Theory I have about FFVII

[SuperSabin]

Thinking about this game, I noticed something that really doesn't make sense. This is kinda like the squall is dead theory just with FFVII. We all know that 5 years prior to the game, Cloud gets stabbed by Sephiroth and turns up ending up killing off Sephiroth by throwing him off into the depth of the Nibelheim reactor. What doesn't make sense is that cloud still lives.

He should of been dead by the time he was stabbed like aeris was. The rest of the game could be just a dream or a delusion in cloud's mind. Is cloud inhuman? what exactly is he if hes just some puppet who could feel no pain? that just doesn't make sense.

If my theory was really true, Zack should be still alive but in alot of pain from that battle. Also, sephiroth is most likely, actually dead.

I know there may be flaws in this theory, let me know what you guys think about this sort of theory.

[Rhaps]

Cloud lived due to his Main Character status, and he was supposed to be kind of symbolic. Driven by rage of betrayal and whatnot, he was able to lift the Buster Sword. Then Zack's words of encouragement helped give him that "oomph" to help him tank through Sephiroth's stab. Basically Squeenix was trying to say if you get pissed off really badly, and if you have a friend saying "Finish him", you get lift an average sized man by the sword he stabbed you with and fling him into a reactor.
Also, Zack lived through Nibelheim as we all know, it was ShinRa's lackey's will to beat the Turks that ended him. Even as SOLDIER, a couple of headshots will do ya in.
Actually, now I see your point. If they shot Zack into Swiss cheese and he died, why didn't Cloud being impaled work? Graah, blasted Squeenix logic. . .

[SuperSabin]

Exactly, theres just something wrong with the picture I pointed out. I just see the rest of the game as just some illusion or dream after the events at nibelheim. Cloud may have been as well dead right at the reactor.

[T.G. Oskar]

This is kinda like the squall is dead theory just with FFVII.

I think this tells it all off.

The "Squall is dead" theory, that states that Squall died while impaled by Edea, and that the rest of the game is basically a long and winded dream, catches on irregularities on the FFVIII story, mostly stuff that wasn't really understood, and has most strength on the ending which shows a surreal landscape.

The opening part of the hypothesis would be treating Cloud's incident where he impales Sephiroth and is otherwise impaled by him, thus causing a double kill. Seph never recovers from the wound, but neither does Cloud whom dies on the Mako tank; Zack, probably delusional, drags a corpse into Midgar and he gets "absorbed" by the land. The rest could be an extended dream in the Lifestream.

However, you might need some points in the game in which said thing happens, and the worst offender would be Tifa delving into Cloud's dream. Basically, the fact that Tifa managed to enter Cloud's dream and reveal the truth would be pretty significant, since it implies that Tifa found Cloud again, and that Cloud is confronting her with the dream (which would be the reality) while Tifa confronts him with...what?

Still, the "Squall is dead" is mostly a "what if" situation that attempts to describe some of the most surreal and bizarre situations in FFVIII, so any attempt to create a "Cloud is dead" theory should remain as a "what if" situation as well. If the corollary is applied, it would be a magnificent piece of discussion.

[SuperSabin]

Yeah, i see what you're saying, and i'll add this to the theory. What exactly did Tifa confront Cloud with? how does entering someone's dream work?

[squall_cloud_hpf]

i think all this is interesting but i thaught tht clouds life stories were actualy zacks so he wouldnt have died btw dnt blame me if any of this is wrong im only on disk 2 but ive seen my uncle do most of the game

[nix]

He was taken by hojo and injected with Jenova cells which is what likely healed him, go to nibelheim on disc 3 and check out the flash back...

[squall_cloud_hpf]

its my uncles game so i can only go on it wen i visit but il try,

its my uncles game so i can only go on it wen i visit but il try,

il c if i cud boro thn if it ok with u u cud maybe help me with the smal secrets

[Rhaps]

He was taken by hojo and injected with Jenova cells which is what likely healed him, go to nibelheim on disc 3 and check out the flash back...

Injected with Jenova cells and kept in a tube of concentrated Mako, which led to the overdose which put him in a coma. Anyway, Nix's point is right. They both lived due to Jenova cell implants and the Mako chamber. When Zack got blown away, Hojo wasn't there to inject him again or float him in Mako to heal him. Instead he had some dirt, and one Cloud stoned out of his brains. Something tells me his survival chance went down quite a bit. . .
But on Cloud's end, he took no damage. Somehow the Army of ShinRa didn't see him sitting over by the rock, or they were more focused on killing Zack, but point is Cloud wasn't shot, bombed, cut up, or any other vile things ShinRa's best and brightest carried out. So, his chances of living were unaffected by this scenario.

[squall_cloud_hpf]

Injected with Jenova cells and kept in a tube of concentrated Mako, which led to the overdose which put him in a coma. Anyway, Nix's point is right. They both lived due to Jenova cell implants and the Mako chamber. When Zack got blown away, Hojo wasn't there to inject him again or float him in Mako to heal him. Instead he had some dirt, and one Cloud stoned out of his brains.

lol okies ive got the movie 2

is the movie rite wen cloud uses his special on sephy

is the movie rite wen cloud uses his special on sephy

cos he poofs into a 1 wing angel nd spins nd poofs gone

[nix]

Stop multi posting ya dribbler, check forum rules brah.

[ViviMasterMage]

Oh, this thread is bound to pick up the "Cloud can't use Phoenix Downs on Aeris" joke, isn't it? I can just see it coming.

I suppose Cloud had Auto-Life on, huh? Maybe Final Attack and Phoenix? It doesn't matter because it's a Fantasy game. Things don't have to make sense at all. What the hell are moles and bats doing mating with each other and why are chickens on steroids? It's always going to happen in games so there's no point in explaining events like that.

[squall_cloud_hpf]

i dnt c posting multiple posts is against the rules anywere plz snd me the link so i can c it

[T.G. Oskar]

Oh, this thread is bound to pick up the "Cloud can't use Phoenix Downs on Aeris" joke, isn't it? I can just see it coming.

I suppose Cloud had Auto-Life on, huh? Maybe Final Attack and Phoenix? It doesn't matter because it's a Fantasy game. Things don't have to make sense at all. What the hell are moles and bats doing mating with each other and why are chickens on steroids? It's always going to happen in games so there's no point in explaining events like that.

The "Squall is dead" theory relies upon a "what if" situation, that serves to explain some of the weird happenings in the game without claiming that to be the truth. At most, it's a conspiracy theory, and like most, if not all conspiracy theories, may be true or not; however, they are points of discussion within the story, discussions that might actually bring activity.

However, it's just that. For every Bellisario's Maxim or MST3K Mantra summoned, there's an equal chance that Moff's Law will be invoked. Or the corollary that will apply here: if we're discussing a "Cloud is dead" hypothesis, then stick to the topic or bring proof that said event is impossible aside from summoning canon, such as a point that could serve as a proof against the hypothesis (namely, as I did when I introduced Tifa's immersion into Cloud's subconscious, something that isn't clearly explained in game aside from Tifa actually dying and pulling off a double resurrection on Cloud and herself). Case in point: it doesn't really matter if you don't want to explain it; it's for fun and we are just seeing if we can provide support to that claim while realizing it's not the canonical answer... Geez, where the fun has gone these days...

Nominally, that means that Cloud either managed to survive and he really is alive and everything that happens afterwards is actually a part of the story, or Cloud is dead and everything that happens afterwards (including Advent Children) is merely an extended dream. It would be difficult to consider where Dirge of Cerberus could end up, since the protagonist is Vincent and you end up dealing with Shinra's past, with one or two possible mentions to the original game. However, it could be considered if we consider FFVII as a stand-alone game, ignoring the post-Nibelheim incident aspects as real.

What's worse: claiming Cloud had Auto-Life or Final Attack + Phoenix is even more ridiculous. I mean, why wouldn't he have those Materia with him, and instead have something like, say, Fire and Thunder non-leveled Materia with him?

[nix]

i dnt c posting multiple posts is against the rules anywere plz snd me the link so i can c it

Multi-posting
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EXCEPTIONS: If there is a stickied help topic and you are awaiting a response, double posting to bump the thread is permitted; however, wait at least two days before doing so. If there is a topic containing some type of news, and there is an update to the news, a double post is permitted.

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Source: The Final Fantasy Forums - Announcements in Forum : Final Fantasy VII

[squall_cloud_hpf]

Multi-posting
Posting two or more times in succession is generally not allowed. There is an edit button on each of your posts. Use it wisely.

EXCEPTIONS: If there is a stickied help topic and you are awaiting a response, double posting to bump the thread is permitted; however, wait at least two days before doing so. If there is a topic containing some type of news, and there is an update to the news, a double post is permitted.

All other instances are not allowed.

MULTI-POSTING WARNINGS: Pre-warnings for multi-posting are worth 10 points, after all of the posts have been merged into a single post. After a couple instances of this, official warnings will be issued.

Source: The Final Fantasy Forums - Announcements in Forum : Final Fantasy VII

ty 4 showing me tht i wnt do it ne more sry 4 the inconvenience

[Alisbet]

I say that Cloud survived because of the cells and the Mako. Simple as that.

[Unknown Entity]

Wait wait wait wait. What? o.O

From my understanding of the game, after the fight at the Mako Reactor, Zack and Cloud appeared in the basement of the Shinra Mansion, in those test jars. They were both experiments. You can see this via a flashback upon a return visit in the second or third disc I believe if you go to the mansion (I'm also assuming it's explained further in CC).

They then escape (I'm guessing quite a while later), head to Midgar where Zack is killed, and Cloud takes his memories and bumps into Avalanche.

The only thing I don't understand is that the real form of Sephiroth is crystallised in the crater, and I believe the real form is also the one which Cloud fought in the reactor... how the **** did Sephiroth travel from the reactor to the crater, with you know, him being in a crystal state? Unless it had something to do with Jenova. *shrug*

[loaf]

The only thing I don't understand is that the real form of Sephiroth is crystallised in the crater, and I believe the real form is also the one which Cloud fought in the reactor... how the **** did Sephiroth travel from the reactor to the crater, with you know, him being in a crystal state? Unless it had something to do with Jenova. *shrug*

Well from my understanding he ended up in the crater after falling down in the reactor. Jenova Cells will change someone into Sephiroth just like Kadaj did.

[nix]

Yeah your actually following Jenova around for the majority of the game, first time ya see Seph out of flashback is the FMV in which Cloud hands him the black Materia.

[Heartless Angel]

Actaully, since i first heard the Squall is dead theory and replayed 8 with it in mind, I considered the fact that perhaps that had become a common theme with the series. So far I've found a part where it makes sense in 7, 8 (obviously), and 10.

I believe Cloud did in fact die that day 5 years ago, and that the entire game takes place in his final thoughts.

Squall died when he was hit with the ice shard on disc 1, everyone familiar with the theory knows this.

I also believe Tidus died when Sin attacked Zanrkand, and that 'Spira' was his last thoughts taking shape. This one in particular really made sense to me, because the entirety of Spira was centered around death.

Still searching for times when other main characters could have died in other games. I really do love this theory.

[loaf]

Heartless, Tidus is a dream, Spira was real, Tidus was just a dream....they explained all of that. That wasn't a real Zanarkind.

Also the FFVIII theory has a lot of background but remember, the ice shard that hit squall hit him on his right side, so no vital parts were hit. Also it's a video game, they have all this cure and revive stuff.

Then again with what the theory on VII is.

But you all forgot one thing. The Ultimania, and they explain the games, everything....they didn't tell you that the games are dreams, because...they weren't. It's cool to think like that but it's not true.

[Heartless Angel]

The point of these theories is to think of things in a new way, not to cling strictly to what is stated. You completely missed the point.

[loaf]

Oh I didn't miss the point at all.

[smurphy]

Firstly, I was under the impression that Sephiroth impaled Cloud in the shoulder after watching AC as he did the same in AC pretty delibarately. He was then thrown into the lifestream, which, I believe, crystalised around him to prevent him escaping in tandem with the planet, moving him to a place where he would be no threat in the Northern Crater. I believe this because weapon was in close enough proximity to be able to see its eye, so thats why I believe it was keeping an eye on him. Then of course, you have a contradictory set of events on "the Last Order" and "Crisis Core" which may null my arguments.

I also resent these "........ is dead" theories. The story effectively becomes nulled, which is a pity considering how great the stories are.

[nix]

Actaully, since i first heard the Squall is dead theory and replayed 8 with it in mind, I considered the fact that perhaps that had become a common theme with the series. So far I've found a part where it makes sense in 7, 8 (obviously), and 10.

I believe Cloud did in fact die that day 5 years ago, and that the entire game takes place in his final thoughts.

Squall died when he was hit with the ice shard on disc 1, everyone familiar with the theory knows this.

I also believe Tidus died when Sin attacked Zanrkand, and that 'Spira' was his last thoughts taking shape. This one in particular really made sense to me, because the entirety of Spira was centered around death.

Still searching for times when other main characters could have died in other games. I really do love this theory.

LOL

Are you serious? I cant argue with the Squall theory as ive only played that piece of shit once when it was first released and have trouble recollecting.

Your interpretation on FFVII is just crazy and i have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

Same for FFX, they explain all these events in game, you cant ignore the story and implement your own crazy assumptions

[Heartless Angel]

There's a reason tehy call these thoeries. It's because they're not proven. If you can't think outside of what's plainly stated, fine, don't.

[T.G. Oskar]

Oh I didn't miss the point at all.

Yeah...I think you missed the point already. Or at least, didn't considered what was behind the "Squall is dead" theory. If you go and read the site, first and foremost you'll notice the big "it's a 'what if' hypothesis" (which would make the concept of a theory pointless, so I can grant you that). Heartless got pretty close to that: reimagine the story as an incredible story told by a dying man.

Big Fish, anyone?

The point of these theories is to think of things in a new way, not to cling strictly to what is stated. You completely missed the point.

This is part of the point; if the concept is "develop a hypothesis where you can find points in the game where it can be justified that the main character dies and thus the story is a large, large dream", then it's necessary to separate from the canon. It gives a new perspective on an old story. Is that so hard to figure out, or do you have to be so insistent in the incorruptibility of the story? At least by stating the weak points of such hypothesis, you're working on it (it builds discussion), but by saying "Word of God is absolute" you're ruining the fun.

BTW: excuses if I made you lose one day of your life.

Firstly, I was under the impression that Sephiroth impaled Cloud in the shoulder after watching AC as he did the same in AC pretty delibarately. He was then thrown into the lifestream, which, I believe, crystalised around him to prevent him escaping in tandem with the planet, moving him to a place where he would be no threat in the Northern Crater. I believe this because weapon was in close enough proximity to be able to see its eye, so thats why I believe it was keeping an eye on him. Then of course, you have a contradictory set of events on "the Last Order" and "Crisis Core" which may null my arguments.

I also resent these "........ is dead" theories. The story effectively becomes nulled, which is a pity considering how great the stories are.

Uh, why would Sephy puncture Cloud with a relatively non-lethal wound instead of going for the kill?

Also...why exactly do the "Main Character is dead" theory makes the story fail? It's a re-imagining of the story, and in the case of FFVIII (which, as you'll notice, not everyone thinks of as a "great story"), it actually improves the story (again, opinion of people, not necessarily mine). It can work if you tie some apparently loose ends under a common theme. Certainly, the canon is that Cloud lives, but it's drugged all the way to Midgar, where Zack dies, they treat him as if he was dead, but he miraculously survives. Note that the only way a soldier would ignore a wounded guy was if the order was to kill one individual and they found no hint of threat in the subject. The fact that Cloud was injected with Mako and that he has the Mako eyes would make him a potential threat if he were to be alive. Otherwise, Cloud must have been either dead (thus the "Cloud is dead" hypothesis) or catatonic (which would be a reasonable explanation for why he wasn't shot).

LOL

Are you serious? I cant argue with the Squall theory as ive only played that piece of shit once when it was first released and have trouble recollecting.

Your interpretation on FFVII is just crazy and i have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

Same for FFX, they explain all these events in game, you cant ignore the story and implement your own crazy assumptions

For purposes of a "what if", you can. Happens in Marvel and DC every time, and they sell the frickin' stories. The "Squall is dead" "theory" relies on that; it's a massive "what if?" and thus plays with the story under a different common factor.

Points to suggest: when Tifa drowns in the Lifestream along with Cloud and they miraculously survive, but Tifa gets into Cloud's unconsciousness and figures the truth (how can that be done is a bit shaky), the moment in which Sephy was awakened and thus Weapon was awakened as well (you have a big part of the story where Cloud is absent, from the escape at Shinra to finding Cloud in Mideel), and whether Sephy really awakens or not were Cloud to be dead (and thus, how AVALANCHE would react without a common factor). Also, it could be a "Cloud is dead, Zack is alive" hypothesis; that would be a major shock.

[dkmjr96]

if they were inhuman zack would be alive but in advent children it shows his and arieths ghost

[Unknown Entity]

Where I do accept that there would be different theories with particular games in the series, I also dismiss them. They're usually the work of people who obviously didn't pay enough attention to the story. I thought the Squall is dead theory to be very interesting, and for me it cleared up a lot of things, but it's not believable. It's too outrageous to be true, and wasn't obvious enough when playing the game. You can see that it's something someone has spent a lot of time thinking about, and it shouldn't have been like that.

FFVIII had many twists and plot holes, so it can be forgiven if someone presents a theory as such. But for FFVII? I thought that game made itself perfectly clear for the most part.

I mean, seriously. You can look outside of the box all you want, but the story was already presented inside it, in a manner of speaking. If I hand you an apple, and call it an apple, then you take it and think it's a banana, then something is wrong.