sociopath tendencies) as opposed to the content of their arguement, its a fallacy i forget the specific one (Ad hominen?)

Yes we are saying the events didn't cause your problems, I read and understand that there are alot of behavioral psychologists who think that bullying can contribute to(note, they use cause in a VERY different context than you are using it) smoking weed can cause schizo too, the people that 'catch' schizo from it still had a certain disposition to it.

Like I said its pretty standard to want have your problems be situational, if they were dispositional(ie your fault) then you would be in part responsible for you being bullied, coming to realise that will be quite damaging to an already fragile psyche, and the mind is very good at maintaining its defense mechanisms.

All in all I don't think Odin will be able to provide any more useful information as they are too worked up to sit down and critically think about some of the concepts brought here. He is too focused on proving that his problems are not his fault.

[Angel of Iniquity]

No I'm not a psychologist, I have taken Psychology courses on Beauty, fear, and abnormalities.
I know what the I'm talking about.

Anyways.

Point in case, bullying can cause personality disorders.
That's all I am saying and there is nothing you can do to show me other wise.
Until you can, than my argument continues

I had a whole other statement, but I decided to come across as I do in real life.
Plus it would have gotten me a warning and I seem to be an magnet for minor things.
(Points at my warning level)

[Alpha]

Dailymotion - Casey Heynes vs Bully - wideo z kana

Has anyone seen this? It's a media storm in Australia and New Zealand at present.

The smaller kid appears to be bullying the larger kid, who apparently 'snaps', and fights back in self defence. I will warn that it may disturb younger viewers or something.

The details are murky, as I'm sure any school-yard incident is. I watched an interview with the smaller kid, who revealed that he has been bullied his entire school life. He also stated that the larger kid taunted him first. The veracity of that statement I'm sure is unclear.

What is near universal, is support for the larger child. Fighting back against a nasty bully. And fair enough, too.

However, I will admit that I feel equally compassionate for the other child. Haters gonna hate, but I believe in the bottom line of forgiveness, and that violence is never a reasonable response. But that's my opinion.

By all means, continue this discussion in the light of this example; I'm curious to see your opinions.

[Angel of Iniquity]

The kid who stood up for himself is brave.
It is a good thing he routed his anger the way he did, I wouldn't have dealt with it so clean.

Compassion is for the weak.
Where was his compassion when he taunted the other kid?

[Selcopa]

In australia the water in the toilet spins the opposite way, it only makes sense that the bullies are the smaller kids and the bigger ones get picked on.

That little kid might have been bullied before by someone else, thought he saw someone he could bully, he was wrong. Hahaha.

Are you guys serious?
Point my blame on others?
Are you guys seriously that stupid?

[Angel of Iniquity]

In australia the water in the toilet spins the opposite way, it only makes sense that the bullies are the smaller kids and the bigger ones get picked on.

That little kid might have been bullied before by someone else, thought he saw someone he could bully, he was wrong. Hahaha.

I changed my post, but apparently not fast enough.

[Selcopa]

And why did you do that? Was it because you know we're not stupid or that you realise that you were in fact blaming others while you were criticizing us for suggesting that you blame other people?

[Angel of Iniquity]

And why did you do that? Was it because you know we're not stupid or that you realise that you were in fact blaming others while you were criticizing us for suggesting that you blame other people?

No, because I will not cause myself to gain another warning.
I do not mind that you said I blame my problems on others, it is the way you said it. I place blame where I see fit. If it weren't for them, my life would be drastically different. Obviously I took it stronger than others. Maybe my home life wasn't the greatest and amplified it. I have not been in a single house for more than a year without getting kicked out for reasons I will not say, my health rolls in roller coasters with tendon tears, temporamandibular joint dysfunction, torn hamstring, unknown stomach problem, and underweight.

This is not a biography, just to slow claims.

Without the bullying, I would have been able to deal with the other aspects easier.
The bullying had a greater effect than the home life. Bullying is to blame for about 80% of my outlook on life.
My psychologist also brought up depression, and though I have never felt the emotion depression, he suggested depressive psychosis, but never evaluated me for it.

[Furore]

I don't necessarily agree with non violence in the school yard, Alpha.
As much as I'd love peaceful means to work, often if a kid 'asserts himself' one of the bullies will be goaded by the others into punching him square in the face and if a kid tells an authority figure, often he'll get in more trouble as the bullies will band together and testify the victim instigated the whole thing.

Really there's only two methods to avoid bullying I've seen work effective:
1. Seem atypical - you won't stand out enough to be a target, this won't work for everyone.
2. Punch the bully in the face and get as many hits in as possible until you're clobbered. You might lose the fight, but most bullies won't risk taking a decent shiner from you a second time. You stop being an easy target.

If I were in charge of a school, I'd look into surveillance equipment. Bullying would still happen, especially in areas like toilets where no-one'd stick cameras, but the authority figures would still have a better idea of what's going on.

[Heartless Angel]

Point in case, bullying can cause personality disorders.
That's all I am saying and there is nothing you can do to show me other wise.
Until you can, than my argument continues

Point being, no, you are in fact wrong. And then you turn and throw out the fallacy of misplacing the burden of proof. YOU make the claim, it's on YOU to prove it. You can't, therefore the claim is nothing more than heresay, and is thrown out as such. Stamping your feet and plugging your ears to any other points is not a replacement for the evidence you lack. Your argument is based in blind ignorance and the arrogance to think it's worth something.

No, because I will not cause myself to gain another warning.
I do not mind that you said I blame my problems on others, it is the way you said it. I place blame where I see fit.

Which in this case is others. "Where you see fit" and "where it belongs" are not equivalent.

If it weren't for them, my life would be drastically different.

And if it were for your preexisting mental states, your life would also be drastically difficult. Case and point, the bullies are not solely to blame. YOU are responsible for the way YOU are.

Obviously I took it stronger than others. Maybe my home life wasn't the greatest and amplified it. I have not been in a single house for more than a year without getting kicked out for reasons I will not say, my health rolls in roller coasters with tendon tears, temporamandibular joint dysfunction, torn hamstring, unknown stomach problem, and underweight.

And there you have it! Bingo! Get that man a cigar and blowtorch to light it with! Other problems with your own physical condition and your own mental state and behavioral nature is what led to you become as you are! Oxygen may be required to keep a flame burning, but oxygen in itself does not start fires. YOU started your own fire here, they just fueled it.

Without the bullying, I would have been able to deal with the other aspects easier.

Hindsight is always 20/20. You have no conclusive proof that you wouldn't have developed the same way, or in a way similar enough for the pupose of this argument that one could reasonably consider the outcomes the same. You can only speculate.

____________________________________

As for your example Alpha, I'd have to say the small kid was just a moron. I mean comon, really? That's like going out and trying to piss off a bear, you piss it off enough, you're going to get your ass mauled. I mean comon, really? Duh?

[Angel of Iniquity]

Heartless angel.
You said you are a Sociopath.
Here is the main reason why I can't be right when we are having a disagreement.

Profile of the Sociopath

Not good enough?

Sociopath - The Sociopathic Personality

Even more?

Sociopath World - Inside the mind of a sociopath

If it were I where you stood, and vise versa, I am pretty sure you would say there isn't proof that it doesn't cause it.

If you are indeed a Sociopath, i am unwilling to have any more conversations with you when it comes to debates and disagreements.

It wasn't me who moved, it was my family because of things I will not throw public.
And yes, my life would have been different.

The nature vs nurture debate isn't finalized, meaning we are both wrong in saying either is the decisive victor.

[Selcopa]

Why did you focus on the sociopath part instead of the points of his arguement, they appear valid. If he was a sociopath and agreed with you, you wouldn't say "well he is a sociopath so even though he agrees with me his opinion is null" It is no different if he disagrees with you.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Why did you focus on the sociopath part instead of the points of his arguement, they appear valid. If he was a sociopath and agreed with you, you wouldn't say "well he is a sociopath so even though he agrees with me his opinion is null" It is no different if he disagrees with you.

It means, I won't be right, no matter what I say if he is a Sociopath.
His arguments hold little validity.

I already stated what I said against his "points," but as I said, I am always wrong in his eyes, which makes sense in his other posts.

[Heartless Angel]

And now you are comitting the Argumentum Ad Hominem. What I think is irellevant to what is right. Your links haven't proven or suggesting anything about me or my points. There are varying degrees of sociopaths, I'm actually on the lwoer end of the spectrum, and am well in control of my thoughts and while I don't generally empathize with people, I evaluate what's said for what's said, not for who's saying it. Thus far, you have also stated that you posess a great deal of sociopathic traits, while not actively acknowledging you are one, consistently insisting your own superiority, corectness, and ignoring any opposing viewpoints. You embody every negative aspect of the sociopath. If that in itself is reason to disregard a person's points, you are the least credible person on this site.

Even IF I agreed that all of those links were my life in a nutshell, that establishes nothing. Who makes a point or why they make it is absolutely irellevant to wheter or not it is correct. I have made perfectly valid points based on the rules of logic and critical thinking, you on the other hand have commited damn near every fallacy of relevance I can name. Yet still, I read everything you say, and evaluate it for what it is. What it is just happens to be 'wrong' in an overwhelming majority of cases, because you base your claims on irrelevant nonsense.

My eyes see logic. I am perfectly aware of what I do and do not know. If somebody knows more than I do, I'll be the first to acknowledge that and learn from them, you however insist that you know everything and shut out any and all contrary evidence, no matter how many times over it annihilates your attempts at an argument.

You said NOTHING against my points. You changed the subject, dismissed without reason, and directed your points at an attack on me. If that's your idea of an argument, I don't suggest ever entering an ID thread again, you'll get eaten alive.

[Angel of Iniquity]

So you are perfect?
Watch your tongue petty man.
As I have stated, you are always right, and I will not respond to any points that you claim to make, as they are always correct in your eyes.

[Heartless Angel]

No. Not at all. I'm socially awkward, morally dead, moderately saddistic, in poor physical condition, and have more halth problems han I could name given the vBulletin post character limit. One does not need to be perfect to be correct. Simiarly, one doesn't have to be flawed to be wrong. This is why we use critical thinking to evaluate arguments for what they say rather than resorting to name calling like you have once again when you've run out of points to make.

Once more, you have stated it, but completely and utterly failed to prove it. When you can succesfully use lgoci to establish a point, I will acknowledge its validity, evaluate your premises, and come to a conclusion on whether or not your argument is compelling enough to reverse my judgement. As of now, your arguments aren't even valid, so arguing about whether they're sound isn't even a possibility. And you might try reading your own posts some time, you're guilty of everything you've accused me of thus far (without reason) and have once again resoted to taking the argument to a personal level because you can't establish a point with your current information. There's a reason you keep getting warnings bro, you do this every time you're wrong (or at least incapable of proving otherwise).

[Angel of Iniquity]

No, I react to insultive gestures which I have held on since I was bothered in school.
As I had said, Nature vs Nurture is undeceive.
There's nothing else.
Would you like me to say I am sorry for forcing a blind sided opinion about personality disorders? No, why? Because, it is undecided, meaning I could be right or I could be wrong.

When will I show logic? When I see humbleness.

Edit: My post that got this started.
About the kids caused the personality disorder.
I may have had it from genetics, but they would have caused it to bloom, meaning they caused it.
Thinking too much won't get you too far, over analyzing, pejorative.
I didn't know I have to apply critical thought in a forum. Shouldn't have too.

[Heartless Angel]

Critical thinking is the basis of argument mate, if you're not applying it, you shouldn't be in an argument at all.

May be wrong, maybe right, you've asserted it as right. Now you yourself have acknowledged the uncertainty, which is why that piece of evidence failed to support your conclusion. If it were certain that were the cause, you would've had a valid argument, but that wasn't the case.

[Meier Link]

Ok I am stepping in. Warnings have been issued and I am going to tell you guys to keep this thread on topic. Off topic posting will not be tolerated and if it continues the thread will be closed and further warnings will be issued. If you have tried to stay on topic disregard this warning, if you are questioning if I am talking about you then you are probably correct and this does apply to you.

Also the sly little jabs some of you have made at each other needs to stop now (yes the second this post has been made) any more and expect a PM that states that you have been warned. This is your verbal warning to straiten up immediately.

Thanks and have a good day.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Critical thinking is the basis of argument mate, if you're not applying it, you shouldn't be in an argument at all.

May be wrong, maybe right, you've asserted it as right. Now you yourself have acknowledged the uncertainty, which is why that piece of evidence failed to support your conclusion. If it were certain that were the cause, you would've had a valid argument, but that wasn't the case.

I have sent you a message on why I acted so.
And I have 5 warnings... *twitch*
Dies Irae... >.>"
*twitch*

Yes I have asserted it as right, because I sensed hostility.
If you had just stated I was wrong, I would have reacted less violently.
The more somebody posts against one of my subjects, the more I feel pointed out, again which I blame on childhood.
...5 warnings... *twitch*
... shouldn't have...

[Meier Link]

And you are about to get your 6th. Take general conversation out of this thread and into a VM. One more official warning and you will be just 2 PTS from being banned from this forum and your lucky I am in a good mood right now or you would recieve it seeing I just warned you for off topic posting (and more). Now get this thread back on track or it is CLOSED.

[Alpha]

Just going to put it out there that I linked a video on the end of page two that has been swallowed up. It's there if you missed it, and I'm still curious for reactions.

[Zargabaath]

I saw that video on O'Reilly last night. I know somebody mentioned that the little fellow said he was picked on by somebody as his reasoning for picking on the big fellow. I find that to be total bull-**** and just a way for that little guy to cop out of trouble. He knows he was wrong, got slammed & K.O (that could have counted as a Fatality) & is trying to wiggle his way out of trouble like the little sh*t he is.

I have no qualms with the big kid defended himself as I say every human has the right to defend themselves. The big kid was standing there, taking a couple/few jabs & not even be in an aggressive posture/body language. He did try to block a few of the skinny kids attacks, but the kid kept attacking. With that the big kid slammed him like Zangief.

After re-watching that video there are a few things I noticed:

1) It looks like none of the students go to get a teacher's help, though school systems seriously fail at handling these situations by suspending both students. They view defending one's self just as wrong as attacking another person - & that is seriously wrong.

2) This kind of goes with 1. There is a person recording this scene instead of getting an adult. Serious faults lie with humanity if this is today's reactions. Just like in the film " Kick-*ss", when Kick-*ss is getting beat from defending that one guy he tells the kid to call 911. Instead the idiot records the fight along with all the other stupid kids who join in onlooking. An example that was shown in reality. Pitiful.

3) Did anybody else notice that the girl on the left at 00:11 was smirking/smiling. It looked as if she was trying to hide it by obscuring her face.

4) I like how the skinny kid's "friend" steps in after he gets slammed as if to say, "Hey that wasn't nice/cool". Yeah, because what that little tyke was doing was "swell". Then he appears to follow the big kid as if he is deciding if he wants to take "revenge" for his "fallen comrade of a bully".