GLBT Rights and Christianity

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Originally Posted by Order

There is nothing to ignore because there is no issue here.

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Not mentioning LGBT rights as much as your fear of some one being different. Hatred stems from fear and what not.

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See, I didn't say anything in the least sexist or offensive.
You can overgeneralize and project steriotypes on me all you like. It doesn't change the fact that there is no controversy here.
This thread is like me making a thread about how I know there are unnamed individuals in daily life whom I interact with who secretly want bad things to happen to me.

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I agree a bit that individual activism is stupid, either push for human rights as equals or nothing, but to pretend there isn't a major issue regarding gay persecution is just pure ignorance. Those are the reasons for this thread.

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Oh, they are?
Thank you for clearing that up for me.
I guess I should release all of my concubines and stop kicking my racially different neighbor every time I see him.
Thank you for imposing a new process of thought on me!
Where did you aquire such wisdom?

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You're the one that already admitted to holding gender bias.

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Douche.

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Nice Ad hominem, you must have been on the debate team.

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Oh look, steriotypical, outdated fence standing. After certain aspects of each side of an arguement those who are undecided (or, more accurately, unable to think for themselves) begin comprimising. Picking and choosing attractive ideas and points from both sides of a debate, reguardless of overall logic or fundamental moral values.

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...did you just diagnose yourself?

>logic
>moral values

haha...HAHAHAHAHAHA, because moral values aren't subjective. Seriously, please tell me you're just trolling right now. Please explain how anyone has flawed logic besides yourself. I really wouldn't care if you disliked gays or "men who act girly" but you posted it in this thread, which is on topic, thus making it a fair topic. If you don't want me to point out your sexist nature, don't let it show in a debate about such things.

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My point is, I understand that gay people exist and arent a problem as a cultural group. What you fail to understand, Laquer Head is that the fact that there is no problem and therefore no controversy is what bothers you.
You believe that there should be a problem.
But I, clearly one of the more conservative members, am telling you. Suck as much **** as you like. Suck **** while reading the bible, if you are so talented.
It makes no difference to anyone or anything but to you personally.

You're welcome.
Now you know what to think.

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Ignoring the problem once again. I will admit, it's better than contributing to it (though calling people immoral IS contributing to it) but seriously, is it even possible to deny there IS a problem today? Just google "gay discrimination" ffs. I'm not going to hold your hand for something so simple.

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Not mentioning LGBT rights as much as your fear of some one being different. Hatred stems from fear and what not.

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Blah blah blah.
Are you sure you were addressing me?

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I agree a bit that individual activism is stupid, either push for human rights as equals or nothing, but to pretend there isn't a major issue regarding gay persecution is just pure ignorance. Those are the reasons for this thread.

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What reasons?
What's the issue?

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You're the one that already admitted to holding gender bias.

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Yep.
Am I not allowed to think what I want?

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NiceAd hominem, you must have been on the debate team.

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Nice grammar.
I believe I did mention something in the past about it.

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I really wouldn't care if you disliked gays or "men who act girly" but you posted it in this thread, which is on topic, thus making it a fair topic.

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You feel strongly about the fact that I stated it doesn't bother me and I don't have a problem with the existance of homosexuals.
You are *creating* an issue.
(Did you catch what I did there, Rowan? Im not even using my crystal ball yet.)

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If you don't want me to point out your sexist nature, don't let it show in a debate about such things.

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Actually, I pointed out my preference of traditional gender roles.
You are making assumptions and jumping from fact A to statement F and other logical paradoxes of the space time continuum.
Congratulations, you are a now a magician.

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Just google "gay discrimination" ffs.

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Oh, is that how debate works now?
You make a statement and then tell me to give you supporting facts to uphold your beliefs?

Or are you just a lazy moron who can't think for himself?

If the former,
Then google "equal rights in the workplace" "equal opportunity employers" "support groups for homosexuals" "human rights and equality".
Once you have done that, write a full length post about how these result in a discrimination-free working environment and how over the past two decades the cultural stigmas on the issue have changed in the united states.


If the latter,
You are now a magical, lazy douche.

It looks to me like we have 2 points of view and that they are clashing to the point where people are either being blunt of just plain offensive. We have the few who believe that sexual orientation and gender descrimination is an issue, and we have order who believes that its not. The few are pissed off because they believe that its obviously not an issue for Order since these are not his problems to deal with, Order believes that these problems shouldn't have any impact on their lives and are bitching as a means for a cause to fight for. Can either of you care to elaborate furthar?

In the end im actually torn. I've said this time and time again. I dont care who wants to bugger who, but I really dont want to know about it (unless of course i've made one of my trademark threads) or have sexuality/gender thrown in my face (that goes for homosexuality, chauvanistic attitudes, feministic bullshit etc) but what I do want is for everyone to have a fair go at life and be happy with themselves.

I think its time to redefine the issue. Because I dont think that the basis for this conversation is because people dont care about your sexuality, I think it was because some people are against your sexuality. In which case, I think its none of their buisiness. Having said that, its the church's buisiness who gets to be married and noone has the right to change that. There are many alternatives to marriage that results in same financial benefits and something ill actively be seeking since I am unable to be married in a church because of my scientific beliefs, which brings me to my next point. Its not just homosexuals who are being excluded and I think thats what Order is trying to say. Its not just homosexuals who are descriminated against, its practically everyone. This particular issue in my eyes, is a very small issue. I cant be married in a church, but you dont hear me complaining. Maybe its not for the same reason, but why should that make it any different? Im still being descriminated against, the law has recognized Marriage as a sign of Love and commitment between 2 people, what should their beliefs and sexual orientation have to do with that?

If you want to be joined in holy matrimony that badly, then fight for it. Otherwise, accept that some churches are bigoted, just as they were intended to be. Then live your life the way it makes sense for you and be happy.

Ooh, my ignore list just earned it's first silly goose.

As I said, I agree with the church forbidding it. I also agree that people that have to throw it up every chance are just silly, but the same can be said for ANYTHING.

And so, we have reached TFF's first widely agreed upon conclusion in an ID thread.
You're all welcome.

So, I'd like to make my closing statement:
You all exist. I see you and it doesn't bother me. I know you have met people who dislike you for your sexual preferences. As a great philosopher once said, "Haters gonna hate."

The overall point of this thread has been live your life according to your standards within the confines of the law. Let the extremists make their posts, their videos, shout their slogans because you do too.

Life, liberty and the persuit of ****.

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Originally Posted by Order

Let the extremists make their posts, their videos, shout their slogans because you do too.

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See, that's just it, though. A lot of us don't have slogans. And the problem with the extremists is that they slander GLBT people as a community and get away with it. Even worse is the fact that so many of them are non-profit organizations. How that works, considering that non-profits can't have a purpose that involves political lobbying, I don't know. Churches certainly have a right to say what they want about us, but there are some that have advocated violence against GLBT people, ranging from a plain, old-fashioned beat-down to abusing male children who act feminine to the brutal murder of trans and gender-variant people every single year. That is the reason for this topic. I didn't go into that in my initial post, but all of these things are the result of a fear perpetuated by many Church leaders that GLBT people are the worst kind of evil this planet has to offer: that we will cause the fall of civilization with the destruction of the "traditional family", or that God's wrath will descent upon us if we, as a nation, are accepting of GLBT people as equal. So, this has little to do with whether Churches are willing to marry GLBT people (they shouldn't have to if they don't want to), it has to do with the negative consequences of anti-GLBT rhetoric based in lies.

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Originally Posted by Rowan

I am unable to be married in a church because of my scientific beliefs, which brings me to my next point. Its not just homosexuals who are being excluded and I think thats what Order is trying to say. Its not just homosexuals who are descriminated against, its practically everyone. This particular issue in my eyes, is a very small issue. I cant be married in a church, but you dont hear me complaining. Maybe its not for the same reason, but why should that make it any different? Im still being descriminated against, the law has recognized Marriage as a sign of Love and commitment between 2 people, what should their beliefs and sexual orientation have to do with that?

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Right now, there are only a handful of states who allow for same-gender civil unions (civil union=state, marriage=religious... sort of). So the law is pretty biased against GLBT people on that front. As I already said, this is not about being married in a Church, this is about Church leaders who are the root cause of anti-GLBT discrimination in many places outside of Church buildings. Furthermore, a person really shouldn't desire to be married in the midst of a congregation that doesn't align with their personal beliefs about faith and spirituality (I think I already mentioned that somewhere in this thread... if not, I'm saying it now). However, as for yourself, if you do want to be married in a Church, I'm pretty sure the Unitarian Universalists would probably be a good choice of a denomination to host your marriage if you are so inclined. And, unfortunately, I think there are seven states where it is illegal for an atheist to hold a public office. That affects me because I feel that atheists and agnostics have a very wonderful voice when it comes to how we should move our world forward that needs to be heard. Unfortunately, so many Christians (and Muslims) tend to be focused on the right now because they both think the end of the world is near. Unless cool-headed, reasoned voices speak out firmly against such beliefs, I fear the extremists of those two groups will be the death of us all.

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Originally Posted by Laqcuer Head

I agree a bit that individual activism is stupid, either push for human rights as equals or nothing, but to pretend there isn't a major issue regarding gay persecution is just pure ignorance. Those are the reasons for this thread.

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And Lacquer hits the nail on the Head (pun intended lol). Overall, there has been a lot of good discussion on this thread. However, there has also been a lot of namecalling and mudslinging. There is no need for that.

I guess on a final note, I would like to call Order out. Claiming that effeminate men are incapable of decisiveness and that butch women are controlling and bully other women is a poor stereotype. If it's wrong for effeminate men to be indecisive, why is it not wrong for women to be indecisive? Is it wrong for men to be controlling and bully other men? What about masculine men who are indecisive. You are oversimplifying gender. Sure, there are those in those groups who fit that description, but I know a few awesome effeminate gay man who I don't want to get on the wrong side of. And I know some butch women who are really wonderful people. As for myself, I'm an enigma to most people when it comes to acceptable gender roles. I'm a transsexual woman, I have slightly butch tendencies, and I enjoy some traditionally masculine things... but I also like wearing make-up and other "girly" things from time to time. By Order's logic, I am indecisive about my controlling nature, and I only work hard some of the time. I am indecisive at times, but when a decision needs to be made, I make it. After all, it is a woman's prerogative to change her mind. I don't try to control people because I think it is morally reprehensible. Finally, I work hard because my family needs me to, I study hard because I want to go places in life, and I play hard 'cos I only have one life to live, dammit! :woot:

Edit: I've been doing those things there at the end of my post... that's why I haven't been around. :p

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By Order's logic, I am indecisiveaboutmy controlling nature, and I only work hard some of the time. I am indecisive at times, but when a decision needs to be made, I make it.

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You are not a unique an beautiful snowflake.
You are the same as everyone else aside from your one defining quark which dictates every other facet of your life.

According to my logic, you are a man who follows the flow of his emotions. Whatever he *feels* like at the time is what he is. You don't bother to consider why, you just do as you feel.

I dont care what you think of yourself and how special you are and how you are an expection to everyone's primitive standards.
You are just another person and thats all there is to it.

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I'm an enigma to most people

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Get over yourself, mary.

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I don't try to control people because I think it is morally reprehensible. Finally, I work hard because my family needs me to, I study hard because I want to go places in life,and I playhard 'cosI only haveonelifeto live, dammit!

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And it all comes back around to my first point.
You are no different from anyone else.
You define yourself based on exactly one quirk you have developed.
You fall into the category of a man who is subject to the whims of his feelings.
You are not special, you deserve no special consideration, to include that you will have groups who hate you, just like everyone else.
Quit complaining about your relatively well off, first-world citizen problems. Nobody needs to have any sympathy for a person who has no trouble finding a job, buying food and staying as healthy as they desire.

Tell me what I think now, mary.
Your psychological profile lead to plenty of assumptions, do they still stand true?
Am I so terrible for not giving a crap about your choice of lifestyle?
Will you push the issue that you deserve sympathy further without one shred of evidence?
Will you admit that there is nobody hunting for you and you have plenty of frinds who are similar to you and your daily life is almost completely discrimination free?

Your move, mary.

Order, I had typed a response for you based on what your wrote point by point. About 9/10 of the way through, I realized that it would do no good, because you actually believe what you say, and you have the right to that belief, as uneducated and small-minded as it is. You're also free to believe that yours is the majority view in the western world. You're also free to believe that GLBT people aren't able to be discriminated against in jobs, housing, and public accommodations in the majority of the United States. You're also free to believe that I'm a person who has never questioned anything in the whole of my time on this plane of existence. Nope. Not me. I never even questioned when my favorite English teacher in high school introduced me to the transcendentalist writers who valued questioning ideas and the glory physical labor above all else (and I certainly didn't fall in love with Thoreau's work about how wonderful it was to be true to oneself).

You're wrong. But you're free to continue to be wrong, and if you are a United States citizen, I once wore a uniform and carried an M-16 to defend your Constitutional right to believe in whatever stupidity you desire. If the military didn't have what I believe to be foolish standards on what constitutes a person who is fit for duty as a soldier, I would do it again.

You're the specialist, though, so please continue telling everyone how much you don't care about how normal you think I am... or how normal you think I'm not... or which ever one who want to say you're doing while doing the exact opposite.

Also, I'm not a man, and my name is not Mary.

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I once wore a uniform and carried an M-16 to defend your Constitutional right to believe in whatever stupidity you desire. If the military didn't have what I believe to be foolish standards on what constitutes a person who is fit for duty as a soldier, I would do it again.

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That's right, lackey. YOU gave me my right to be an arrogant ass. All this time I thought I must have earned it through birth-right, but now my eyes are open.
Thank you for going and retreiving that invaluable item for me personally. I don't know what I would have done without it.

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Also, I'm not a man, and my name is not Mary.

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Yeah, I know.

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You're also free to believe that I'm a person who has never questioned anything in the whole of my time on this plane of existence. Nope. Not me. I never even questioned when my favorite English teacher in high school introduced me to the transcendentalist writers who valued questioning ideas and the glory physical labor above all else (and I certainly didn't fall in love with Thoreau's work about how wonderful it was to be true to oneself).

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More of what the thread was created for, circle jerk.

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You're the specialist, though, so please continue telling everyone how much you don't care about how normal you think I am... or how normal you think I'm not... or which ever one who want to say you're doing while doing the exact opposite.

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What were those troubles you said you had which lead you to a belief which resulted in the creation of a thread?

Why create a thread on *this* site, which is host to plenty of gay people who already share similar views as you?

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Order, I had typed a response for you based on what your wrote point by point. About 9/10 of the way through, I realized that it would do no good, because you actually believe what you say

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What is it I believe which is wrong, morally, factually or otherwise?

Do you not like the fact that your problems are small and self-created in my opinion?

Do you not like the fact that I am heterosexual and couldn't care less about if anyone else is or not?

Do you not like the fact that I don't have to deal with some of the same problems you deal with?

Do you not like the fact that I have made it a point to create an image I would like others to see, promote it effectively and benefit from that image in my own way?

Do you not like the fact that I have essentially taken the standpoint that you have made your choices, whether intentionally, or through the lack of conscious choice and you are where you stand now because of them?


What I'm getting at is:
You've made it a point to "openly express your sexuality", or in realistic terms, you have chosen to make your sexuality the focal point of your identity.
It's difficult for you to make friends at work.
Too bad.
Not everyone can be a manipulative, schemeing, self-absorbed, likeable, easily-approachable, confrontational, social menace as I often am.
I'm sure you have your own strengths and weaknesses. Use them.

While the tone is getting tetchy to some extent, what on earth do any of the few last posts have to with GLBT* issues in relation to Christianity?

Order, you weren't asked for your personal convictions. I gather what LH is getting at are wider, institutional beliefs and practices, and how these are manifested. Discrimination against gay people--even of you don't practice it or see it--happens. How do I know? Look at teen suicide. Look at the number of kids who are essentially disowned by their families when they come out. Look at the fact that they cannot marry in most places (and how civil unions do not have the same rights as marriage). Look at the number of people who hold positions of responsibility who still think homosexuality is a choice, homosexual sex a sin, homosexual relationships somehow gross or unusual. How many people in congress think that heterosexual sex is sinful?

There are hate groups for everything, of course. But you cannot sit there and argue that discrimination against gays is not worth mentioning (or is just as bad as anti-whitemiddleclassmaleism) when it's so clearly, incredibly, sadly embedded into society. Where gay kids grow up thinking something is wrong with them.

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Originally Posted by Alpha

While the tone is getting tetchy to some extent, what on earth do any of the few last posts have to with GLBT* issues in relation to Christianity?

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Mine had nothing to do with it. In fact, my last post was pure, unadulterated piss-off-ed-ness. So, even though I'm the OP, I have been a very bad OP in the fact that I have not encouraged people to stay on topic.

As far as Order is concerned, he's confusing the fact that I'm posting in this forum in response to or in concert with other topics of this nature. He seems to think that being trans is the only defining facet of my identity, which is patently false. If being trans were the only facet of my identity, I wouldn't be on a page for fans of a certain video game. I think I found this page because I was looking for good spots to grind at in FFV:A, and one of the Google links led here. Furthermore, I think what Order fails to realize is that being trans isn't something one does in a vacuum. Even if it is only one facet of my identity, it is something that affects every aspect of my public life. Everything from background checks, to paper trails, to why my license has an "M" on it. When I transitioned, I didn't have an option to move to a completely different state. I stayed at the same job when I transitioned, and for about seven months after. That point in time in my life created a wonderful place of growth where it concerned my friends (at the time, my family wasn't talking to me). At my job, however, people saw me transition. People saw it as their prerogative to ask me morbid questions about my genitals, or to tell me who I really was or was not, or to explain to me how horrible my decision was because I didn't fit their definition of beauty. I had leaders in various congregations tell me that I was questioning God's sovereignty by suggesting that God made a mistake (though I never made such a claim). So, this isn't the defining facet of my identity: this is the facet of my identity by which I am defined by others.

Now, I'm going to block him, and if this conversation can continue without someone who takes things out of context and looks for reasons to talk down to people, that'd be cool. If not, then a moderator can just lock the thread.

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Order, you weren't asked for your personal convictions.

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Actually, I was.

The fact remains that this thread and the conversation would have gone nowhere and would have died off days ago without my input.
The insults and minimizing of important subjects to the supporters of the OP is intended to put them on the offenseive, rather than having to hear them whine at eachother,

Lets have some friggin conversation. How about a debate where nobody starts crying over mean words?
What I was doing here and have been in the past which has gone comepletely unnoticed is to hear what the underlying beliefs and motivation for bringing up the subject are.
But if I ask straight forward, all I get are more complaining, whiney tone snivelling, lets all hold hands BS.
I want root motives based on personal morals and beliefs backed up by facts and research which draw a reader to a conclusion.

You know what would have been good points to build up to the topic?
Here are some examples:
I was raised chatholic and never really felt like I was part of the church.
Religion never clicked with me.
I always wondered what it would be like to be the opposite sex.
Or from the other side,
I have gone to several churches where a person's sexual orientation is never an issue.
I am christian and have no problem with homosexuality.
I have worked along side gay people at nearly every job I have held and never saw any discrimination toward them, in fact, I saw the opposite. Their rights were more readily protected.

See, nobody got into any detail about any of these topics. Some of them were mentioned, but I guess I'm supposed to just make my own assumptions when someone tells me "gay people are discriminated against". Are you?
Have you seen it?
What makes this an important topic to *you*?

Yeah, I insult people for talking like a damn todler. I also insult people who have a difference of oppinion and people who I agree with and people who I get along with and just about anyone online.
But nobody asks you readily about your beliefs on the topic, challenges you to put it into words so that a part of your moral foundation will be exposed and others can say,
"That makes sense. Thats why he thinks that and I can't say its really wrong."

Nobody talks like that, nobody words things with the same intentions I do.
Here I am accused of being abusive or whatever,
Who actually gave a shit about the topic enough to actually ask what your reasons, beliefs and morals are?

Your missing the forrest for the tree, you gaggle of ignorant lames.

Once your done weeping softly, how about you start reading the purpose of what I write rather than the insults I use to gain attention.

Or, you can just not explain your purpose in creating this thread, not talk about what you would lile to see change and fear exposure of your true morality and beliefs.

God supposidly burned down the cities of Sodom and Gahmorrah.
Care to comment on why it doesn't make a difference to, or why you have made your choices inspite of that?

So I'm going to try to focus back on the discussion that started out, but I'll be honest I really haven't read through this all...obviously I'm sucky at ID discussion and only browsed it. So if I bring up something that has already been answered just tell me to go back and read it or whatever. Anyways to give an idea where I'll be coming from I'm probably more aligned with conservative evangelical Christianity. So it goes without saying that my thoughts here maybe a little outlandish or what have you.

So to start off I want someone to define some things for me so I can get a better handle at what is being discussed here.

When we are talking about GLBT rights are we solely talking about marriage? Or like their ability to serve in the Christian community? Not to get hated on? All of the above?

Secondly is the concern solely about being accepted in the folds of Christianity, I mean wouldn't a Christian's concern be more focused on becoming more like Christ than which church accepts them or not? I mean there a tons of churches that don't associate with themselves over other doctrines before you get to a person's sexuality. I guess what we are going to define as Christianity might clear this up. Are we talking like a simple belief in Jesus or Yaweh or like purposefully serving in the realms of Christianity to further the kingdom of God? I mean there is a difference right, like tons of people would say yeah I believe in God or I'm a Christian but that isn't the same as living out that belief in serving to honor God right? Are we talking Christians that just want to go to church and have their ego stroked and be told God loves them and will give them what they desire or like Christians that strive to become more like Christ and pursue holiness not because they owe God anything but because that is the only right response when understanding he was our propitiation?

If we are going to use the Bible as a text to support either side of the issue are we going to use it in its historical context, because I mean anyone can pull a verse out and mirror read their own thoughts into the text. Heck I'm sure we could even use the same verse out of its context to defend or attack the issue. On a side note, I remember seeing some things about translations and what not. I hold the thought that anyone that really wants to learn and study the bible needs to learn Greek and Hebrew. That being said my Greek isn't that great and I haven't even started into Hebrew yet. So if we are going to use the text I'll try to only use the greek to understand meanings and words better.

In the opening post there was mention of Sodom and Gomorrah, and lovehearty said that their sin was poor hospitality. I'm guessing you say that because in the Gospels Jesus says that it will be better for Sodom than the cities that reject his disciples from visiting? I'm not really sure how you come to that conclusion, because he is just saying that it will be better for those cities and doesn't say anything about that being what their problem was. Also in the Genesis account God had already condemned the city before the two visitors arrived, the fact that they wanted to 'know them' or have relations with them which is used in the next verse relating to Lot's daughters who haven't known a man. So I think we can gather they wanted to get a little frisky with the fellows...now is that really bad hospitality? I think most people would think it pretty sweet if part of the process in touring someplace was to get a free romance out of it. Maybe not like everyone in the city but you know. Also what about Jude 1:7 that says their sin was gross immorality, going after strange flesh...is there another place in the bible that says no what it really is that they were inhospitable?

I saw some posts ending with God is love right? Or something close to that, now yes there is a verse that says that but that isn't all he is. I mean that is some pretty Sunday school make the kids feel OK about themselves stuff. Obviously God is more than just love, he would exhibit all his character in the most perfect sense all the time. So we have to look at God's character. Isn't that like just identifying someone by only one characteristic that they hold to? What this comes down to is that not only is God love but he is also just and holy. That is why there are passages like Psalm 5:4-8 where God is described as someone who hates those who do evil. I mean if God was just love wouldn't the whole idea of Calvary be kinda stupid or pointless? Why would God have to pay a penalty when he wouldn't have a problem with it because he is so loving and that he would just forgive you anyway because he loves you so much. That is why people preach the gospel because it is the accumulation of God's wrath and hate for the sinner and his love and mercy for them expressed at one time.

Lastly, a lot of people were saying how they don't care about who sexes up who...and I think that is a general good rule of thumb but I think we can safely say that God must care a little bit about it or he would have never brought it up in the first place. I guess though if you don't think the Bible is inspired that doesn't really matter to you though because it isn't his words anyway. I mean there are a few texts that talk about marriage and the qualities of a spouse and so forth. As for marriage specifically I can't be the only one that thinks that it must be a little naive to think God is just going to give a stamp of approval on people going through a ceremony where a priest/pastor/ whatever says he does this in the name of God. I mean a blanket reading would give the idea that sex is probably what God counts as cleaving together and joining flesh, getting hitched, or whatever. Hence why there is such stress on sexual purity and how its bad to sleep around and its called adultery to even dwell on those thoughts even if you aren't married. Christ says if any man in his sermon on the mount. He isn't just talking to people that went through the ceremony of a wedding.


...ack this is lengthy anyways hopefully this can stir up some nice discussion and someone can help define stuff so I can get an idea on exactly what is to be discussed here.

To begin, I want to say that I'm cool with outlandish, out-of-the-box, thinking as long as it is based in reality, and able to be reasoned with (even if my thinking and your thinking or anyone else's thinking lines up).

When I talk about GLBT rights, I am referring to any form of discrimination based solely on a GLBT identity. The ability to serve with a congregation does not fall under that category, to me, because they are a religious/faith-based organization. They should have the right to decide who to allow and who not to allow into their fold based on whatever reasoning they want. Even if that reasoning makes no sense to anyone in the outside world. Discrimination in housing, jobs, public accommodations, and marriage, however, in places that aren't temples, mosques, tabernacles, or churches should not happen if we are all indeed equal under the 14th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.

However, I am a Christian, and I understand that there will always be people who abuse the name of Jesus to advocate hate and violence. When I say hate, I don't just mean referring to homosexual behavior as sinful or calling transition a rebellion against God's sovereignty. I'm talking about pastors and other Church leaders who call for violence against the GLBT community. I'm talking about "Christian" organizations that try to make GLBT people criminals for simply being GLBT people. Hopefully, that explains a bit more what I am trying to say.

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Originally Posted by Imposter

Are we talking like a simple belief in Jesus or Yaweh or like purposefully serving in the realms of Christianity to further the kingdom of God?

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I was talking about the latter. I serve actively in a UCC congregation, and they really hit the head on the nail on the whole "Love your neighbor" thing. I'd say there's an even bigger focus on people outside the Church than inside, and it's not necessarily about getting butts in pews, but about serving people in physical and spiritual need. You are right that there are certain denominations that won't associate with one another (which I think is backwards, considering that we all should believe in Jesus Christ who died for the forgiveness of sins and rose from death to bring us new life... right?) However, I'm not opposed to different congregations and denominations having different ideas and different callings. If anything, I'd say that every denomination has a piece of the truth and some failings. However, the Church has been built with human hands, so though it was meant to be the living embodiment of Christ in this world, it is filled with the frailties of human kind. As far as being trans and serving with a congregation goes, I had two options: dwell in my self-loathing and insanity, or have faith that God was going to deliver me from my pain and confusion. The latter led me to transition, and it made all the difference for me. However, that is not to say that I think everyone should follow my path. It was the one that was right for me. To say that being gay or trans is normal only goes as far as individual people: it is NORMAL for some people to be gay, bi, or trans, where as it is NORMAL for everyone else to be (mostly) heterosexual. Faith comes into this discussion, I think, when deciding what to do with it rather than just labeling all GLBT immoral based on a couple of Paul's laundry lists that really don't measure up to an accurate description of the average gay person. If anything, I think putting an end to struggle in one's personal life is a wonderful step in becoming more like Christ. If that includes a monogamous, committed relationship between two people who happen to be the same gender: so be it. As God said of Adam, "It is not good for people to be alone." So, I'm talking about Christians with a passion for service. Usually, GLBT Christians fall under that category. I think we have a greater fervor than most Christians because most of us have lived some point in our lives without love or hope that our lives would get better. Even more ironic is the fact that we stand on the outside when it comes to most of Christian life, and we're told all manner of mean things by Christians, but we still keep coming back to Jesus with open arms ready to serve.

Anywho, I know you posted more, but I'll be back later to finish up.