Where was Sephiroths sword idea come from?

[Angel of Iniquity]

I know the whole Masamune and Muramasa legend thingy, but, by length, wouldn't or shouldn't the sword be considered a Odachi?
You know, the 6-7ft sword?
It, I guess, was banned in the fuedal era cause of it's power.

[T.G. Oskar]

I know the whole Masamune and Muramasa legend thingy, but, by length, wouldn't or shouldn't the sword be considered a Odachi?
You know, the 6-7ft sword?
It, I guess, was banned in the fuedal era cause of it's power.

Power? Now THAT's a good one!

...Really, a weapon of that size would have been ceremonial at best, a test of skill to any blacksmith whom dared to take the art of swordsmithing to the maximum expression.

To boot: German zweihanders, arguably the largest weapons that could be wielded in battle, had about 5 ft. from blade to pommel. These were straight-edged weapons, usually with a flamberge edge (a wavy edge which was supposedly good when used to parry because of the curves causing vibrations; evidently, this is false and it's mostly decoration), and with leather or another strong material holding the ricasso (the part of the blade that's closest to the hilt guard and that generally had no edge, generally longer so that a knight could wield the sword in order to thrust). German zweihanders had two main techniques; either cutting overhead or through a swath (less probable because of the sword balance) or thrusting, as if it were a lance (the typical Landsknecht tactic, generally coupled with spears for this move).

What does this have to do with the weapon? Certainly, the zweihander, which is a German term for "two-hander", which was wielded by large and strong men, is the closest thing in size to the Masamune; any longer, and it was mostly decoration. This is VERY important; a blade that extends more than 5 feet is already hard to swing, let alone hold in the stance that Sephiroth uses it. Over 6 feet, and then you have balance issues; you couldn't hold the sword without the blade itself bending downwards. To create a katana of that size, you'd need at least 70-74 inches of a steel sheet, which should be folded thousands of times; now, consider that the weapon has to be folded all those times almost integrally, or else you would have a blade with severe deficiencies regarding hardness in some parts. If the sword was so big, not only it has to be extremely heavy, but also strong enough to allow the blade to remain erect while gravity does its work. The curvature of the blade is not enough to handle that; while it provides a decent backbone, it's still not enough to handle the balance, so eventually the weight of the blade itself would cause it to break. Now, consider how Sephy uses that weapon; he uses it as a regular swordsman could, when a weapon of that size behaves more like a naginata, which was used to thrust (rarely) and do two-hand swaths at a range.

Just so you know: the ō-dachi (which I reckon must be the nodachi) was mostly used to cleave horses, because something of that size and sharp enough to cut through bone would be capable of cleaving a horse in two. It was highly unpractical for anything aside that, because the sheer size precludes proper kenjutsu technique. For a katana to be appropriate for the wielder, the sword had to be held with the grip close to the tsuba (guard); if the sword barely touched the ground, then it was the right size. Consider that the katana was mostly used with a two-hand grip, only occasionally held in one hand (if the blade was shorter or the weapon was lighter, or if the warrior was in a horse), much like hand-and-a-half swords (which were weighted between the appropriate weight for one hand and the appropriate weight for two). To use a nodachi, you really need to change your entire technique, preparing for the swing for maximum output; if anything, assume how a batter prepares to hit the ball, except the ball is the size of a wrecking ball (and goes roughly at the same speed). And it was aimed at the feet, so that the horse fell, the warrior dismounted from the horse, and then the warrior would draw a smaller weapon to engage in combat.

All of this is mostly info dump, but it serves a few purposes: the sword simply is too long to be used by a normal man (notice that; it's too long to be used by a normal man), and the blade too long to resist (meaning that either the sword is pretty much magical to compensate for the sheer weight, or the swordsman has excellent coordination with the blade's balance and the blade itself is resistant enough to remain erect despite the large area, which shifts the center of mass ridiculously farther than the swordsman may be capable of handling). An ō-dachi would have to be smaller than Sephy's blade in order to work, or Sephy's usual techniques would have to thrusting techniques, with at least one foot of the blade having a false edge (shaped as if it has an edge but not sharpened), with him holding the weapon within that false edge just to counter the balance. So it's not really that the ō-dachi was powerful; the ō-dachi was quite impractical and usually a one-use weapon, less effective than the yumi (longbow, the true tradition of the samurai), naginata or katana in actual combat.

Also: it's mostly a combination of irony and misaimed tradition. Generally, the Masamune is considered the most powerful weapon, but the tradition states that the weapons forged by Masamune were not very effective in terms of killing power, having a more metaphorical feel (instead of cutting the leaf, thus showing how effective the edge was, the leaf circles the blade, showing the weapon's willingness to forgive, hence the mastery of the swordsmith in creating a weapon that does not kill). The irony lies in that; it is meant to be a powerful weapon, when in reality it's mostly a metaphor about perfection and peace. The misaimed tradition comes from the game itself perpetuating the irony.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Holy hell haha
Well, you know a damn lot or are a good researcher (<-- English fail)

I have done research and the page said the Odachi wasn't the same as the Nodachi.
It also stated that because it was impractical, it reduced it's size to 5ft.
It said that the samurai either held it while walking out drawn, on their back, or hand another person hold it, all which were impractical.
Random Question. Are you Japanese?
Anyways. By initial looks, I think the blade design looks allot likes Sephies.

What is the masamune in FF7 anyways? I mean. I really don't know.
Is it like Jenova Matter or something?

[Kyreaan]

You guys should watch Deadliest Warrior.

Anyway, there are sword experts out there whom you could ask about sword making techniques. The Chinese started to rehash their tradition, the Japanese still continue their tradition, Toledo in Spain still comes out with remakes of ancient and middle age weapons and swords, and etc.

The Masamune in FFVII was the name of Sephiroth's sword. It was a weapon that has been featured in many of the FF series. Amazon has a 'remake' on sell right now for around $101 and is featured at 68 inches.

During Cloud's flashback in FFVII, you have Sephiroth in your party with all mastered materia:



Linked Materia
-Ice All
-Lightning All
-Earth All
Single Materia
-Fire
-Revive
-Restore

[T.G. Oskar]

Holy hell haha
Well, you know a damn lot or are a good researcher (<-- English fail)

I have done research and the page said the Odachi wasn't the same as the Nodachi.
It also stated that because it was impractical, it reduced it's size to 5ft.
It said that the samurai either held it while walking out drawn, on their back, or hand another person hold it, all which were impractical.
Random Question. Are you Japanese?
Anyways. By initial looks, I think the blade design looks allot likes Sephies.

No, I'm not from Japan, and knowing a lot about swords doesn't imply I'm from Asia or Europe...just a sword connoisseur.

The thing is that Sephy's sword is based mostly on a katana, from which virtually all other sword variants come from. When the method of forging katana was perfected (laminated steel folded into a blade, much like an axe to be precise), most other weapons followed suit. Because of that, you can see most Japanese swords work that way; it was also, as Kyr mentions, to distance themselves from Chinese jian and dao, which were usually slimmer and lighter. In fact, the strong backbone of katana could have served to slice through the thinner blades of jian and dao because of its thickness and forging method (much like an axe could break a sword, but risked losing its edge unless the axe was made to punch through plate mail).

What is the masamune in FF7 anyways? I mean. I really don't know.
Is it like Jenova Matter or something?

Nothing is really stated, but it probably is an ultimate weapon much like the Ultima Weapon is, with the capability to manifest to its wielder's hand (which means it must have some sort of intrinsic magical power, much like the other ultimate weapons; that could mean it's the ultimate katana much like the Ultima Weapon is the ultimate broad-blade zweihander or fullblade)

You guys should watch Deadliest Warrior.

I've seen one or two programs (through the Net, that is; no cable). Still, Deadliest Warrior is like Wikipedia: not all the information may be true. Remember that they are basing themselves on what the respective experts of each weapon set might speak about the weapon, as well as whatever they might dig out related to combat techniques to make the simulation. In fact, recall that what determines the victor is not the combat technique, but the relative "power" of its weapons, which can be deceptive because a powerful weapon usually does not ensure victory; technique and adaptation do, however.

Anyway, there are sword experts out there whom you could ask about sword making techniques. The Chinese started to rehash their tradition, the Japanese still continue their tradition, Toledo in Spain still comes out with remakes of ancient and middle age weapons and swords, and etc.

And Germany still has Solingen as a region that produces steel for ceremonial swords. Yes, swords are still made, but one has to be very careful with the remake.

For example: 440 Stainless steel is a commonly used metal for replicas, but it's not exactly the strongest. Each swordmaster has it's own technique, which may relate to the design (usually following one of Oakeshott's identified designs in his Treatise of Medieval Weapons or a regional variant), the leading tradition of the country (consider Germany, which is famed for the swords made, and the steel it still produces, to a weapon forged in Italy which pretty much pioneered the rapier and cut & thrust weapons in the Late Middle Ages) and the tradition formed by the swordmaster's teacher. Japan's swordmaking techniques are quite standardized, but unique from the rest of the world; however, look how much it resembles an axe in construction to figure out why a katana has such cutting power (except the edge is always in danger of becoming dull because an axe is designed to have little edge and rely on resisting wedges, the technique used mostly similar to a mace).

Again, mostly info dump, but you may be led into thinking a replica can be used as a proper weapon, when it may not resist actual stress and break whenever you need it.

The Masamune in FFVII was the name of Sephiroth's sword. It was a weapon that has been featured in many of the FF series. Amazon has a 'remake' on sell right now for around $101 and is featured at 68 inches.

That's roughly 5 feet and 8 inches, just slightly longer than most zweihanders and probably closer in size to the nodachi. If going with what it's said on the Final Fantasy wiki, the Masamune in FFVII should be longer than 6 feet and probably reaching 8 (the information may be debatable). The remake has probably considered some of the real-world physics behind it, but judging by its price...it's probably 440 and has a shoddy tang, so it might break easily after a few such showings (even if the visual quality might be superb). What's odd is that the Ultimania or later games in the Compilation don't specify the traits of the weapon, while the traits of all other ultimate weapons are at least mentioned.

[Angel of Iniquity]

No, I'm not from Japan, and knowing a lot about swords doesn't imply I'm from Asia or Europe...just a sword connoisseur.

The thing is that Sephy's sword is based mostly on a katana, from which virtually all other sword variants come from. When the method of forging katana was perfected (laminated steel folded into a blade, much like an axe to be precise), most other weapons followed suit. Because of that, you can see most Japanese swords work that way; it was also, as Kyr mentions, to distance themselves from Chinese jian and dao, which were usually slimmer and lighter. In fact, the strong backbone of katana could have served to slice through the thinner blades of jian and dao because of its thickness and forging method (much like an axe could break a sword, but risked losing its edge unless the axe was made to punch through plate mail).

Nah, mean no disrespect in that Asian question. Just a thought haha.
I thought the Katana was made from two types of metals? Like one softer one inside and a harder on on the outside? Like, folded stronger steel on the outside of the softer steel? I watched a document on it.


I wonder why they didn't come up with an idea why as he can manisfestate(english fail again), unless they pull the strongest FF7 universe card lol. In that case he could summon the masamune through clouds vagus nerve and watch him flop as his heart stops and stomach and all other gastric systems fail, and the contents of his entire gastric system leave their respective locations, attic and basement ^-^
That's what I would have done. but I'm... weird lol

[Pete]

I think that the name Masamune just comes to honor the Japanese master swordsmith of the same name. His swords were called Masamunes. I think it was just to say that Sephiroth had one of the greatest swords .

Plus, it has that name, and the continuing trend from most other RPGs, where the strongest traditional Japanese sword/ katana is referred to as the Masamune. You get that, and you just know you're in business.

[loaf]

First of all, Deadliest Warrior is a show full of idiots. They prove nothing.

Also that flashback if proving nothing for this thread.

and in lately appearances of Seph in games...mainly Dissidia, that sword of his is 10+ feet long.

[Kyreaan]

He asked what it was for FFVII. It's the only mention throughout the game and what it had as far as what it is. It's just the FFVII game's take on a weapon type and grade done in previous FF games, and as far as this thread, it's over thinking the issue.

By the way, the Japanese did not set the standard for swords across the world. It has already been proven not able to cut through- at full force- Norse chain mail. The Chinese also had other works in folding steel with both straight and curved edged swords and weapons. The only diffence in the curvature with the blade of the katana or any other varient was that it provided a slicing motion, while the Chinese broadsword with a straight and double edge blade (and folded just as many times) had more of a hacking effect upon impact. It's physical science.

Regardless of the length of the blade, the differences in tang, curvature, weight, science, looks, the writers for Sephiroth and the game series stated that it was Sephiroth and his own given ablilities including Gen. Engineering and everthing he did that gave him the power level he achieved. Even then Sephiroth to date has never fully realized his full power potential. In the fights where he defeated some of the FF characters, it was because he eventually overpowered them. There wasn't anything really special about the blade other than the reference Pete made and Sephiroth's ablility to call forth the blade after his immersion "from the lifestream by willing it to appear."

Even when Cloud went toe to toe in the fight in AC, Sephiroth was said to have ascended beyond to a higher existance and still has not used the full extent of his power.

That's it.

[Merlin]

I do find the information on swords rather interesting and I appreciate learning more about how swords work. Unfortunately, as AC has shown us, the laws of physics as we know them do not apply to the world of FF7. We really can't compare the weapons in the game to anything we have and come up with a rational conclusion. A sword that is 8+ feet long might be completely impracticable and unbalanced here... but we also don't have the ability to triple+ jump into the air to slay magical dragons either.

As for where the idea for having a super-long ass sword came from, I'd like to think he's overcompensating for a lack of manhood. I mean, he's a spawn of Jenova and all. Which explains why Aerith dressed Cloud up as a girl... OK but in all seriousness, I think the creators were exaggerating the sword for emphasis. I don't think they were trying to make a realistic sword at all.