People keep obsessing over this whole thing in FF7, when even as a kid I was unconvinced in any relationship they had. A tank protecting a Healer in WoW has more romance than Cloud and Aeris. In the game, it basically tells you that Cloud loves Aeris because he effin' does. there is no hint to them both being attracted to each other, they basically spontaneously hold hands and talk. Even if I could buy their relationship together, I can still not relate to Cloud in any way. He's annoying, basically a piece of cardboard, and once Aeris finally gets screwed in the chest, He grabs her corpse and starts whining to Sephiroth about his feelings instead of going on a godamned rampage throughout the game for killing his friend...Yeah, that's what it should have been. They should have been friends. Tifa was the one constantly standing by Cloud's side, they should have been the love story throughout the whole thing. Wouldn't that make much more sense? She would have made a man out of him.
As for the whole 'killing off Aeris', it totally comes out of nowhere, and completely shocking. but for all the wrong reasons. At the time, we had no idea what was going on and thought she was going insane. We then see her praying there for some reason and gets run through by the most impractical katana I have seen. there's bright pearly altars and floating stair steps, it was more surreal than anything. If you want a good death scene then
Spoilers here, for the inexplicably overlooked rpg masterpiece that is Final Fantasy Tactics.
Spoiler: In Final Fantasy Tactics (the last good final fantasy game) Ramza and Delita are off to save Delita's sister, a commoner that was mistaken for a noble and kidnapped for leverage. Ramza joins because Delita could basically be considered his brother since they were raised together and Teta in turn, his sister. after facing down the Corpse brigade and defeating Wiegraf, they reach the fort where she's being held to see Ramza's brother Zalbag and cavalry arriving. Who then orders to shoot Teta and then captor. Algus (the shooter) then tells Ramza that the nobles didn't care for such commoners and that they killed her to save face. Ramza and Delita then go and ****ing massacre Algus (fun fact: in the battle, Teta's body is still on the map, but won't resurect if you try a life spell or phoenix down). That death had reason, it was a very sadistic and brutal reason, but a reason nonetheless. We see later that Aeris casted the spell, so her death was just to prevent people from knowing what the hell was going on until the next 2 discs.
In conclusion, Aeris' death wasn't an example of how a game can invoke a strong emotional response from the player. It’s an example of how a cutscene can trigger an emotional response, and that’s been happening since the introduction of film (to paraphrase from a blogger, can't remember the name). Anyway, this is all just my opinion, I expect any hatemail shortly.
It wasn't about Aeris dying. It was about how badass Sephiroth is. It definitely gives you a strong emotional response, but it isn't love.
Crying about it was for all the pussies who played the game, and for them I can't speak. Has any game ever made you feel more emotionally attached than a movie?
While you bring up a valid point, When many of us first saw this scene we where 10 to 13 years old.
Back then it did invoke a strone emotional response.
However I recently replayed the game.
Got to that part.
And simply raised an eyebrow at how cheesy it was.
Spoiler: In Fallout 3,James, Filling the chamber with radiation and dying invoked more of an emotional response from me.
Last edited by Calvan; 02-20-2011 at 09:04 PM.
-My Tee Eff Eff Family-
Unknown Entity, My recipe trading, PS3 playing cousin.
----------
And then just like that i'm gone again.
Silent Hill 1 2 and 3, Shadow of the Colossus, No more Heroes 1 and 2, and Final Fantasy Tactics (of course). as for how "badass" Sephiroth is, this oedipal trench coat wearing antagonist always made me laugh more than anything. blame it on the white hair, all black and silver suit, or the most impractical katana ever being wielded in one hand, but every time we were supposed to feel threatened by him, I would always say "here comes cosplay bait".Originally Posted by che
yeah.
I agree, but I don't think they were supposed to be "in love" there isn't anything speial hinted at, like you said. I think the killing of Cloud's friend was just another thing on the list for why he hates Sephiroth.
Well, when you think about it, Cloud wasn't all that emotive in the third act (disc). Even when he wasn't in a nu-metal induced coma (seriously, there is a ridiculous amount of youtube videos with FF7 related footage playing Linkin park or Slipknot). He was literally a cardboard stand in moving from point A to point Crater. He never gave many speeches, he never expressed any hatred to Sephiroth, I'm not sure he even mentioned Aeris. If only the people up at Square didn't take Amano off art design, they made characters that actually acted human, and whoever pens the stories didn't tke a blow to the head then they'd probably get back in the game. But then again, they are making a freaking sequel to final fantasy 13.
*coughs*abdomen*coughs*
Sorry, but it's true. I had the same argument with someone last year.
Exactly this. It's easy for an adult or a recent Final Fantasy VII player to say that it's not emotional. If you'd played the game back when 3D games were getting their foot in the door, you'd probably understand a little better why it's been made a big deal out of. I mean, what did you expect from a game released in 1997? I think MGS solid did a good job at conveying emotion, and in some ways, it's much, MUCH sadder than FFVII. But that was over a year later.
I can say that I can play FFVII to that point now and not feel a thing. But once upon a time, it did.
"I used to be active here like you, then I took an arrow in the knee."
>>>------------->
Suddenly... clutter.:
Warning free for over eight years. Feels good.
Aerith did feel some affection to Cloud in that he displayed personality traits similar to Zack. As such he reminded her of her lost love if even just a little. Cloud obtained Zacks traits and as revealed in CC was told about Aerith by Zack so he applied an emotional draw towards her. In any case her dying was an emotional part of the game no matter what age group one belongs to. Afterall the center point of RPGs is story and character so if a RPG especially a JRPG fails to express emotion or empathy evoking traits than it is a waste of a game. I do not play RPGs for gameplay only I do it for story and the musical score while gameplay takes small precedence in my importance list overall.
I disagree with the statement that games basically should not be taken seriously because 'there just VGs and such they do not deserve respect as their own channel of great story telling or emotion' as for me most of all RPGs I have played evoked more emotion out of me than the movies I have seen and I am almost 23 years old at that. In my book FFIX, FFVII, and FFVI have better character development, story, and emotional draw than really any story I have read or seen.
If you really want to kill a character off in a video game, and make it very emotional, make it a challenge, an extremely tough challenge, to save them, make it a part of the game.
Let's say, a lone warrior sprints towards a castle with his wife held captive inside. He fights his way through hordes of enemies to a large room with his loved one on the upper balcony or another room. Unfortunately, there is an extremely large quantity of foes in his way. If he defeats all the advesaries in a short, but possible time, he will barely save his wife from the boss, if not, dead.
Make the relationship meaningful, make any interactions between the two characters seem as though they're both in actual love. Here's a good example from an underrated gem Known as The Darkness
YouTube - The Darkness - Getting Cosy with Jenny
Seriously, I shed a Man tear from that scene. And I'm not the one who'd cry at most funerals. The cheesy yet beautiful music coming from the movie, the fact that they both look like human beings and not celebrities or anime characters, that they both act like real people or even that it was all in the first person. The immersion in that game really put you in Jackie's shoes, feeling everything that he felt...Sorry, I just really love that game.
*Spoilers here for the extremely underrated first person shooter that is The Darkness*
Spoiler: When Jenny gets killed, you're in the first person, seeing every single moment of Paulie taunting you, the Darkness restraining you from saving her. I'll tell you, I was mashing every single button trying to break through the window and save her. Once Jenny is finally shot by the bastard, I felt every single emotion that was rushing through Jackie right then, ignoring the malevolent whispers of The Darkness. Once Jackie puts the gun in his mouth, I'd be lying if I said that I probably wouldn't do the same in his situation.
So in Conclusion, if a character must die, give it some emotional and dramatic weight to it. Not because you can kill them off.
That is a pretty good scene, however I did not shed a tear and did not feel a lot emotion from it either. Maybe because I have never played the game possibly. I also am a man that can shed tears during emotional scenes as well especially at the ending of FFIX when Vivi dies(it is not said directly but strongly implied) and you read all the goodbye messages for each of the characters in the game.
I don't really want to get into it but it seems more then anything due to your fervent put-downs and overexaggerations you are just hating on FF7 and how people could possibly accept its "love story" simply because so many people do like it.
It wasn't as well developed as many other games yes but it wasn't as one dimensional as you claim. Aeris during Midgar has a playful, innocent and optimistic personality which anyone would be receptive to. Later it is found that she had an inclination towards Cloud because of his similarities towards Zack. The fact that Cloud wasn't really himself spoke badly for any possible future they could of had.
That, and I strongly agree with the revelation that most people were 12 or younger when they first played this game and videogames themselves were just developing into the intense narratives some are today, along with trying to compete graphically in new 3D games. Being the first Playstation and 3D FF its surprising how well FF7 did and it's not unreasonable to think that a part of the game could be disputed to not be as great as it could be.
Again I'm not claiming love story of the century or anything but even compared to other bad love stories like Celes and Locke, Terra and Leo, or Ashe and Rasler it's half decent. I'm not fully dismissing your points either, its much more of a valid argument then some Tifa lovers that are like "OMG BOOBS!!CLOUD MUST LOVE" I just don't think their love stories and by extension their personalities are as stale and bland as you claim (ala tank protecting healer)
(got into it more then I originally planned)
Edit: I didn't cry or anything when Aeris died more surprised as I didn't believe that people died permanently in video games before this time
Last edited by Dan558; 02-22-2011 at 01:27 AM.
Playstaion ID: Setzer_All-in
- "Phoenix Downs are your friends. But remember Cloud they don't always work. I'm looking at yooou Aeris"
-"Immortal maybe... but not invincible!" -Prince (of Persia)
I'm not saying I fully despised the game, while it did start the slope that made the series fall into a well lined with oil, it had SOME redeeming factors to it...can't think of any off the top of my head though... Also, the whole thing about Cloud having Zack's personality left Cloud with none even after he pulled himself together. He seemed very blank and to be honest, boring. I would still be enraged at Sephiroth, even if I knew I wasn't who I thought I was. but he didn't frankly do that much character-wise.
I loled when the title got censored. The game has been out since '97, no reason to think it's a spoiler anymore jesus christ wtf.
Also, the whole death of her was pretty big back then; not to sound grandpa age old but we didnt have walkthroughs/lets plays/youtube back then, so we couldnt be spoiled near as easy. But nothing is ever as big once you go back through it again, its just ourselves being desensitized to the situation.
†SOLDIER† - "Yep still better than you"CPC8: It's hard out here for a pimp.™
hahas, updated July 28th (oldie but goodie!):
(Updated April 13th 2013)Currently Playing: League of Legends, FTL, Dead Island, Borderlands 2, KotoR 2
This x a billion! Seriously.I loled when the title got censored. The game has been out since '97, no reason to think it's a spoiler anymore jesus christ wtf.
Also, the whole death of her was pretty big back then; not to sound grandpa age old but we didnt have walkthroughs/lets plays/youtube back then, so we couldnt be spoiled near as easy. But nothing is ever as big once you go back through it again, its just ourselves being desensitized to the situation.
I agree, Merlin was the one who brought it to my attention and wanted it changed (I for one, think of this). While he said the age of the game is no excuse I figured there just might be that ONE new fan who happens to be playing FFVII for the first time completely unaware, because I can relate to stumbling onto a Spoiler you didn't want to know.I loled when the title got censored. The game has been out since '97, no reason to think it's a spoiler anymore jesus christ wtf.
I was tempted to change it to "Aeris's ***** isn't all that" for the funny double entendre though
...How the hell can you compare Final Fantasy VII with The Darkness? There's a whole decade between the release dates for crying out loud! The main differences are that there's actual voice acting in The Darkness as opposed to FFVII, and The Darkness has better graphics.
Two completely different games from different ages, my friend.
Pick another game from '97 or pre-'97, compare, and then I'll probably take you a little seriously. Because back in the day when Rocky was a youngin' and not a grandpa, that scene was really sad.
EDIT: It sounds like you've only just played FFVII. Which isn't a big deal, but ten plus years later it's not going to have the same effect, is it?
Last edited by Unknown Entity; 02-23-2011 at 06:11 PM.
"I used to be active here like you, then I took an arrow in the knee."
>>>------------->
Suddenly... clutter.:
Warning free for over eight years. Feels good.
No, I'm not comparing the two games, I'm just talking about character death in general. Killing off a character when it would do very little to the story is a lazy way of adding shock value to a narrative. as for the comparison of character death, I put up a spoiler for final fantasy tactics at the top post.
I played FF7 twice in my life. once when I first got it when I was like 14 or something and thought it's story and characters were strong if a little silly at times. When I was playing I was surprised that the game was trying to tell me that the two loved each other because I didn't really see anything that counted as flirtatious or affectionate between the two. Other than that I thought it was a good game. Then I played it recently and I was even less impressed. Whenever I say something like that, people assume I want shiny graphics or voice acting. No. I love those old crappy polygon graphics. I love the text boxes. It all seems a bit more tasty to me. the music is memorable and all that crap, but the story and characters were just so cliched, and the character design either stupid, pointless, or impractical. To me, FF7 is adequate. nothing more nothing less. But Believe me, I would rather play FF7 than FFX. I still have flashbacks from that atrocity.
Edit: Also, time has no bearing on the quality of a story. by that logic, Transformers 2 is better than Citizen Kane.
Edit 2: Also, it most likely wouldn't have been to difficult for a first person view of Cloud and Aeris making out in a n FMV. Or even an implication that they've gone on a brief date or something while they're saving the world (I call bullshit on the gold saucer, that was not sweet, endearing or romantic, it was more like siblings going on a theme park tour.
Last edited by Antidrall; 02-23-2011 at 07:32 PM.
No, I know what you were doing. Maybe I should have worded it as "You can't compare those two death scenes as there's a whole decade between them."
...in the same way, I like a good black and white movie. They can be a bit tasty, if not chiche too. I still don't understand how you compare.I played FF7 twice in my life. once when I first got it when I was like 14 or something and thought it's story and characters were strong if a little silly at times. When I was playing I was surprised that the game was trying to tell me that the two loved each other because I didn't really see anything that counted as flirtatious or affectionate between the two. Other than that I thought it was a good game. Then I played it recently and I was even less impressed. Whenever I say something like that, people assume I want shiny graphics or voice acting. No. I love those old crappy polygon graphics. I love the text boxes. It all seems a bit more tasty to me. the music is memorable and all that crap, but the story and characters were just so cliched, and the character design either stupid, pointless, or impractical. To me, FF7 is adequate. nothing more nothing less. But Believe me, I would rather play FF7 than FFX. I still have flashbacks from that atrocity.
I first played the game eleven/twelve years ago, and didn't see the death scene until a good few years later (when the game first came out, I didn't really understand how to play an RPG and thought it was boring, if I'm honest). I thought it was amazing. I know that not everyone will share that opinion, and good for them.
Yes, because making out is the ultimate display of love. Shoot me.Edit 2: Also, it most likely wouldn't have been to difficult for a first person view of Cloud and Aeris making out in a n FMV. Or even an implication that they've gone on a brief date or something while they're saving the world (I call bullshit on the gold saucer, that was not sweet, endearing or romantic, it was more like siblings going on a theme park tour.
While I'll agree that their date did seem a bit sibling-y, you still pick up on something. I still get the chills during the scene when they go on the ride together, when Aeris tells Cloud that she wants to meet [the real] "him".
Skip to like... 3:30 and watch until they leave.
You don't need to show two people making out to see love between them.
So, the death scene isn't all that, eh?:
"I used to be active here like you, then I took an arrow in the knee."
>>>------------->
Suddenly... clutter.:
Warning free for over eight years. Feels good.
Okay, I always forget to represent myself when I talk about the make out thing. One of the problems I have with romances in any form of modern media is that they seem so artificially crafted. They're all about holding hands, sitting under the stars, looking longingly into each others eyes saying "I love you, Bella but I want you to marry me so that I can be a controling, domineering man and we have to do it early so you won't have a chance to look out and find someone who's willing to make a connection with you that isn't based on me stalking you." (Twilight: a source of infinite jokes). But let me ask you this. Is that really love? There's no spark, no sign of passion. When I was... "In love" (I'd rather not talk about it) The only time we felt connected to each other was when we were talking about things we both hated, or furiously making out to Red hot chili peppers or that one REO Speedwagon song. With Cloud and Aeris, they're doing exactly what I'm saying here. There's no moment when I felt that the two could ever engage in the raw storm of emotion that you or I could. They seem more like one of those couples on those soap opera except given combat skills and thrown into a Sci-Fi fantasy setting.
What did you think of Wall-E Antidroll?
That film showed 'love' quite effectivly, and the charcters were for the msot part limited to the expressive capabilities of a block and a bubble.
My position on this:
I don't think they[Cloud and Aeris] were supposed to be 'in love'.
I never saw it, but heard that it was good.
I agree with you on Cloud and Aeris. But the idea that they're in love was implied and this game's ridiculously large fanbase will most likely swarm my house like zombies in the Dawn of the Dead remake if I ever said it to a crowd of them out in public.
And as for when Aeris dies, I was angry at Sephiroth too. I was prepared to go on a crusade of vengeance after I shut her eyes. But Cloud grasped her corpse and started whining to Sephiroth about his feelings. I'm sorry, but I would go into a ****ing bloodlust with the improbably large sword rather than exchange a poetry slam with a murderer.
I know exactly what you mean, Video games havn't been around forever, compared to even movies they are new. Saying that time has no bearing on how well RPGs and videosgames are presented is like saying there is no difference between talky films of the 1930s and movies from 1980s+. The industry grows and learns with experience, not to mention the technological tools of Graphics and spoken Dialog (tone and passion of voice acting can portray a lot more then a slab of text).
Shoot me. My sentiments exactly, making out is by far not the best way to show emotion or passion. It has its place in every relationship, yes, but mostly in the basement of prepubescent frat parties with morons who try to determine their self-worth with meaningless strings of "relationships"
Don't really mean to pick on you but that sounds like one hollow relationship and while not knowing the whole story I certainly can't be accurate, but from that statement alone it dosn't surprise me that you used the past tense WAS in love (Barring a horrible accident or maybe just moving that tore you apart). Either way one persons definition of love does not always apply to everyone so using your own experiences your opinion may hold true to you but I can guarantee its not the case for everyone else.
Even if they were never meant to be "in love" I think a main point was also that Aeris was a "pure, good person" who was struck down for no reason other then insane evil that could drive someone like Cloud to have an outburst. It dosn't seem like it to me that it hangs on his every sentiment and action from then on in the game. If one of my friends was killed right in front of me (in a way where my life wasn't immediately in danger next) I would have a similar outburst, and that would be just for a friend. Was Cloud supposed to just go "meh, I have several other companions and even another love interest to take her place, no biggie, Catch ya later Sephy"?
So what I'm saying is that I don't think it was supposed to be an ultra love-passion driven vendetta that Cloud went on but I'm also not saying that no love existed there at all either. In "reality" Cloud and Aeris just met each other and I think its the whole possibility of a grand relationship they could of had that people rag on about. Not every great relationship starts off burning hot, they're not stupid teenagers that met at a bar, get drunk then think that their love knows no bounds (in contradiction to your artificial love theory where people are all over-sentimental). The target audience at the time was likey for what? 8-15 year olds? Should there have been a hardcore sex scene to show that they were serious?
Playstaion ID: Setzer_All-in
- "Phoenix Downs are your friends. But remember Cloud they don't always work. I'm looking at yooou Aeris"
-"Immortal maybe... but not invincible!" -Prince (of Persia)
Aeris dying was emotional for the plain simple reason that it is sad are you dead inside? Secondly granted you don't see them 'gettingt it on' so to speak but if you read between the lines you can see there is some mutual attraction there, you seem to be only scratching the surface with this comment you should look a little deeper.
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