Amnesty.. Pro or Against?

[noxious.sunshine]

So there's a large ... Thing (for lack of a better word) about whether we should grant Illegals Amnesty here in the U.S.

The law is trying to be passed now. I know the Dream Act got shut down a couple of years ago, and then the law in AZ got passed that gave Cops & other legal authorities the right to check the legal status of Immigrants.

SO... Views? Thoughts?

I'm personally on the fence about the situation because I can see both sides of the argument.
And I was quite shocked to see that Jay's brother-in-law posted something about being against it when they're all Flips and there are so many Phillipinos (eff you spell checker) who marry U.S. Army Soldiers not only for legalization purposes, but for money as well.

[Heartless Angel]

As it stands, I'm against. While I am capable of sympathy, I reject it when making decisions. And without sympathy, I see absolutely no positive outcomes to be had from this. It'll just encourage more illegal immigration. Of course I'm not saying we should hunt them all down and deport them either. Our economy right now unfortunately kinda relies on illegal immigrants doing jobs for a fraction of minimum wage. We as a nation have become addicted to the low prices we can get because of these cheap workers, much like we tolerate outsourcing. That loss of jobs doesn't become a problem until WE'RE the one standing in the unemployment line. Our addiction to cheap shit is slowly ****ing us, illegals are definitely a part of the problem, but it's an addiction you can't just quit cold turkey. Overall as a nation, we're not in a position to be trying to be charitable and helping the rest of the world, we're in fairly deep shit ourselves at the moment, now is the time to focus on taking care of our own, not our neighbors.

[Alpha]

No one likes illegal immigration. What you need is a way to make it easier and faster to become legal. When one is illegal, you cannot claim benefits (material or otherwise), and are ripe for exploitation. That is the problem, not that people have immigrated illegally.

What is illegal immigration but the labour market sorting itself out? People who are willing to do jobs that locals won't, or that they are willing to do for a fraction of the price? I like when things are cheap. I don't like when things are made off the back of exploitation. That's why I support it being very easy to make illegal immigrants, legal immigrants. Then they can receive minimum wage, not be forced to work absurd hours, get holiday pay, vote.

When someone says, "but they are pushing wages down", what they are missing is that the person who pushed those wages down has probably just received the pay rise of the century. I used to work at a supermarket. Two of the men who were employed to stack shelves were doctors. Legitimate doctors (they weren't illegal immigrants...that's kind hard when you're surrounded by thousands of kilometres of ocean). They just didn't have NZ accreditations. Both have now gone on to get those after several years of stacking shelves, which they considered good money for the kind of work it was... and they are now general practitioners earning $100k+, which is fantastic money by any standard.

A lot of wasted resources are thrown at finding and deporting people, who are just being forced back to go somewhere where they are worse off. Who is that benefiting?

[Sinister]

Okay, yeah, but America doesn't get that, Alpha. They don't. So help me God, it was just like...idk some weeks ago where I heard talk of the minimum wage being increased. There is such a fatal dose of ass-about-face when it comes to economic decisions in America. As for making the legitimization process faster and easier...no one wants to do that, because it's giving in. What they don't understand is the process of actually doing ANYTHING about Illegal Immigrants vs just legitimizing them is the difference between paying out the ass for some sort of enforcement policy vs getting a whole new taxable element of citizens who actually have a work ethic.

-Sin

[noxious.sunshine]

Au Contraire on the benefits. I will say this, and it pisses me off to no end... They can have a baby here in the U.S. and it's automatically a U.S. citizen. Those parents automatically can apply (& qualify) for food stamps, get their children on WIC and state-funded healthcare. I've seen -that- happen many times, living amongst Mexicans.

That's not to say I'm an ungrateful or racist person. Obviously not. My Ex in Phoenix - his family supported me a lot during my time of great need back then (when he effed me over). They took me in like one of their own and made sure I was ok.

But later on when I had my daughter, and I went to apply for benefits, they told me that I made too much money - even though I was a struggling single mother working 2 jobs & going to school with no child support. They counted my student loan money as part of my income.

The only benefits that Illegals -may- fail to claim is their Income Taxes. They can pay in all day, but when tax season comes around, unless they have a child here, they can't file. Correct me if I'm wrong though, on that one. I know in AZ, you can only claim 2 children on your taxes. My "Ex sister in law", Vanessa let her step-mother claim 2 of her children. Granted, the step-mother is legal, so it went through. She couldn't file because she was illegal herself.

And no, it isn't just Illegals taking advantage of that system, and I'm sorry to drag it off-topic like that. There are millions of people who don't deserve the extra help and still get it anyway.

BACK to the point. Alpha is right on making it easier, IMO.

I worked in ESL, as I've stated before. So many people come to this country, risking their lives to better support their children & families back home (which I whole-heartedly disagree with, considering my dad worked his ass off to give his kids everything we wanted, hence never seeing him and all I cared about was Quality Time). And I understand it. And to generalize it, the further South you go, the worse the country ... Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc. I -do- understand that these people want better lives for their children and themselves.

It's the fact that they come over here, get settled in, and a lot of them have more babies over here, creating more stress on our economy.
Or Parents smuggle their children over the border, hence pretty much robbing them of any chance they may have for a real future here legally. Yes, they can go back and attempt to do things the right way to become a legal citizen, but the fact is - it's expensive. And your application can be denied at any point for any reason.

And yes, these people -do- come over here and work jobs for less than minimum wage and -no- benefits because there's no one else willing to do it.

I honestly wish the Dream Act had been passed, but the Amnesty, like I said before, I'm not so sure about. I just wish that they would make it easier for Immigrants to gain citizenship here.

Read "Enrique's Journey" by Sonia Nazario and "Coyotes" by Ted Conniver. I've actually had an email convo with Sonia Nazario about her book. It's very insightful.

[Alpha]

This discussion reminded me of an article I read today: Queen's speech to feature new curbs on migrants from EU | UK news | The Guardian

I find it ironic, coming from a German, married to a Greek, who is the UK's the whole freakin' Commonwealth's biggest welfare recipient.

@N.S.: My cousin was actually born in Canada, when his family were on holiday. He has dual NZ-Canadian citizenship as a result, when all other members of my family are NZ citizens only. I struggle to see how that is a bad thing for anyone. He's very intelligent. He's younger than me, but he's following his brother's footsteps, who is currently studying for a PhD at the University of Chicago. It would not be in Canada's interests to cut that off.

And the idea that immigrants moving and then having all these babies like left right and centre? What is bad about that? The more the merrier... this coming from a country with stagnating population growth (only positive because of immigration) and only a few years off from hitting the fan where there will be a smaller and smaller proportion of people between the ages of 15 and 65 than outside of that bracket. America has immigration (legal and illegal) to thank for not being in the same aging population crisis as Japan, Western Europe and Australasia.

At any rate, my ancestors were illegal immigrants. I have no idea what right they had to pick up shop from Scotland and Ireland, and buy land for a few shillings, blankets and guns on the other side of the planet when people had been living here for 1,000 years. That's what they did, but I'm pretty happy now. Kinda have to assume that trend will only continue for anyone else who tries it on.

[noxious.sunshine]

lol Ironic indeed. Parker's dad was an Illegal (he got deported while I was pregnant. I didn't know.). And Jay got married to another Philippino woman to help her get her papers (and for the extra dough, since he's military).. Our Roomie did the same thing. And of course Francisco is Mexican (he has permanent residency) & Jay is Flip. I'm pretty much all Irish.

........... I forgot what my point to all of that was. Eff me.

~ AUTO-MERGED POSTS ~

Oh and the increase of minimum wage probably is in correlation to inflation.

And again, I agree with you, Sin.

Americans have gotten lazy, they don't want to work, and yes, the rich continue getting richer while the rest of us are drowning.



dunno why i thought of this, but it gets a chuckle outta me everytime lmao

~ AUTO-MERGED POSTS ~

t's a bird.
It's a plane.
No, it's a wetback.

Sung:

He came by air, but not by plane
He came in his ship all the way from Krypton
and it seems he's not an American.
Rather, he is just like me, undocumented.

So you see, Border Patrol, he shouldn't work
because even though it hurts, Superman is an illegal alien.
He's a journalist, well so am I
and he didn't go into the Army, oh what a deal.

And he is blonde, blue-eyed, and well-built
and I'm dark, chubby, and short.
But at least I have already marched (in the military)
with the smuggler I had to pay when I crossed (the border).

He didn't comply with military service,
he doesn't pay taxes and he acts like a judge.
He doesn't have a green card nor a license to fly,
and I bet he doesn't even have a social security card.

We have to deport Superman from this region
and if possible return him to Krypton.
Where are the immigration authorities when you need them?
What's new, Mr. Racism, in the nation?

[noxious.sunshine]

This discussion reminded me of an article I read today: Queen's speech to feature new curbs on migrants from EU | UK news | The Guardian

I find it ironic, coming from a German, married to a Greek, who is the UK's the whole freakin' Commonwealth's biggest welfare recipient.

@N.S.: My cousin was actually born in Canada, when his family were on holiday. He has dual NZ-Canadian citizenship as a result, when all other members of my family are NZ citizens only. I struggle to see how that is a bad thing for anyone. He's very intelligent. He's younger than me, but he's following his brother's footsteps, who is currently studying for a PhD at the University of Chicago. It would not be in Canada's interests to cut that off.

And the idea that immigrants moving and then having all these babies like left right and centre? What is bad about that? The more the merrier... this coming from a country with stagnating population growth (only positive because of immigration) and only a few years off from hitting the fan where there will be a smaller and smaller proportion of people between the ages of 15 and 65 than outside of that bracket. America has immigration (legal and illegal) to thank for not being in the same aging population crisis as Japan, Western Europe and Australasia.

At any rate, my ancestors were illegal immigrants. I have no idea what right they had to pick up shop from Scotland and Ireland, and buy land for a few shillings, blankets and guns on the other side of the planet when people had been living here for 1,000 years. That's what they did, but I'm pretty happy now. Kinda have to assume that trend will only continue for anyone else who tries it on.

It isn't the fact that they're having babies here, it's the fact that many of them leave the families they already -have- in an attempt to better their lives financially in the U.S., then go on to have more children here in the U.S. - children that they can't properly take care of. It's not just about the legality of it, but it creates an extremely hostile family dynamic. Children left behind attempt to make it to the U.S. to be with the parent(s) who left - risking getting robbed, beaten, raped, lost, and killed. And of course Deported should they get caught. The few who -do- make it over and back to Mom/Dad discover that they've made a new family, a new life. They become jealous, resentful, etc.

And as stated before, the farther South you go from Mexico, the worse the country is economically & the harder it is to make it here - Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc. Chiapas is one of -the- most dangerous states (if not at the top of the list) in Mexico. Juarez and Guadalajara are also up there, I know, along with many other border towns. But for Central Americans, Chiapas is the hardest state to get through. The gangs are among the worst there, as well as La Migra and the Policia - who collectively bribe, steal, kill, & beat those coming from the South. This can happen in every state in Mexico, but because the main form of travel is the train tops, there are specific states that immigrants go through - mainly on the more central-western side.

Aside from that, I've seen many who have babies and instead of working, simply live off of the government. On the other side of -that- coin, though, it's difficult. For those who are genuinely trying and -need- the help, it's nearly impossible to get the help needed (as was my own situation that I mentioned), but once you -do- qualify for those benefits, God Forbid you go out and get a job - they'll snatch those same benefits away in a heartbeat.

WIC was the only program Parker & I could qualify for. And back when we were on it, there wasn't a whole lot on the list of approved items that you could get for Pregnant & Nursing mothers & their children aside from juices (which are loaded with sugar anyway), milk/formula, and cereal. They've broadened their list, though, but children can only be on this specific program until age 5. I took Parker off of it long before that simply because it was pointless to me to waste food that neither she nor I ate anyway (aside from the milk for her once I stopped nursing).

There's nothing wrong at -all- with being a Dual Citizen. I think it's awesome. I've mulled over getting Parker dual citizenship in Mexico for whatever reason. According to my dad, you have to like be a doctor or something though (which I highly doubt is true lol)...

I myself am only 2nd or 3rd generation "American" - my great grandparents came over on a boat, I assume, during the Potato Famine in Ireland. And yes, technically, here, we all started off as illegal immigrants (save for those who are Native American - which I have a -teeny- bit of on my dad's side of the family).

Anywho. I don't think it's going to be a problem that will be solved anytime soon. If the government grants Amnesty to those already here, it's only going to encourage more to risk the journey to get here, because it'll give them the idea that they too should be granted Amnesty.

And another point.. Our illegal immigrant population doesn't totally help our economy - it helps the countries that these people are from more than anything. Sure it's cheap labor, but many of them don't pay taxes (if they work in fields or construction and only get paid in cash) and the money goes right back to the families in these people's native countries and helps -their- families and -their- economies. Yet their own governments do little to nothing to help those in need.

These are the things that people risk by coming here:

Enrique's Journey - The Book by Sonia Nazario


Annnnnnd I'm talking myself in circles. Sorry.

[Odin1199]

Who cares at this point? US and Canada are now a conglomerate of nations, refugees and so on. It's not like there's something to preserve anyways. You have your US culture, your Chinese, Russian, Indian, Italian, etc cultures. What's wrong with that? Nothing. The more, the better. Jobs are getting outsourced anyways, so it doesn't matter at this point if more people emigrate. The problem is getting the jobs back into US and Canada and building a better infrastructure and internal economy. Free Trade did way more harm than good, imo.

[noxious.sunshine]

I agree, it's a lost cause. I'm just saying that not only does it -do- cause an economical strain on the US & Canada - because of those who have babies over here and just don't work (because that automatically grants them the "right" to get on government-funded welfare), but it also causes a lot of strain on the families left behind - especially children - regardless of whether or not Mom or Dad sends money to buy them nicer things or buys things and has them shipped back. The child(ren) develops a sense of abandonment - even if/when they're reunited with the parent who left.

I understand what it means to leave a child/family behind to help them have a better life financially. I pretty much grew up without my own parents because they worked so hard all the time and I never saw them. I was pawned off on different families while my parents were gone in the truck for 2 years before I finally made the decision to move in with my sister here in Nashville. I would've much rather had them home and present in my life and be broke than have had to grow up without them. The grass isn't greener on the other side.

Anyway, but because so many parents leave children behind in the southern countries, it makes them more susceptible to things like joining a gang, or getting pregnant at an early age when it can't be afforded by any means and falling deeper into hardships like that.

So it isn't just an economical issue, it's familial as well.

But back to economical standpoint, a lot of the illegal immigrants can't and don't work our typical jobs. Sure, they work in Mexican / other Hispanic ethnic restaurants & grocery stores, but most of them are our nannies, housekeepers, and the people who pick the fruit and vegetables we eat that're grown domestically. Many of us aren't willing to do those jobs, so on that point, yes, we do need them. They're willing to work for little pay, grueling conditions, with no healthcare.

I'm not saying Immigration is wrong. I'm just asking, -should- Amnesty be granted to those who've already crossed over illegally?

again, I'm talking myself in circles, because I can easily see both sides of the fence. And like I said, it -is- becoming a lost cause - we might as well open up both borders and just let people come and go as they please (within reason, of course) and help out everyone.