Our Idea of Heroes

[Sinister]

I don't consider myself well-read, and yet, if there's something I don't know about that I think is significant, I have the vanity to be shocked. I'm also not entirely versed in WWII stories. I know a fair few, but apparently not enough.

I heard on the radio the other day about a man named Chiune Sugihara and I was absolutely furious. I. Simply. Could. Not. Control. My. Anger.



There was a Jewish Rabbi that unearthed a WWII Jewish Survivor in Japan, who was cleaning the cemetery. The man told of being stranded in Lithuania. Not being able to stay there any longer and not being able to obtain a Visa for any other country he had come, finally, in desperation to the Japanese Embassy in the hopes of saving at least one member of his family. He met with Chiune Sugihara. Sugihara-sama looked at him frankly and told him there was no way his country would authorize him to issue a visa. The man replied that he had to try. Sugihara-sama asked him to return the next day. So the next day the man returned. He told him that his country denied him the authority to issue a visa. He asked the Jewish man what would happen to him if he could not obtain a visa. The man replied that he and his family would be loaded onto trains, hauled away and killed. Sugihara-sama stared at him and then stared at a box at the back of the room. He wrote the visas and gave to the man. Then he continued to write them. He wrote on into the night... And told the Jewish man to come back the next day. He did so, and continued to write them 18-20 hours a day. He finally started to use blank paper and the embassy seal and flung them out of the train he was forced to take to go back to his nation. He reportedly told the man that he was so sorry and that he could not write anymore. He issued THOUSANDS of visas, many to heads of families who were permitted to take their families with them under the conditions of the visas. He wrote six thousand visas. The little Jewish man cleaning the cemetery was cleaning Sugihara-sama's grave.

The estimate of Jewish descendants from survivors are forty-thousand. Forty-thousand lives were saved by the action of a little Japanese man in an embassy. Not to mention that that figure is merely an investment that will continue to compound. That is truly staggering...and yet the only thing I could think, with fury, is that I had never even heard this man's name. The Kardasians and the Biebers and the parasites that dangle from the ass-end of what we call a culture to the forefront of every camera, will not be ignored...but not this humble man.

Tell everyone about this man. Print out his picture. Get a tattoo of his name in Japanese.

Contrast this to what we call heroes or Idols. How does our society justify any surrogate to heroes. We have heroes talked about in whispers like they're legends. But we talk about celebrities in real-time and on magazine covers. How many more supermen never even made a decent story to tell?

-Sin

[Alpha]

Sometimes people like this are content to be humble, to remain unknown. I think there's a quality in that. Like the story of the poor woman in the temple who only gives two coins, and Jesus notes that she has actually given more than the rich people who were giving piles of coins, but doing so from a position where piles of coins is meaningless. Humble actions can be meaningful. Not being aware of this man doesn't take away from his actions. In some ways it strengthens it. You can be sure that the people you read about on celebrity magazines everyday can generally be ignored. There are plenty of people in the world you will never ever hear about but are the most amazing people you could possibly encounter. This is but one example. A staggering example, of course, given the magnitude of his action. But I doubt he did it to be famous and have his name tattooed on people. He did it because he could.

I would suggest that the reason you have never heard about this is that the man was Japanese, and therefore an 'enemy'. Victors write history, and it doesn't serve the victors well to highlight the fact that no enemy is a monolithic block of pure evil. That's probably why many atrocities at the hands of the victors and the powerful have gone (and do go) unmentioned.

[Sinister]

Agreed, that is why he hasn't been heard of. But that is inexcusable now. Why do kids hear about baseball players or fake movie heroes as their role model. Those aren't heroes! They never will be heroes or will be heroes in ways that have nothing to do with anything but their character and actions. And if the heroic character is to be taught, why hide our examples!? This man's life is a template. He's even canonized in the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church. Why not here!? Why isn't he in text books and have his own holiday. Hell, he could share billing with Oskar Schindler.

I'm talking about a big ****ing monument out front of every school and everyday a hired employee would go up to the admirers of the monument and smack them upside the head and point to the statue an shout: "How to be!"

Anwar Sadat
Chiune Sugimaru
Mahatmas Gandhi
Oskar Schindler
Nelson Mandela
Martin Luther King jr.


Reject False Icons!!!!! Dammit!

-Sin

[Alpha]

Well if it's any consolation, I liked him on Facebook.

[Lacquer Head]

People look for the kind of heroes that put their lives in danger or even sacrificed their lives for the greater good. Something as "boring" as making visas and being a war hero don't quite seem as...action packed, regardless of who performed a bigger service. There are massive amounts of people that have saved lives, some are idolized, some are not, it just really depends on the situation. It's the same reason musicians and people that play sports get idolized, we enjoy what they do and wish we could do it as well. We can relate to what they do, they inspire us to live up to expectations and all that bullshit. But what's to say that makes them any less deserving of idol status? It's all too relative and subjective.

Personally, the idea of a hero itself leaves a bad taste in my mouth. When you start to idolize people, your objectivity begins to falter and you ignore the negative aspects of your hero. They can do terrible things, but until someone is proven the hero contradicts themselves...they generally don't believe or care. There are also certain very bad details left out of some heroes as well, I'm not sure about this guy, but regardless, it's possible. People like Mahatmas Gandhi and Mother Teresa for instance. This is part of the reason why I don't idolize anyone, perhaps someone I were to meet, though this happened, but history tends to view things with a tinted lens...if you know what I mean.

I also believe in living your own life towards your own ambitions and philosophies that you build from your own experience, you can respect people, lot's of them, for VERY different reasons, but don't try to emulate them. Realize they were people just like you or I, living for their own reasons. It's part of the reason I respect the Nazi regime, specifically in the scientific field and their various levels of success...however brief and doomed it may have been. On the other hand, I am disgusted by the destructive side.

[Sinister]

The fact is not whether idolizing is a good idea... The fact is...it's a phenomenon. It can only be spoken about or shifted. It cannot be killed. People will always exalt someone. The greater number of people, the greater the exaltation. You can color it with hero or anti-hero or war hero or movie star or singer or Japanese Idol or Astronaut.... That will never be taken away. But we take the only parts away from our idols that we respect. There's no fan of a musician who doesn't wish he could play just as well or better than his idol. He doesn't give a shit if said Idol was a pedophile rapist. He only focused on the good music and tried to be better. Sugimaru-sama did something amazing and worked himself to exhaustion just at the prospect that his little bits of paper might save someone's life. He didn't care if the people he saved were murderers or villains or saints. There is a fundamental understanding going on here. Something outstanding happened. A man saved 44,000+ lives with paper, despite he might be sentenced as treasonous.(by the way his family was disgraced, and in Japan that has some context). Afterwards, he sold light bulbs door to door trying to support his own family. This was all after being put in a Russian POW camp. Is he God the father? Of course not. Would I do that if I were in his position? I don't know. But maybe...if his actions had been lauded and celebrated and told everywhere...maybe I would. If he had been presented as a role model. If a man had KILLED Forty-thousand people, he would be presented as an anti-role-model such like Hitler.

And people start to Idolize as kids. I idolized Ozzie Smith, Franz List and a stupid character from the anime Guyver. The truth is it affected me. I had a template to emulate, one that I was told was admirable. That gave me pride and I went forth in life with a spirit of one kick-ass short-stop, a crazed composer and a ....giant demon bug with lazers.

What I'm saying is there is wasted potential here. This man did extremely well without knowing what would happen to him, short of being accused of treason. Saved forty-thousand people. If I had a million dollars...I would go to every single store and buy all the nescient vacuous magazines and draw them all out into the middle of nowhere and burn them. Pile them so high the fire will be seen miles away. And I'd do it on the Fourth of July.

-Sin

[Lacquer Head]

The fact is not whether idolizing is a good idea... The fact is...it's a phenomenon. It can only be spoken about or shifted. It cannot be killed. People will always exalt someone. The greater number of people, the greater the exaltation. You can color it with hero or anti-hero or war hero or movie star or singer or Japanese Idol or Astronaut.... That will never be taken away. But we take the only parts away from our idols that we respect. There's no fan of a musician who doesn't wish he could play just as well or better than his idol. He doesn't give a shit if said Idol was a pedophile rapist. He only focused on the good music and tried to be better. Sugimaru-sama did something amazing and worked himself to exhaustion just at the prospect that his little bits of paper might save someone's life. He didn't care if the people he saved were murderers or villains or saints. There is a fundamental understanding going on here. Something outstanding happened. A man saved 44,000+ lives with paper, despite he might be sentenced as treasonous.(by the way his family was disgraced, and in Japan that has some context). Afterwards, he sold light bulbs door to door trying to support his own family. This was all after being put in a Russian POW camp. Is he God the father? Of course not. Would I do that if I were in his position? I don't know. But maybe...if his actions had been lauded and celebrated and told everywhere...maybe I would. If he had been presented as a role model. If a man had KILLED Forty-thousand people, he would be presented as an anti-role-model such like Hitler.

And people start to Idolize as kids. I idolized Ozzie Smith, Franz List and a stupid character from the anime Guyver. The truth is it affected me. I had a template to emulate, one that I was told was admirable. That gave me pride and I went forth in life with a spirit of one kick-ass short-stop, a crazed composer and a ....giant demon bug with lazers.

What I'm saying is there is wasted potential here. This man did extremely well without knowing what would happen to him, short of being accused of treason. Saved forty-thousand people. If I had a million dollars...I would go to every single store and buy all the nescient vacuous magazines and draw them all out into the middle of nowhere and burn them. Pile them so high the fire will be seen miles away. And I'd do it on the Fourth of July.

-Sin

I thought he only saved 6,000 lives o.O but helping people is something we're all EXPECTED to do (usually by people that wouldn't help anyone at all) and genocide is one of the most evil acts imaginable. It's just more shocking when it's a large act of evil, it's why news sources tend to center around tragedies and such.

I never idolized or really respected anyone as a kid, never had any real reason to do so. My whole life, I've been told I should be more like other people, look up to them, all that shit. It got old, fast. MY belief is self reliance and individuality, if I were a more spiritual person, I would say we all have our own destiny or something cheesy like that, but we're all different and we should celebrate and accept that. We should do what makes us happy, not constantly worry about being as awesome as these blown up images we have in our minds of our heroes.

I'm not saying the Sugihara doesn't deserve respect or anything like that, just explaining why I think he's not famous. People like this that DON'T get recognition are some of the most respectable, because they truly only did it to help people.

[Sinister]

I thought he only saved 6,000 lives o.O

Yes, that's true...but those 6,000 had babies. And those babies had babies.

but helping people is something we're all EXPECTED to do (usually by people that wouldn't help anyone at all) and genocide is one of the most evil acts imaginable. It's just more shocking when it's a large act of evil, it's why news sources tend to center around tragedies and such.

I agree that it's something that everyone SHOULD be expected to do. But you notice that, at the time, no one else did.

I never idolized or really respected anyone as a kid, never had any real reason to do so. My whole life, I've been told I should be more like other people, look up to them, all that shit. It got old, fast. MY belief is self reliance and individuality, if I were a more spiritual person, I would say we all have our own destiny or something cheesy like that, but we're all different and we should celebrate and accept that. We should do what makes us happy, not constantly worry about being as awesome as these blown up images we have in our minds of our heroes.

One of the magnificent thing about people is how varied they are. I applaud you for being an individualist, and am somewhat envious, but you most likely have emulated someone at least once in your lifetime, perhaps without even realizing it. When the majority of people, who inevitably do pick someone to idolize and emulate, choose fake and frivolous idols instead of real heroes, I think it's very sad.

I'm not saying the Sugihara doesn't deserve respect or anything like that, just explaining why I think he's not famous. People like this that DON'T get recognition are some of the most respectable, because they truly only did it to help people.

I know you are correct about this. I just don't think it's right. But then, I suppose there's not much to do, but spread the word about truly great people.

(Plus, for whatever reason, I absolutely hate it when people quote posts in segments and reply to each individual statement. I don't know why. But I apologize for doing this to your post. lol)

-Sin

[Odin1199]

We shouldn't idolize anyone, just appreciate their deeds, actions, learn from them and try to be ourselves. All in all, they're just the same people, like us and not some supernatural beings.

[Sinister]

We shouldn't idolize anyone, that's very true...
And really the man who idolizes another should be burned alive, But Emulation is bound to happen and people who know nothing of boundaries tend to take it too far into idolatry.

We shouldn't idolize anyone, just appreciate their deeds, actions, learn from them and try to be ourselves.

All in all, they're just the same people, like us and not...

some supernatural beings...

I think that Odin1199....[message error;I] [Username logical fallacy error]

Something about your post just crashed my positronic brain... I'm in safety mode!! Shit,, that hasn't happenedsas in a long time. I have to go lie down now.



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[mushroom]

We shouldn't idolize anyone, just appreciate their deeds, actions, learn from them and try to be ourselves. All in all, they're just the same people, like us and not some supernatural beings.

i completely agree with this, each one of those people you listed above that you say we should strive to be like i could point out a major character flaw in. and i do not want my son to try to emulate those people, even though some of the ideas they had were worth taking.

I think that Odin1199....[message error;I] [Username logical fallacy error]

Something about your post just crashed my positronic brain... I'm in safety mode!! Shit,, that hasn't happenedsas in a long time. I have to go lie down now.

Odin is a fiction. don't we all strive to be like the gods? it is much better ideal than striving to be like someone that in their downtime from being a respected freedom fighter was a sexual deviant and maybe pedophile.

[Lacquer Head]

But Odin is a God, not a man

[Sinister]

Whew. I drunk posted that last post and boy did it come off making me sound like a douche. Umm, well. Either way, I apologize for that.

That having been said. If we're all willing to pretend that we don't emulate/idolize others, then count me out. I may be misusing a few words when I say idolize, but then, what I am saying is that we are built from and by other people. Does no one know about Identification...my god, has no one read Freud? It happens regardless of anyone's distaste for it! It disrespects your disrespect for it and pretending that it does not occur precludes the thinking man from trying to direct it or steer it to sources that are positive.

-Sin

[Lacquer Head]

Whew. I drunk posted that last post and boy did it come off making me sound like a douche. Umm, well. Either way, I apologize for that.

That having been said. If we're all willing to pretend that we don't emulate/idolize others, then count me out. I may be misusing a few words when I say idolize, but then, what I am saying is that we are built from and by other people. Does no one know about Identification...my god, has no one read Freud? It happens regardless of anyone's distaste for it! It disrespects your disrespect for it and pretending that it does not occur precludes the thinking man from trying to direct it or steer it to sources that are positive.

-Sin

Those are more influences than idolization, and I have to say, I haven't had much of that in my life >_> obviously a bit, else I'd be...dead. Though, perhaps that's what influenced me to HATE emulating people.

[Sinister]

Those are more influences than idolization, and I have to say, I haven't had much of that in my life >_> obviously a bit, else I'd be...dead. Though, perhaps that's what influenced me to HATE emulating people.

I already admitted "idolizing" was a misused term.
And hating to emulating people doesn't mean anything. WITHOUT IT, you would be like the Danielle in the other thread, an empty vessel. Sorry, but hating to emulate people has little effect on the process which is largely subconscious, I merely suggest making a consciouse choice which is much more individualistic. It's where we get our morals, our knowledge and intelligence... monkey see monkey do, everything about us is practically posteriori(sorry, Jung) and thus, perforce gleaned from OTHER PEOPLE. I feel as if I'm overly repeating myself and killing the point of the thread. Thus, I've said my piece.

-Sin

[Lacquer Head]

I already admitted "idolizing" was a misused term.
And hating to emulating people doesn't mean anything. WITHOUT IT, you would be like the Danielle in the other thread, an empty vessel. Sorry, but hating to emulate people has little effect on the process which is largely subconscious, I merely suggest making a consciouse choice which is much more individualistic. It's where we get our morals, our knowledge and intelligence... monkey see monkey do, everything about us is practically posteriori(sorry, Jung) and thus, perforce gleaned from OTHER PEOPLE. I feel as if I'm overly repeating myself and killing the point of the thread. Thus, I've said my piece.

-Sin

Ah, I see what you mean. I mean actively following another person's philosophy and such. Also, hehe, you said posterior