Heaven and Hell: Misconceptions and Realities (As provided by The Bible)

[OutlawTorn]

I should start by stating that I'm not a religious man. Religion implies the following of a structured faith. A member of a church or religious community. I have my own faith, and it conforms.to no other man's ideals or laws. I have read the good book several times from front to back. I'm a big fan of history, and the Bible is mostly historic facts retold with a magical twist tossed in here and there. It is only through reading a Bible that you come to learn that widely embraced misconeptions about heaven and hell are so off-base you wonder how in the hell it ever got so twisted up.

First of all let's establish that the version you've probably read or will read has been modified a tiny bit. Only some careful rewording in the areas refering to heaven, and what happens when God's final judgement befalls our souls.


But first, let's also establish that I'm well aware that everyone has their own beliefs about this. I personally feel heaven is a 24/7 Disco party/orgy where squids in bikinis serve egg nog and poutine on giant chocolate chip cookies instead of plates... But that's just the 1st level of heaven in the outer realm of the gods! .... You get my point. We're talking SOURCE MATERIAL here, not half-cocked fantasies. If you practice a non-christian faith, that's great, but this is BIBLE discussion.


Hell:

First of all, there are no levels or circles, okay? This is newbian f**kery conceived by satanic 40 year old virgins over D&D campaigns. Let it go for the sake of this discussion, again it's Source Material Talk.

Hell is described as an abyss, or a 'Lake of Fire.' It is not Satan's domain... He is not down there torturing the souls of the wicked. Hell is empty right now. It's Lucifer's place of torment and currently awaits him.

To fully grasp this, you must first understand the story of Satan. We first encounter him in Genesis as the serpent who deceives Eve into questioning God and defying him in the Garden of Eden.

We next find him in the book of Job. He is summoned before God who askes him what he's bewn up to (paraphrasing). He tells the big man he's on the earth, "walking to and fro".

Satan is an angel, not a dark diety opposite the light. Biggest misconception in the history of mankind.

He challenges God's divinity and rule. He wishes to test the farmer Job, positive Job will rennounce him if he feels betrayed by his lord.

Now, God could have sent Satan away, but all of the oher angels are present... One rouge is enough, he cannot have a following begin to muster behind Satan. He tells him he may kill his caddle, wither his cops, taint his soil, and destroy his home, but he may not reach out and *touch his person*.

Job is tested several times but this is irrelevant. The story explains the beginning of Satan's role here. He is a restless angel who defies God's rule and divinity.


Hell is a place created for him to suffer along with the damned souls of mortal men. Think of it as a prison... The worst prison imaginable.

Several times in the good book, mortal death is described as "Sheol", meaning grave, or 'sleep'. This means when we die, there is no instant judgement, no passage either up or down. Your souls sleep until the final hour.

At which point, the names are read from The Book of Life. Here's where it gets hard for a lot of people who spent their entire lives saying stuff like, "He's in heaven right now, looking down on us. "

No he's not. lol.

Heaven:

Those who aren't in that book go to hell with Death (the essence of death, not a hooded scythe wielding skeleton) and Satan for a designated period of time (1,000, or 10,000 years. Forget exactly). Now God rebuilds the earth. No disease, sickness or death. Eternal life for all. No heaven...

You see, you're a creature of Earth, made on Earth, to live on Earth.

Said period of time passes. The damned souls are freed from the lake of fire and given one last chance to embrace Jesus as their lord, savior and king. But Satan is also released to test those who have supposedly accepted faith over flesh.

Now the last cut is made and Satan is destroyed in the abyss along with anyone who has failed. No coming back. Your soul is destroyed and the abyss along with it...



The End

[Rowan]

The reason as I'm sure you're aware that Hell is described as having different levels, is because its written that there are different levels of punishment for those who end up there depending on their 'unforgiven' sins. The levels somehow managed to get interpreted as physical levels, but as much of the bible relays, so much is upto interpretation.

For anyone that has read the bible (including yourself) you are well are that its full of bullshit, no eyewitness accounts, just stories from random people who've claimed to have seen things. The new testament had a few laughs in it,but for the most part was absolutly dreadful. I can see why the church's reprinted the bible to try and hide all that shit and stop people from finding out what a horrible ****ing religion it is.


The bible would be a cool science fiction movie if they brushed it up a little. But much like scientology, people take it seriously. Which is quite sad.

[OutlawTorn]

Just as we cannot say something happened, we cannot say it didn't. Both are equally ignorant and unfounded.

I mean multiple men, a lot of which didn't know each other, and didn't live at the time as each other said some shit happened and maintained a mild level of consistancy conceptually. That doesn't prove any of it happened, but no one wrote that that shit specifically didn't. So right now we only have the perspective of these men, for what it's worth to each of us personally. I don' have to hate to disagree.


But I more or less agree with you.

[Rowan]

Just as we cannot say something happened, we cannot say it didn't. Both are equally ignorant and unfounded.

Just so its clear, my position is firmly of that which is "If theres no evidence, its ignorant to believe it".
If people want to use the bible as evidence, Im able to use captains log as evidence of klingons in outer space.

I cant believe we agree on something. Someone screencap this.

[OutlawTorn]

Well it's ignorant to assume things only happen when there is tangible evidence.
I took a shit today, Rowan. But since there is no evidence beyond my saying so in written words, it did not happen.

~ AUTO-MERGED POSTS ~

Right now, as we-two insignificant specs on the asshole of the universe who are destined to know sweet **** all about the any form of meaningdul truth-speak, there is a large, boat-like wooden structure is sitting on Mount Ararat in Turkey....

While it *proves* nothing, the fact remains that people don't build boats on mountains....

[Rowan]

Well it's ignorant to assume things only happen when there is tangible evidence.
I took a shit today, Rowan. But since there is no evidence beyond my saying so in written words, it did not happen.

Right now, as we-two insignificant specs on the asshole of the universe who are destined to know sweet **** all about the any form of meaningdul truth-speak, there is a large, boat-like wooden structure is sitting on Mount Ararat in Turkey....

While it *proves* nothing, the fact remains that people don't build boats on mountains....

Are you saying it doesn't require tangible evidence to devote your life to a belief in an all-powerful omnipotent being?
You could also be lying in attempt to prove a point, which is motivation enough for religion when it comes to controlling people. Theres so much evidence against the theory of supernatural beings that its generally rejected by any reputable academic.

[OutlawTorn]

Hope is a powerful thing, Rowan. I don't give two ****s what anyone believes in. But if the thought that there is a God who loves us all, even though he knows we're all unworthy of it in one way or another and created us for a purpose because we're special can help them get by in a cruel, hateful and senseless world where children die every day, then who am I to even consider taking that away?

I'd have to be some kind of damaged, scared and shitty pesron.


Billions of things happened today you'll never find evidence of, must suck living in a bubble of uncertainty and closed mindedness.

[Rowan]

Hope is a powerful thing, Rowan. I don't give two ****s what anyone believes in. But if the thought that there is a God who loves us all, even though he knows we're all unworthy of it in one way or another and created us for a purpose because we're special can help them get by in a cruel, hateful and senseless world where children die every day, then who am I to even consider taking that away?

I'd have to be some kind of damaged, scared and shitty pesron.

The belief in any god has killed far more people than it has helped. People choose to ignore the wonders of life in its naturally occuring state and prefer to think that it was created for them by a loving diety depsite the fact he ignores 1/5 of the worlds population who live in poverty and starvation. Until the issue and contradictions of religion are addressed for what they are; opressive, vindictive and littered with falsifications, people will continue thinking its okay.

and no, its not okay. Its probably the most dangerous thing to ever be inflicted on humanity.

Btw, Hope can be had without faith.

[OutlawTorn]

It boils down to this, Professor: When I master percision time travel, you'll be the first to hear the verdict. But until then, I like to keep my feet on the ground, not in my mouth. I'm no one to say what's what unless I was there myself.

Acadamia draws conclusions based on both fact and missing fact alike. It's been wrong before, and will be again.

~ AUTO-MERGED POSTS ~

The intention of faith is pure but bas been corrupted by the most evil entity on this planet which consumes and destroys everything it comes in cantact with. We msde religion a tool of control, dececption and fear. We made it a weapon...


Mankind is a virus, kid. A celestial cancer. Religion has **** all on humanity, boy.

#Realitycheck

[Rowan]

IAcadamia draws conclusions based on both fact and missing fact alike. It's been wrong before, and will be again.

Absolutley.

Religious texts don't draw conclusions from academia though, which is a significant difference.

[OutlawTorn]

religious text dont draw conclusions from acadmeia though, that being a significant difference.

Your grammar is getting sloppy. I worry about you, Rowan.

[Heartless Angel]

It should also be pointed out that there is a key difference between evidence not existing, and evidence not being readily accessible to an individual. That Rowan is not capable of gathering evidence to determine whether you have in fact taken a shit, doesn't mean the evidence isn't there. If this was actually an important question, evidence could be gathered and a reasonable conclusion could be drawn. The inaccessibility of evidence is only an issue when it's inaccessible to everybody whether they're interested in it or not.

Even in the absence of hard physical evidence, however; it can still be deduced with a very high degree of certainty that you did at some point take a shit. Everything we know about biology suggests that people eat food, and that people who eat food, generally shit after the digestive process reaches completion. While it is possible that you aren't human and don't eat like a human, and it is possible that you have an abnormal digestive system that for some reason or another does not require you to shit after eating, both of those are highly improbable. It is therefore very likely that you did, at one point, take a dump. To further deduce probability, it is necessary to define 'today'. From my time zone, it was 7PM when you made that statement, and the average person craps once per day. Therefore, there is about a 19/24 chance that you did, in fact, shit today, as I define it. If it was actually 1 AM for you when you posted that, then only a 1/24 chance. Even without hard physical evidence of this claim, there is plenty of information available to draw a conclusion from.

[OutlawTorn]

I've never heard the blatently obvious stated more eligantly, HA.


And thanks for making an appearance, Alpha. You know we love seeing you name at the bottom of a good post.

[Clint]

Your interpretations are good, but I have a problem with one thing that you said.

Several times in the good book, mortal death is described as "Sheol", meaning grave, or 'sleep'. This means when we die, there is no instant judgement, no passage either up or down. Your souls sleep until the final hour.

At which point, the names are read from The Book of Life. Here's where it gets hard for a lot of people who spent their entire lives saying stuff like, "He's in heaven right now, looking down on us. "

No he's not. lol.

You're assuming that time after death is relative to earth. I get that part you said about a creature of Earth, made on Earth, to live on Earth, but if you're dead, the only part of you left on earth is your physical self. Hypothetically, who you are as a person, or the soul, or whatever you want to call it, is held in another dimension to await judgement. But who's to say that the judgement isn't instantaneous? As far as anybody is aware, the dimension where hell exists could have no concept of time. Since hell can't be found in physical three-dimensional space, it's safe to assume that if it exists, it's simply not in three dimensional space. Human beings are capable of perceiving things up to three dimensions of space, so essentially volume. Anything beyond the third dimension would be beyond our perception. Just because we can't find something doesn't rule out the possibility that it doesn't exist, and that includes hell.

Since we can't find it, it exists at a higher level of dimensional space, but when you get into the fifth and sixth dimension, time is theoretically irrelevant. They would be able to observe fourth dimensional space, which would be volume plus time, and if you can see time, time becomes something that you can simply observe, or perhaps even pass over entirely. You would be able to see every outcome of every event, as well as observing possible parallel universes.

And surely in a dimension of space such as that, where the natural flow of time really doesn't matter, it's not absurd to assume that when you die, you are instantly judged, even if this judgement takes place far into the future.

I'm not as smart as Einstein. I just confused the shit out of myself.

[OutlawTorn]

For the record, Clint the comment Beta-I mean alpha deleted was nothing more than a joke.



See Beta-I mean alpha hates me, and with good reason. But we'll leave that one for his theropist.

Just editing in here rather than deleting this as I initially reached for... I don't want to look like I'm censoring anything. I will delete posts that don't actually deal with any form of intellectual ideas. I still think ID needs a higher standard than GC to encourage engaged debate, otherwise they may as well be the same section. I also gave OutlawTorn a warning for flaming for the deleted post. I give those out, too, if you make stupid remarks about people. I didn't have anything to do with his banning though. Yours sincerely, Beta.