Are Vanille and Fang lesbians?

[Unknown Entity]

ITHANK YOU!Thats what im saying, Im not wishing they were lesbians im just saying why would it be such crazy idea?

No one is saying there's anything wrong or crazy with them being lesbians either. Just a lot of people feel that chucking in a lesbian couple doesn't make sense in the story.

I think Square Enix wanted to stir things up, and made only assumptions but never actually said it. name another girl duo in any final fantasy that were like that.

Square Enix didn't stir anything up at all in regards to their sexuality - fans did. The reason why it'd be impossible to name a similar female duo in a Final Fantasy game is because there isn't one. Also, when has there been an aggressive female lead? When has there been a spoiled teenage "brat"? When has there been a chocobo loving, token black dude?

Fang was a very masculine and tough woman, who was over protective of vanille...Like a lover, not a friend. and i seen someone said something about the picture being in her place in Oerba...Im sorry but I only have one picture in my room in my house and its not of any of my friends. its of my GIRLFRIEND!

I can name many masculine and tough women, it doesn't mean they're lesbians. I don't recall the photograph from when I played, but it could be a family photograph as there's no bedrooms in Oerbra. It's one large room with bunk beds tucked at the back. Anyone can take a photograph of anything, pop it in a frame and treasure it - it doesn't have to be one of a girlfriend.

[Joyful Blue]

No one is saying there's anything wrong or crazy with them being lesbians either. Just a lot of people feel that chucking in a lesbian couple doesn't make sense in the story.

Sazh having a chocobo living in his hair doesn't make too much sense either in terms of storyline, that didn't stop Square from throwing it in though.

Square Enix didn't stir anything up at all in regards to their sexuality - fans did.

I'm pretty sure Square doesn't operate as a hive mind, no doubt the members of staff had their own thoughts on the relationship between the two characters whether it be strictly platonic or otherwise.

I can name many masculine and tough women, it doesn't mean they're lesbians. I don't recall the photograph from when I played, but it could be a family photograph as there's no bedrooms in Oerbra. It's one large room with bunk beds tucked at the back. Anyone can take a photograph of anything, pop it in a frame and treasure it - it doesn't have to be one of a girlfriend.

bed·room (-ro̵̅o̅m′)
noun
a room with a bed, for sleeping in

That sounds like a bedroom to me!

Sorry to pick out your post their Entity but it was simply because it was the most recent one, I'm not quite sure why people are so adamant over taking one side of this "debate" though. Yes, I'm aware this is a forum and discussion is somewhat important to one but there seems to be a very blinkered view from both sides of the argument here. The truth is fan interpretation is always going to be different as will peoples very vivid imaginations. To state point blank that the characters were or were not something is quite simply wrong as the point is we'll never know.

I find it pretty funny as I'm sure there wouldn't be anywhere near as much concern if this thread was about the secret midnight meetings between Sazh and Snow that were clearly going on under the radar. Or did nobody else spot that one?

[Unknown Entity]

Sazh having a chocobo living in his hair doesn't make too much sense either in terms of storyline, that didn't stop Square from throwing it in though.

You misunderstand; the relationship doesn't make sense, not the characters.

I'm pretty sure Square doesn't operate as a hive mind, no doubt the members of staff had their own thoughts on the relationship between the two characters whether it be strictly platonic or otherwise.

I didn't doubt that they'd have their own thoughts.

That sounds like a bedroom to me!

Indeed it does! But what I noticed was that the rooms (or bedrooms, if you prefer) are very informal of their purpose. There's a livingroom and kitchen you could reach by just sticking a leg out of bed. It's slightly different, duncha think?

Sorry to pick out your post their* Entity but it was simply because it was the most recent one, I'm not quite sure why people are so adamant over taking one side of this "debate" though.

It's alright. I'd prefer you to slash up my posts than some of the other members.
*Lol at you getting the dictionary out on me.

Yes, I'm aware this is a forum and discussion is somewhat important to one but there seems to be a very blinkered view from both sides of the argument here. The truth is fan interpretation is always going to be different as will peoples very vivid imaginations. To state point blank that the characters were or were not something is quite simply wrong as the point is we'll never know.

What's the point of debates on a forum if you can't come back to the thread to add in further input? In the same way others gave their views, I'm giving mine.

I find it pretty funny as I'm sure there wouldn't be anywhere near as much concern if this thread was about the secret midnight meetings between Sazh and Snow that were clearly going on under the radar. Or did nobody else spot that one?

No one would because Snow is engaged, and Sazh seemed to have a thing going with Vanille for a while.

[Joyful Blue]

You misunderstand; the relationship doesn't make sense, not the characters.

Well, like I said in my first post in this thread, I didn't get the impression that they were in a "relationship" so to speak, but I don't think it's that ridiculous for someone to suggest that they are. That may well be due to the fact that in FF communities and such do seem to have a like of pairing characters whether it be plausible or not, perhaps I'm just desensitised to it. Anyways, I'm curious as to why you think it doesn't make sense. We know very little of their background before their time with the rest of the party and we're only given a brief insight into their relationship while on their last focus.

Indeed it does! But what I noticed was that the rooms (or bedrooms, if you prefer) are very informal of their purpose. There's a livingroom and kitchen you could reach by just sticking a leg out of bed. It's slightly different, duncha think?

I do think! That one was just me being stupid for an ickle bit of fun. If we go by the FFXIII world then most people don't even show evidence of having somewhere to live thanks to the lack of any real towns.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to pick out your post their Entity

Woe is me!

What's the point of debates on a forum if you can't come back to the thread to add in further input? In the same way others gave their views, I'm giving mine.

Nah, I hear ya, that's the impression I was kind of hoping to avoid giving. It just seems that a lot of the opinions here are based on facts that don't exist. I'll point out again that I don't think there was any monkey business between the two of them but do I have any evidence to suggest otherwise? Hell no. When people come out with some of the usual FF drivel of a character being someone else's "stepchild of one's first cousin once removed divided by four carry the one" then yeah, I can understand why people would just tell them to shut up and it's case closed. Unless I'm missing something (which isn't entirely unthinkable) there are probably cases to back up the opinion that the two are romantically involved.

No one would because Snow is engaged, and Sazh seemed to have a thing going with Vanille for a while.

Elton John was married for a few years, Snow being engaged proves nothing!

[Unknown Entity]

It's difficult to have evidence handy when there's hardly any evidence to back up either claim.

We know very little of their background before their time with the rest of the party and we're only given a brief insight into their relationship while on their last focus.

We don't? Okay. I believe it was six-hundred years before the event of the game that there was this huge war between Cocoon and Pulse. I don't remember much about the war, but it's mostly explained in a show Sazh and Vanille watch shorty after they part ways from the others. During that war, Fang and Vanille's families were killed and they were sent to an orphanage in Oerbra. That's where they met and they became close, and it explains why they've got different names.

Sure, this no more or no less supports either that they're lovers or not, but it displays that they had no one else. Throughout the game Fang and Vanille have this constant thing going on about family, and how the others in the party are their new family. So we gather that they just want to be part of a family with others, as opposed to wanting to stay together as a "couple".

"Listen, you're not alone anymore. We have a new family now. We stick together, you hear me?"

In the ending, they had to leave their "family" in order to complete their Focus, as they'd failed to complete it the first time (or more so, Fang wasn't strong enough to complete it, and if I remember correctly, is the reason why Cocoon has a huge hole in the side of it). In the end, they had to complete their Focus together as just one of them wouldn't be strong enough to do it. They're both highly protective of each other and their family, so they did this as a final act to protect everyone.

Their last focus and the insight you get simply displays how close they are. They'd known each other for centuries, and had built up a strong sisterly bond. Just because they're close, doesn't mean they're together.

There's no evidence of a romantic relationship at all. So why have people developed this idea that they're a lesbian couple? Argue all you want that I have no evidence to back up my claims that they're not, but if Square had wanted them to be lesbians, A) It would be much, much more obvious (Rosa/Cecil, Cloud/Aeris/Tifa, Squall/Riona, Irvine/Selphie, Tidus/Yuna, Wakka/Lulu, Balthier/Fran (debatable, like this topic), Snow/Serah); and B) there'd be huge controversy on the matter, as it'd be the first same-sex relationship in Final Fantasy - a HUGE franchise which influences hundreds of thousands of fans around the world.

[Heartless Angel]

They probably intentionally avoided giving clear evidence either way. Over the years I've come to notice, Square enjoys confusing us. Or maybe they just though 4chan's Yuri board needed a new topic of discussion, who the Hell knows.

They strike me as more sisters than lovers, but I can see it being either way. I don't think they're directly related to one another, the Oerba part of the name seems to refer to their home. Their bond is very strong, so it's unlikely they've only known each other for a short time, and Vanille is fairly young, so one can reasonably assume they're childhood friends at least. Since they're both orphans, they could have very easily formed a bond similar to those of sisters. The apparent age difference may have led Fang to take more of the motherly/protective older sister role. The sisterly/protective vibe is also sometimes characteristic of a dom/sub relationship, so they could very well be lesbians. But again, with no clear cut evidence for either position, the logical thing is to withold judgement until such time appropriate evidence exists, which may be never. Til then, I'd at least like to PRETEND they're lesbians ;]

[Joyful Blue]

It's difficult to have evidence handy when there's hardly any evidence to back up either claim.

That's my point in a nut shell really. Like we've both said, this is a forum so for there to be no opinions present from either side would kind of defeat the object, but the way certain viewpoints are being dismissed seems a little crass as there simply isn't enough evidence to back up either claim. If someone interprets their relationship as a romantic one then who are we to tell them they're wrong? t's not the differing viewpoints I don't get, it's the blinkered views that don't allow any leeway.

The bottom line for me is that we don't know either way, so for someone to simply say that a viewpoint is flat-out wrong doesn't cut it with me.

I believe it was six-hundred years before the event of the game that there was this huge war between Cocoon and Pulse. I don't remember much about the war, but it's mostly explained in a show Sazh and Vanille watch shorty after they part ways from the others. During that war, Fang and Vanille's families were killed and they were sent to an orphanage in Oerbra. That's where they met and they became close, and it explains why they've got different names.

Sure, this no more or no less supports either that they're lovers or not, but it displays that they had no one else. Throughout the game Fang and Vanille have this constant thing going on about family, and how the others in the party are their new family. So we gather that they just want to be part of a family with others, as opposed to wanting to stay together as a "couple".

Well, you basically said what I would have done in the first line of your second paragraph there: this still doesn't support either argument. We all know about the "don't drop the soap" joke in prisons and where does this come from? When people are lonely they'll get what they can. Of course the whole debate of differing views on sex between men and women could arise from this point and that's is definitely not something I want to even think of talking about. What I'm saying is though that, well I probably don't need to explain it. They were together a long time with nobody else like you say. I'm not saying something did or didn't happen between the two of them and whether indeed it be through human instinct or not but....meh. Yeah I really don't need to expand on that.

In the ending, they had to leave their "family" in order to complete their Focus, as they'd failed to complete it the first time (or more so, Fang wasn't strong enough to complete it, and if I remember correctly, is the reason why Cocoon has a huge hole in the side of it). In the end, they had to complete their Focus together as just one of them wouldn't be strong enough to do it. They're both highly protective of each other and their family, so they did this as a final act to protect everyone.

Their last focus and the insight you get simply displays how close they are. They'd known each other for centuries, and had built up a strong sisterly bond. Just because they're close, doesn't mean they're together.

You're totally right, but again this isn't ruling it out either. In fact all of that could well be attributed to a physical relationship just as easily. I'm trying to play devil's advocate here as I'm with you on all your viewpoints.

There's no evidence of a romantic relationship at all. So why have people developed this idea that they're a lesbian couple?

I would say the reason for that is one of two reasons: they either have an over-active imagination, or there is evidence there, even if it is subtle. I do remember seeing people on the likes of IGN etc. convinced that they were lesbians and like I said, as it was before I bought the game it led me to believe they were going to when I played it, as in it wasn't something up for debate or anything. Some of these people clearly though that there was something between them beyond friendship and there must be some reason for it. I can't tell you what it is though because I'm not them.

Argue all you want that I have no evidence to back up my claims that they're not, but if Square had wanted them to be lesbians, A) It would be much, much more obvious (Rosa/Cecil, Cloud/Aeris/Tifa, Squall/Riona, Irvine/Selphie, Tidus/Yuna, Wakka/Lulu, Balthier/Fran (debatable, like this topic), Snow/Serah);

Why would it have been more obvious? All those relationships you've listed have been with different sex couples and so it isn't a "taboo" subject as such. Surely a little more subtlety is just what the doctor ordered in this kind of situation? I would argue from a personal viewpoint that FFXIII may not have the strongest plot or fully realised environment, but it has by far the most well-rounded characters in terms of realism. I hate Snow and Hope with a passion, but I can't deny that they're good characters ad their personality really shines through. In that sense I think Square is entirely capable of writing in a more controversial(?) story along these lines without having to shout it out from the rooftops.

and B) there'd be huge controversy on the matter, as it'd be the first same-sex relationship in Final Fantasy - a HUGE franchise which influences hundreds of thousands of fans around the world.

Well like I said, there were a fair few people talking about it before I'd even played the game and well, it's certainly got us talking. I wouldn't be likely to spend this much time telling someone they can or can't revive Aeris....again.

They probably intentionally avoided giving clear evidence either way. Over the years I've come to notice, Square enjoys confusing us. Or maybe they just though 4chan's Yuri board needed a new topic of discussion, who the Hell knows.

I'm not quite sure I'd go that far, and I fear for the future of FF if their staff frequent 4chan! I'm with you on the fact that Square do like to leave loose ends...loose, so that's why I don't think you can be 100% sure of anything with that crazy bunch.

[Angel of Iniquity]

If I knew people would get this offended, I would never had posted this...>.>
Where I live, almost 60% of females are Bi, so I am used to seeing subtle relationship cues, plus i am an acting studying psychologist, but then again, can't try therapy on Video Games lol.

[Unknown Entity]

If I knew people would get this offended, I would never had posted this...>.>
Where I live, almost 60% of females are Bi, so I am used to seeing subtle relationship cues, plus i am an acting studying psychologist, but then again, can't try therapy on Video Games lol.

And that's what's making me laugh: no one is offended.

I'm open minded about sexuality/bisexual/pansexual/whatever, and I still don't see it with those two. I don't think it matters what sexuality the player is either. I'm not offended that anyone would think that they are at all - if they are, then great for them. I just don't think they are because I didn't pick up on anything remotely "more than friends" with Fang and Vanille, and I'm curious as to why people have gotten that impression.

Also, therapy doesn't work on video games very well. You're working with ideas someone else has created, and monitoring a character that doesn't exist.

Either way, I like the thread. Nice break from the Cloud/Aeris/Tifa thing. xD

[Dan558]

The whole "They are lesbians" thing is purely for fan fiction writers who stretch their clearly sister-like relationship into exaggerated fantasy. I've seen women many times do way more suggestive things yet are not even bisexual (people these days are retarded but that's not the point here...).

Maybe more will be seen in this FFXIII-2 that could show some more concrete proof of either arguement.

[joleine taylor]

No Not lesbians or lovers either sisters or very close friends. And respect to victoria for her hard hitting comments you told those boys you go girl!!!