Aerith?? Annoying as fuh!/or amazing all around

[Rowan]

Id settle for not hearing 'mary sue' anymore. This tortured metaphor has run its course, dont you think?
Mary Sue appears on the previous page 136 times.


Definition:In fan fiction, a Mary Sue is an idealized character representing the author.

The following is fact:
Aeris is actually a character that represents the Authors mother. She tragically died and in doing so, Sakaguchi wanted to express his pain and loss in this game by using aeris as a representation of his feelings. I dont think anyone has ever created such an artistic/intricate expression of loss in a game that has reached millions of people. If Aeris's death didnt mean anything to you before, surely it would mean something now.
Aeris is certainly not worthy of a mary sue characterization based on this fact alone.

Dont start making false claims about stuff unless you want me to land on you like a sumo wrestler.

[Sheechiibii]

Definition (urban dictionary): "See Mary-Sue. A female fanfiction character who is so perfect as to be annoying. The male equivlalent is the Marty-Stu. Often abbreviated to "Sue". A Mary Sue character is usually written by a beginning author. Often, the Mary Sue is a self-insert with a few "improvements" (ex. better body, more popular, etc). The Mary Sue character is almost always beautiful, smart, etc... In short, she is the "perfect" girl. The Mary Sue usually falls in love with the author's favorite character(s) and winds up upstaging all of the other characters in the book/series/universe. There are several main types of Mary Sue"

2nd Definition (tv tropes): "Mary Sue is a derogatory term primarily used in Fan Fic circles to describe a particular type of character. This much everyone can agree on. What that character type is, exactly, differs wildly from circle to circle, and often from person to person. Since there's no consensus on a precise definition, the best way to describe the phenomenon is by example of the kind of character pretty much everyone could agree to be a Mary Sue. These traits usually reference the character's perceived importance in the story, their physical design and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature. "

3rd Definition (wikipedia): "In fan fiction, a Mary Sue is an idealized character, often but not necessarily an author insert."

You got yours (I think) from google, but as you can see and while I admit that often Mary Sue characters can represent the author, this is not always the case. What is always the case, is that they are too good/perfect. So...I have made no false claims here it's certainly a shame about the authors mother, and I empathise with anyone who has gone through that sort of loss. However, Aerith is a character, she is part of a game and part of a story, and the background of the author doesn't mean she can't be criticized.

[Rowan]

Every character ever is always an author insert.
I also think you'll find it difficult to find a single character in the final fantasy series who wasnt beautiful or intelligent.
These descriptions are absolutley worthless. (dont take offence, afterall, these are not your descriptions)

Im not necessarily targetting you for false claims here.
I refer everyone else to my previous post about the substance/importance of Aeris' character, and if you look furthar back, her utmost importance in the game.

[Pete]

Well, every girl in FF is either beautiful but useless save for a special power, intelligent, spunky (annoying), or a fierce warrior who is either the last of her people or shunned by her people and somehow comes to show them the error of their ways, or the badass (chick designed to be extra hot who can pack a punch in battle).

FFVI:
Beauty: Terra, Celes
Spunky: Relm

FFVII:
Beauty: Aeris
Spunky: Yuffie
Badass: Tifa

FFVIII:
Beauty: Rinoa
Intelligent: Quistis
Spunky: Selphie

FFIX:
Beauty: Garnet
Last of her people: Freya
Spunky: Eiko
Badass: Beatrix

FFX:
Beauty: Yuna
Spunky: Rikku
Badass: Lulu

FFXII:
Badass: Ashe
Spunky: Penelo
Last of her people: Fran (her people shunned her)

FFXIII:
Beauty: Serah
Spunky: Vanille
Badass: Fang, Lightning*

Although, personally, I don't find Lightning attractive, and I don't think that she was particularly made to look sexy, she fits best into the badass role, since she does kick some ass.

I'm sure those tropes can be further or better defined, but those are the most basic to plug everyone into. Someone else can do the earlier games, but I'm doing this from the most recent ones I've played.

[Halie]

Alrighty let's just lay down some shit here.

The entire concept of "Mary Sue" in of itself is bullshit and neither Tifa or Aeris should be classified as such in the first place for many reasons, besides the fact that Final Fantasy VII wasn't written by 12 year old fan boy/girls. Both were written well and fully (to an extent), and with Aeris being presented as someone who seems perfect and possessing all ideal qualities at face-value, doesn't the fact that her character is written this way (leading to so many disliking her so much for this very reason) make her imperfect? And doesn't that, in a way, shatter your Mary Sue bullshit theory? Well yeah, kinda.

A Mary Sue is a character is a character who is too 'perfect' to be realistic - modesty, beauty, kindness, selflessness, every trait they have is a good one, they're almost always martyrs too, and any negatives in their lives are there only to show how good a person they are. All those things you describe there - those are all Mary Sue traits, every single one of them.

Modesty and selflessness aren't concrete "good/perfect" traits; they're only subjectively so. With a lot of characters, selflessness often translates to "naivety and carelessness" on their part. It is neither completely good or bad to be selfless, like it is neither completely good or bad for a character to put oneself first. I don't personally see how Aeris possesses much too much modesty, but even so, if being modest is the good trait of a Mary Sue then does than mean having pride in oneself negates a character from being a Mary Sue? It shouldn't.

See that's part of the problem with Mary Sue. Where do you draw the line?

It's just unfortunate that Aeris, a character who had so much more potential, was killed off in order to further the male protagonist and male villian's character development.


...And then ya'll started bringing Yuna into this and that's when the intensity intensified. Ya'll be throwin' shade.

I mean I can't speak for Rosa or Terra or Garnet or whoever, I lost track of all the names so whatever idk and idc, let's just take a minute to collapse all of you's Yuna shit-talk for a second.

Yuna is not a Mary Sue because she has negative character traits: her naivete is pretty astounding, so is her blind obedience. She totally lacks the ability to think for herself for most of the game.

What? What? What?

Yes, she is not a Mary Sue. Yes, Yuna is very naive for a large portion of the game, though certain plot twists and events within the game ultimately lead to her maturing a lot in this sense. But her naivety is certainly not astounding. She's 17 years old, lived a pretty sheltered life (as sheltered as one can be when they live in a world that is largely being destroyed by a giant whale a lot) and lives under the influence of an intense religious faction run by zealots spewing lies to everyone in the world. Her naivety is a little understandable and justified. For the same reason, her blind obedience is also understandable. It's easy for someone like Tidus, who lived in a world so completely different to the one which Yuna lives in and has lived in her entire life, to come in and defy everything, whereas she literally knows nothing else, why would she defy it?

And totally lacks the ability to think for herself most of the game? Say whuuttt?

Spoiler ahead: Literally one of the events of the game, her wedding with Seymour, was subsequent of Yuna's lack of communication with her guardians. A little too much thinking for herself and not enough for the others. A little too much "I can do this, I don't need to bring them into this". Definitely not due to not being able to think for herself. In fact I literally can't think of any instance where that's true, I think you're just taking her character a little too much at face-value and really not giving her enough credit. The majority of her character consists of too much internalised thinking, actually. Perhaps you're mistaking her quietness and reservedness as not thinking enough for herself, which is definitely untrue, and quite the opposite.

Unlike Rinoa and Yuna, she didn't NEED A MALE to lean on or to help her struggles and concerns, which all Mary Sues are actually, A WEAK DEPENDENT CHARACTER.

Awww heeelllll naw. Yuna certainly did not need Tidus to lean on, help her struggles or her concerns and she is definitely not a weak, dependent character. First, let's start with Tidus. Tidus is really only the "main" protagonist and controllable character of the game in part for story telling reasons, such as the fact that Spira is wildly different from our universe with so many different things that the player has to learn in order to fully understand the game, and it's the same for Tidus. As someone who was thrown from one world so vastly different to another, he was a perfect plot-device to teach us as players to be able to understand the game and for us to learn with him as the plot furthers. Having him be the main protagonist also allowed for major plot twists later on to be revealed in a more impactful way, such as (spoilers) Yuna's imminent death, and Tidus being a dream of the fayth. It's also partly due to some pretty misogynist bullshit on Square's part but unfortunately this ain't the time for that.

So with that said, Yuna didn't need to lean on Tidus or his help in order to beat Sin, she would've managed perfectly fine without him, and was going to. It just made sense, since he was such a different character to her other guardians, that she would lean on him. He allowed her to have fun and to laugh whereas her other guardians couldn't as much because they knew her fate. As I said, this was sensible, but not necessary to her actual character.

Obviously, without Tidus's help Sin would've been reborn again, but that doesn't make her a Mary Sue, or weak. It means it was better that they work together as a team to save the world, both equally helping each other. That certainly doesn't constitute as a weak character, nor a Mary Sue.



So yeah, that's the Yuna essay written.


And regarding Aeris again...

I swear she only did it to impress Cloud though.

Ah yes, let me just go ahead and save the world in order to impress this boy - that's her correct motive, and not at all horribly diminishing and discrediting her character.

...Nah, son. Just nah.

[Sheechiibii]

Alrighty let's just lay down some shit here.

The entire concept of "Mary Sue" in of itself is bullshit and neither Tifa or Aeris should be classified as such in the first place for many reasons, besides the fact that Final Fantasy VII wasn't written by 12 year old fan boy/girls. Both were written well and fully (to an extent), and with Aeris being presented as someone who seems perfect and possessing all ideal qualities at face-value, doesn't the fact that her character is written this way (leading to so many disliking her so much for this very reason) make her imperfect? And doesn't that, in a way, shatter your Mary Sue bullshit theory? Well yeah, kinda.

Modesty and selflessness aren't concrete "good/perfect" traits; they're only subjectively so. With a lot of characters, selflessness often translates to "naivety and carelessness" on their part. It is neither completely good or bad to be selfless, like it is neither completely good or bad for a character to put oneself first. I don't personally see how Aeris possesses much too much modesty, but even so, if being modest is the good trait of a Mary Sue then does than mean having pride in oneself negates a character from being a Mary Sue? It shouldn't.

See that's part of the problem with Mary Sue. Where do you draw the line?

It's just unfortunate that Aeris, a character who had so much more potential, was killed off in order to further the male protagonist and male villian's character development.

So basically, being too perfect means a character is not perfect? How does that make sense at all? The point is she is not a realistic character, people who have no negative character traits do not exist and that is why I dislike her character. It's a writing thing, and believe it or not experienced writers are just as liable to criticism as 13 or 14 year old fanboys/girls. If not more so considering they make money off of their creativity.

Being selfless is a good character trait. You say that being careless or naive are negatives and that is true, but they are not the same as being selfless, a character who is selfless can also have other traits that are negative such as those two. However, Aerith is neither careless or naive, so I really don't see how it matters what other characters are like. Modesty is not the opposite of pride, it's the opposite of arrogance, which is a negative trait to have. You can have pride in your abilities while still being modest.

...And then ya'll started bringing Yuna into this and that's when the intensity intensified. Ya'll be throwin' shade.

I mean I can't speak for Rosa or Terra or Garnet or whoever, I lost track of all the names so whatever idk and idc, let's just take a minute to collapse all of you's Yuna shit-talk for a second.


What? What? What?

Yes, she is not a Mary Sue. Yes, Yuna is very naive for a large portion of the game, though certain plot twists and events within the game ultimately lead to her maturing a lot in this sense. But her naivety is certainly not astounding. She's 17 years old, lived a pretty sheltered life (as sheltered as one can be when they live in a world that is largely being destroyed by a giant whale a lot) and lives under the influence of an intense religious faction run by zealots spewing lies to everyone in the world. Her naivety is a little understandable and justified. For the same reason, her blind obedience is also understandable. It's easy for someone like Tidus, who lived in a world so completely different to the one which Yuna lives in and has lived in her entire life, to come in and defy everything, whereas she literally knows nothing else, why would she defy it?

And totally lacks the ability to think for herself most of the game? Say whuuttt?

Spoiler ahead: Literally one of the events of the game, her wedding with Seymour, was subsequent of Yuna's lack of communication with her guardians. A little too much thinking for herself and not enough for the others. A little too much "I can do this, I don't need to bring them into this". Definitely not due to not being able to think for herself. In fact I literally can't think of any instance where that's true, I think you're just taking her character a little too much at face-value and really not giving her enough credit. The majority of her character consists of too much internalised thinking, actually. Perhaps you're mistaking her quietness and reservedness as not thinking enough for herself, which is definitely untrue, and quite the opposite.

Pointing out negative things in a character is not shit talking them. I love Yuna's character because she does have faults, they make her realistic, they make her human. People are not completely good or bad, they have parts of them that are not perfect, and Yuna certainly does have negative traits. Many times during the story she herself realises that she has never attempted to think for herself or question anything she has been taught. She mentions it first on the Mi'ihen Highroad and again at the Moonflow, and those are cases where she admits herself that she has never thought about these huge things that have a massive impact on her life, she just follows what she's been told to do and never thinks about it for herself. It's one of the main themes of the game. While her naivete/blind obedience is understandable they are still negative character traits. If she were a Mary Sue she would not be naive or blindly follow what she'd been told even though in her situation one would expect it. That's why Mary Sues are unrealistic and that's why Yuna is not one.

[Alpha]

If Mary Sues are weak and dependent, then isn't the term a contradiction?

Also agree with Hal9000 on the selflessness not being an objectively good trait. I'd go further and say that there's almost no character trait that can be considered objectively good, and therefore the idea of a Mary Sue doesn't make sense.

And that concludes Alpha's 1am raving.

[Anastar]

I never saw Aerith as being a Mary Sue character and in fact I was shocked the first time I heard someone call her that. I was like ... what? How'd you get that idea??

If she was idealized, it was because half her heritage was that of an extinct race with mysterious powers - she had powers beyond that of humans - and she was destined to save the world. Her role was extraordinary because of her Cetra powers. Sephiroth kills her because he knows she's capable of fighting Jenova's powers with Holy. The loss of her was monumental to Avalanche, not only on a personal level but also because of her Cetra heritage. It was also a monumental loss to Gaia because the Cetra race became entirely extinct with her loss.

If she was idealized, it was for that reason. On a personal level, I don't think she was actually idealized to the extent people think. After all, she gets discouraged in Cosmo Canyon in front of the campfire when she tells Cloud that she's all alone because she's the only Cetra, and he replies, "But I'm... were here for you, right?" She's an imp when she suggests that Cloud dress up like a girl. She teases Barret when they leave Costa Del Sol and he's dressed in a sailor suit. She gets irritated at Tseng when she meets up with him at the Mythril Mine and he tells her she got away from Shinra for awhile because Sephiroth reappeared. There's other examples, but the point is that she's far from "perfect".

[Coff9]

Cetra heritage!

It's a fun phrase, haha.

But yes, Aerith is probably my favorite character from FF7, but I really need to play it again. I also don't think she was a Mary-Sue, especially because she dies, and that usually, if ever, doesn't happen to those kinds of characters.

If she had been a Sue, then I could see Cloud being the one who was kidnapped and Aerith is the one that tries to save him, haha.

[Anastar]

Cetra heritage!

It's a fun phrase, haha.

Hehe... well I figure ANY heritage is better than my heritage.

But yes, Aerith is probably my favorite character from FF7, but I really need to play it again. I also don't think she was a Mary-Sue, especially because she dies, and that usually, if ever, doesn't happen to those kinds of characters.

Very good point.

You didn't mention this, Coff, but I also don't like the fact that too many fans often say that Cloud ends up with Tifa because Aerith's dead. Once again, that's just ignoring the fact that Aerith is part Cetra as well as the fact that FFVII happens in a magical world of fantasy where the rules of life and death on Earth don't necessarily apply. (I know that's a point that actually belongs in an LTD thread, but I bring it up here simply because being Cetra is an element of Aerith's character that's too often ignored by FFVII fans. In other words, too many fans judge Aerith as though she's all human when in fact she is partly of a superhuman race that's capable of surviving for hundreds of years in the Lifestream without returning to the Planet. IMO, if Aerith is idealized at all, it's because she's Cetra.)

If she had been a Sue, then I could see Cloud being the one who was kidnapped and Aerith is the one that tries to save him, haha.

But Sue's are weak and dependent - so a Sue isn't likely to take such initiative.

But once again the mere fact that Aerith takes the initiative to summon Holy in order to defeat Sephiroth isn't being a Sue.

[Master Garland]

I find her annoying. I used to like her until this current playthrough how disrespectful she is and how she is self contradictory. The first thing she askes Cloud to do when she meets him is "will you be my bodyguard?" but then she gets upset at him for saying the "I don't know... getting help from a girl" response later. So what does she like to fight like a powerful female fighter or does she like to play damsel in distress and be protected by her male bodyguards ughh. Not to mention her making light of Barrets emotional suffering about Corel at the Gold Saucer. She also thinks she's such hot shite that she initiates to 'pay' Cloud for risking his life for her for a 'date.' Sure he does not refuse but the mere fact that she thought she was that impressive to begin with is laughable. All in all she is horrible and I'm fairly happy she dies.. Tifa kinda sucks too. Out of the female character it's all about Yuffie.. her stealing the materia is hardly and offense in comparison to Aerith's and Tifa's attitudes for sure.

Can't beat the male characters though Zack is wonderful 'real' Cloud is awesome, Barret is great, Nanaki is intelligent and kind hearted.. Cid's funny, and Vincent is an introverted loner badass that is also handsome imho. Cait Sith sucks(Reeve) sucks but that's a different story.

The female characters.. sides for Yuffie(who still kinda sucks compared to the guys) are like 20 leagues below the dudes.