A Very Interesting Theory...(Spoilers for sure)

[Acheron]

*Another warning....this entire thread is going to be filled with spoilers. So if you haven't finished FFVIII entirely, you might want to avoid further reading of this topic. But if you haven't finished FFVIII then uh....yeah.*

With that being said, here's the theory....Squall's Dead - a theory of what really happens in Final Fantasy VIII

After having read this theory over and over again, I feel that the authors make some really strong points. They do however, also make some points that are not so strong and feel rather dismissive as they might provide contrary evidence towards their argument.

The Strong Points of the Theory:

1. Squall's wound and subsequent revival

- This is one of the stronger pieces of evidence that the authors provide and wasn't something I questioned until now. Why exactly would Edea heal Squall? What purpose would he have to be alive? Would she really do it just to placate Seifer and allow him to toy with Squall? He isn't some font of knowledge and holds nothing of value as far as intel goes. But I never questioned that for a moment when I played through. The authors claim that Squall is a threat to Edea but at this point in the game, he isn't even that. You could argue many things about this action: Edea broke through Ultimecia's control to help Squall, Seifer pushed to keep him alive etc....but really when you think of it....why would she do any of that?

2. Squall and Rinoa: Too Perfect?

- I don't feel like I need to elaborate on this anymore than the authors do. Calling the relationship between the two a perfect fantasy seems to be right on the point. Especially when you think about how Rinoa speaks about Seifer and her feelings for him.

3. The Ending

- Once again, the authors do a far better job speaking about this than I ever could.

However....The Weak Points:

1. Moombas and NORG

- Simply dismissing Moombas because they look like lions and appear out of nowhere is a little thin for evidence. But in their defense, the authors do claim that these Moombas appear after the moment where Squall would have "died." But as for NORG, the authors falter as they say "there are no hints presented in the story to suggest this sort of twist was coming."

Well uh, duh, that's what a plot twist is.

NORG isn't exactly a plot twist for the ages but just because it wasn't explained doesn't mean it that it should be considered unbelievable. Think about it. Would you want 99% of the evidence before the plot twist is revealed? No. Because then it wouldn't be a twist at all, it would be an expected and known event. They do make a good point with the fact that NORG isn't discussed once again during the story; but isn't that because Cid doesn't want a severe loss in morale among the SeeD and students? Plus, NORG really does not have any purpose past this twist.

2. Fantasy Elements

-Well, the series is called Final Fantasy for a reason. Airships, monsters, none of these are new elements to the series. I think because the world in which VIII takes place in is more futuristic than other installments and does not provide the same diversity in races, the authors tend to group that into unbelievable events.

So, what do you all think? I do agree with the authors that the creators of the game didn't intend for it to be interpreted this way, but if they did, think they would ever admit it? It would have to be one of the greatest secrets pulled off in series, if not video game history.

[Dodie16]

I seen this before in another thread:

http://thefinalfantasy.net/forums/fi...07-dreams.html

It was pretty interesting to read about though, but I honestly can't add much more than that, because theories on stuff like this is just exactly that. Theories. Not proof. If it was true, then it certainly would explain an awful lot that needed explanation within the game. But I don't buy any of it to be fact.

[smurphy]

Damn that other thread was prominent a few weeks ago and even since then I have not been able to get the image of a faceless Squall out of my head. Agree with Dodie, its just pure speculation cos theres nowhere near enough weight behind the theory.

[Maskie]

I heard a theory that Rinoa turns into Ultimecia in the future. The only real evidence is that in Dissidia Ultimemcia's weapons are named after Rinoa's and her line to Squall a the beginning of a fight is to ask him to dance. Kind of odd. 8 does drop a hint when Rinoa get the Sorceress powers though.

[Ragtime]

That was very interesting (both the squall and ash theories) but i just think that some people want to make the game/story so much more than it is. Admittedly, it is a believable theory, but why would anyone make a story so cryptic that nearly everyone misses (especially in Pokemon, which is aimed at kids). I'm sure you've all seen the FF VII theory about Jenova I just think the REAL story is the one makers overtly presented to us, so just enjoy the game and dont over think it.

I heard a theory that Rinoa turns into Ultimecia in the future. The only real evidence is that in Dissidia Ultimemcia's weapons are named after Rinoa's and her line to Squall a the beginning of a fight is to ask him to dance. Kind of odd. 8 does drop a hint when Rinoa get the Sorceress powers though.

Now this is a theory which i can believe because it is possible and it isn't as farfetched as the other ones.

[cenarius]

I heard a theory that Rinoa turns into Ultimecia in the future. The only real evidence is that in Dissidia Ultimemcia's weapons are named after Rinoa's and her line to Squall a the beginning of a fight is to ask him to dance. Kind of odd. 8 does drop a hint when Rinoa get the Sorceress powers though.

Nah, the fact is Rinoa is not Ultimecia, as we already knew, the 2 big theories : Squall's death, and Rinoa = Ultimecia has come out along time before Dissidia Fantasy was public. Ofcourse, Square Enix has already known about them, so that in Dissidia they make Ultimecia's weapon as Rinoa's, to strengthen the argument in those 2 theories. The author's purpose is to make a deeper and deeper impressive of FFVIII in the FF Fan club for as long time as possible, nothing more.

@Did any one of you send an email of the question about those 2 theories to Square Enix?
And if you did, you think they will answer or not?

[DreamCatcher]

the theory is kinda...weird and confusing. to me at least it made only more new questions rather than answer the old ones. so, if it is true that squall dies, i dont understand the ending amv. if everything after disc1 was a dream, after the final battle he really dies, considering all the flash backs(life passes before him).But if he dies there then he's dead, and dead people dont dream on, they are dead. why would he dream being on the garden with everyone else, first he wouldnt be able, i repeat:he's dead at that point, like totally dead if we believe that theory, after he finds himself alone on that floating isle, and his life passes him in flashbacks, he dies right? then the last amv in the credits is like...misplaced, unnecessary
well who knows, maybe rinoa did find him there, and reviewing him could be the product of pheonix feather, i know i dont believe it myself it's too stupid. maybe it was rinoa using her angel move, where she grows wings and stuff >.>
then again after watching the final amv, the balcony where we see rinoa and squall is pretty small..why dont we see squall when they point the camera at rinoa? and after the battery runs out they show rinoa on that balcony, and as the camera spins around her, i repeat,the balcony is pretty small, we do not see squall standing beside her, he just like, appears out of nowhere after she sees the shooting star.
okay you could say he wasn't there and walked up to her but then again, if that was the case, we would have seen him on the recorded footage which irvine was filming...
maybe it's rinoa who's halucinating?

[NeoArashi]

About your first Point (Edea healing Squall) I can't beleive you are that ignorant. She healed him (because not a lot of things would survive long with a foot large/5 foot long ice spear that came trhough your chest) to have Seifer torture him in order to make Squall tell the true meaning of SeeD. Beinng contolled by Ultimecia, Edea had Ultimecia's mind, thus didn't remember anything about the Meaning of SeeD (as opposed to her true self, since she was among the people who funded Garden)

[Merlin]

I just read through that theory and I have to say, I find it to be a load of hogwash. First of all, the wound he had would not kill him. They even show a screen shot of where the wound is. The icicle hit him right below the shoulder, which is one of the places a person would shoot you if he or she was not trying to kill you. If she was honestly trying to kill him, the shot would have been towards the center of the chest, the liver, or the head.

Secondly, the whole basis of the theory is that his future is flashing before his eyes. There is actually scientific evidence that your life can flash before your eyes when you are dying, or have a near-death experience... but I have never heard nor seen any evidence of the future flashing before your eyes.

If you take both of these into account, you can clearly see this house of cards has no foundation. Let's also take into account the ending theme song. Did the theorist even listen to it? I can tell from the description that he or she found it repulsive and I would conclude more than likely put little or no effort into paying attention to the lyrics. Now, technically I believe the song was from Laguna's love interest, rather than being "Rinoa" as the singer, but don't you find it interesting that the song keeps repeating that the target isn't dreaming? We can all play at the "let's make assumptions" game.

I'd also like to point out that their interpretation of the ending can easily be disproved as well. The Final Fantasy series is known for throwing the characters into a sort of magical pseudo-universe at the end to entrap them as one final "f#ck you" from the end-game boss. The ending isn't that weird if you take this into account. Each character is trapped all alone in their own little version of hell. Finally Rinoa manages to break through the spell and re-unite with Squall. She at first believes he is dead, but he awakes from his daze. The final scene, where the camera cuts to Rinoa on the balcony is also easily explained. She is obviously talking to someone, and if you look at how Selphie is acting, she's doing the whole "ooh look at the two lovebirds!" motion. I mean really, is Rinoa doing hand signals to the wall? I don't think so. Obviously Squall wasn't in any of the video... he was on the balcony the whole time. The camera never had a crap angle and couldn't "view" Squall behind the wall.

I think the problem here, with many of these theories is that people are thinking way too hard on something that is simple. The authors of the various Final Fantasy games are not that creative as to come up with a hidden plot that encompasses the majority of the game. I'm sorry to say it but they aren't. This isn't Xenogears or even Xenosaga, which had so many hidden nuances to it it was crazy. I love Final Fantasy and all, but the story-lines are simply sub-par in comparison to other RPGs I've played. Each one is chock full of cliches and re-used plot elements. You don't have to scratch beneath the surface to figure out any of them. If there's a plot hole it's because they didn't think through their own plot enough to fix it. They probably didn't even realize it was there. Or even worse, they just use the broad spectrum trump card of "it's fantasy, therefore its all good".

[KainsBro]

I think its a possibility, in any case, it makes me want to play FFVIII again, I haven't played that game in 8 years.

I guess its about time, was wondering what FF to play again, was leaning toward FFIX, now 8 looks promising. Still indecisive, though.

[Xithor]

It definitely was an interesting read and of course if you look for evidence of something you are going to find it simply because you are looking for it. The beginning of the ending to FFVIII was always a little confusing to me but I wouldn't say that Squall has been dead the entire time, that'd be a bit much I think. That picture of Squall with no face though is probably gonna haunt my dreams though, that definitely looks like something straight out of a horror flick haha

[Blackbird VIII]

I feel like I am back in my English class discussing different interpretations of Alfred Bester's The Stars My Destination. Anyways, the theory was way too long for me to remember everything that I read, but I find it logical. In fact, playing through the game it sometimes felt a bit dreamlike. However, I didn't completely receive it that way.

There was a comment at the end of the article that best describes what I think.

Quote: I think Squaresoft made this game end like this just to make us think about it, to remember it...to NEVER let us FORGET IT! They made an open ending so that everyone can make his own ending. For me Squall is too cool to die, I still think that he somehow survived everything and had a nice and peaceful (?) life...

[Angel of Iniquity]

Honestly, that is stupid...>.>
Ehh, if you listen to the talk in disc one between seifer and squall, obviously squall had some things that Edea needed. I mean like secrets.
Most of that site was literally like a schizo's take on the storyline LOL!
I don't think the developers wanted us to think like this on the story cause like the rinoa=ultimecia theroy, they disregarded that

Damn, I have horribal english right now lol

[Keigo12]

I think it is a great theory. I think it is highly unlikely that that was square's intentions. However, the next time I play through the game I am definitely going to play as though that were actually the case.

[the_savior21]

*Another warning....this entire thread is going to be filled with spoilers. So if you haven't finished FFVIII entirely, you might want to avoid further reading of this topic. But if you haven't finished FFVIII then uh....yeah.*

With that being said, here's the theory....Squall's Dead - a theory of what really happens in Final Fantasy VIII

After having read this theory over and over again, I feel that the authors make some really strong points. They do however, also make some points that are not so strong and feel rather dismissive as they might provide contrary evidence towards their argument.

The Strong Points of the Theory:

1. Squall's wound and subsequent revival

- This is one of the stronger pieces of evidence that the authors provide and wasn't something I questioned until now. Why exactly would Edea heal Squall? What purpose would he have to be alive? Would she really do it just to placate Seifer and allow him to toy with Squall? He isn't some font of knowledge and holds nothing of value as far as intel goes. But I never questioned that for a moment when I played through. The authors claim that Squall is a threat to Edea but at this point in the game, he isn't even that. You could argue many things about this action: Edea broke through Ultimecia's control to help Squall, Seifer pushed to keep him alive etc....but really when you think of it....why would she do any of that?

2. Squall and Rinoa: Too Perfect?

- I don't feel like I need to elaborate on this anymore than the authors do. Calling the relationship between the two a perfect fantasy seems to be right on the point. Especially when you think about how Rinoa speaks about Seifer and her feelings for him.

3. The Ending

- Once again, the authors do a far better job speaking about this than I ever could.

However....The Weak Points:

1. Moombas and NORG

- Simply dismissing Moombas because they look like lions and appear out of nowhere is a little thin for evidence. But in their defense, the authors do claim that these Moombas appear after the moment where Squall would have "died." But as for NORG, the authors falter as they say "there are no hints presented in the story to suggest this sort of twist was coming."

Well uh, duh, that's what a plot twist is.

NORG isn't exactly a plot twist for the ages but just because it wasn't explained doesn't mean it that it should be considered unbelievable. Think about it. Would you want 99% of the evidence before the plot twist is revealed? No. Because then it wouldn't be a twist at all, it would be an expected and known event. They do make a good point with the fact that NORG isn't discussed once again during the story; but isn't that because Cid doesn't want a severe loss in morale among the SeeD and students? Plus, NORG really does not have any purpose past this twist.

2. Fantasy Elements

-Well, the series is called Final Fantasy for a reason. Airships, monsters, none of these are new elements to the series. I think because the world in which VIII takes place in is more futuristic than other installments and does not provide the same diversity in races, the authors tend to group that into unbelievable events.

So, what do you all think? I do agree with the authors that the creators of the game didn't intend for it to be interpreted this way, but if they did, think they would ever admit it? It would have to be one of the greatest secrets pulled off in series, if not video game history.

i think that edea had to keep squall alive because she wanted to know what SeeD was really. even though she was the one that created SeeD before being possessed ultimecia does not know if this SeeD group will be a hassle to her plans to crush existance to the point were only she would survive

i dont quite understand exactly what you are saying about the moomba and NORG though

[Shiro]

This has to be the biggest load of rubbish I have ever read. This guy clearly had WAY too much time on his hands. I could buy the R=U theory somewhat, but this is just so implausible it made me laugh. I think I'm going to go construct a theory about how Aerith and Jenova are the same person.

[Selcopa]

Its creative, elaborate, but remember in order for it to be plausible it has to be what the developers intended, to deceive people that the story goes one way but in reality they wanted to have the real story be entirely different.

Occam's razor folks

[Locke4God]

You could make this same arguement for any story where the hero dies.

I'll go with Gladiator - He was executed in the film just like he was ordered to be, but in the seconds before he died, he invisioned escaping, and then embarking on a quest so perfect that he became an unbeatable fighter, capable of killing hords of men and beasts with nary a scratch and then defeats the emperor of the land in single combat just before his own death, at which point in reality, the blade cut through his neck.

A major piece of evidence against this is that SQUALL IS RUNNING AROUND PARTYING WITH HIS FRIENDS IN THE FINAL FMV! If he died in reality when he died fighting Ultimacia within his own mind, then why is he still running around in the FMV?

[BDub2277]

I do like a lot of points made in his article, and most seem to have a lot of thought gone into it. One of his major points I also see as being a hole at the same time. In the section where he talks about the Squall-Rinoa love setup being perfect to making Squall happy is where I get caught up. I'll try to explain

In disc one, is there really any parts where we see Squall head over heels for Rinoa? I can't remember one. Minus the ballroom scene (which I dont weigh that heavily since it is only a dance) they both seem rather distant from each other only with minor flirting. The author said himself that Rinoa isn't fond of Squall's cold calculating manner. The evidence he fails to provide to make the Squall-Rinoa love perfection a dream/life flashing before Squall's death is that nowhere in disc one do I see Squall being hardcore in love with her yet. I feel like those feelings don't develop till after disc one.

So basically my criticism is that the "dream" can't be in part based on that Squall wants to be with Rinoa, because in disc one, at the most he is attracted to her, but by no mean in love with her yet.

[Locke4God]

BDub - you bring up an interesting idea, and that is that we're trying to justify whether disks 2-4 are a dream, by saying that the events of the dream had to be set in motion prior to the dream.

In other words, in a normal FF game, everybody is alive the whole time and the story gets more and more bizarrely complicated. But in FF8, he's clearly dying and dreaming, because the story gets more and more bizarrely complicated? Is that really what we're saying? That the events of the dream can only be a dream if they are linked in precise ways to events before the dream? Just as they would be if it wasn't a dream? There is something both contradictory and self fulfilling in trying to make this case.

[CrazedMonkey]

It's a compelling theory I admit, but ultimania proved it wrong. After Edea pierced Squall, she healed him in order to pump him for information. At the end of the game, when Squall was alone on that floating rock, he was in the void. After Ultimecia's time compression, Squall was thrown into the void, along with a small chunk of land from Ultimecia's time. Because his willpower was so strong, he was able to hold that land together and survive for time inside the void. However, it's impossible for any human that isn't a sorceress to exist
indefinitly inside the void. Squall didn't actually die until the void drained his lifeforce from him. That was why his memories kept flashing over and over and why Rinoa's face was blurry. The void was draining his magic, his life, his memories, etc. Rinoa's connection to Squall as well as her sorceress power allowed her to follow him into the void and ressurect him. After which she pulled him back into their own world.

[GypsyElder]

I'm posting in here to put this theory to rest. It's an awesome theory and honestly I like the idea better than the ridiculously unorganized story that it is. If it was the case, it would be the coolest game plot twist in the history of games. Even then I think square would want it to be a little more obvious. There would be a little more that pointed to Squalls death imo...but ANYWAY-->>>>

>>>>

The reason why the Squall is dead theory doesn't work is because the original story would be a complete flop if the theory was true.

Consider the story of the game assuming the theory is true. Some noobs go off to kill the sorceress and get obliterated. The End.

Unless Square wanted VIII to be focused on Squall getting some closure about his life before his tragic death, I don't see how the"dream" or life flashing before his eyes the rest of the game is relevant. They all f*cking die and the bad guy (woman?) rules the world.

*party*

Note: I still think it would be an awesome ending if everyone died, but everyone knows that never happens...which is why it would still be cool.

[Squall]

The "Squall Is Dead" Theory is a case of somebody thinking and putting too much into certain events of the game IMO.

[Rowan]

Consider the story of the game assuming the theory is true. Some noobs go off to kill the sorceress and get obliterated. The End.

Unless Square wanted VIII to be focused on Squall getting some closure about his life before his tragic death, I don't see how the"dream" or life flashing before his eyes the rest of the game is relevant. They all f*cking die and the bad guy (woman?) rules the world.

I tend to think the story of FF8 is focused solely on Squall. Therfor I dont buy in to what 'would have happened' if squall was actually killed, because the events that would have followed in reality are not important and could never be explained. The reason why I dont find it so farfetched is that in comparison to the actual story (assuming he doesnt die) is just as screwy (still awesome) as the squalls death theory.

It makes sense that he would be kept alive for information (after his semi mortal wound)through torture; which they made that very obvious. Ultemcia was controlling Edea and figured squall would be the first to be tortured about seed as opposed to others who were in the cells. Noone said the others wouldnt be tortured later for information, so that puts an end to the whole "why not torture quistis shes been seed for three years omfg" argument. Perhaps Siefer would have taken joy in torturing Squall for information about seed? afterall, it was Squall who made it in, not Siefer.

Although, theres something very interesting and unexplained about the montage of clips that were used in the ending. The images they chose to distort and things they changed. Im actually really surprised noone has mentioned Rinoas space helmet breaking. This along with a few other distorted images were specifically chosen to symbolise something that we might be missing. Perhaps Squall really did die. Saying "the plot got really wacky after the first disc" isnt sufficient enough evidence to sugguest it was all a dream, but usually in many stories, secrets and hidden meanings are usually revealed in endings. I think the montage needs to be looked at furthar because I believe thats where the answer is.

Rinoas broken space helmet, squalls empty face (which is secretly only shown for less than a quarter second) and the locations and fmvs chosen to be shown.

Although interpretations are easy to come up with. For example. Squalls empty black hole of a face signifies his feelings of emptiness of perhaps his connection with ultimecia (if you dont realise, she has an empty face with a light protruding from it in her final form, much like squalls but without the light) and this could signify his memory fading. People remembered him in the past tense and it kept him alive up until that point. Until he was forgetten. Then he just became lost in time.