A question about the "RPG" Genre.

[Confession]

Hi there folks. Firstly I want to bring to your attention that I am ranting about "Role Playing Games" not "Rocket Propelled Grenades" So if you're some crazy yank looking to blow some Nazi's back to the stone ages. Wrong thread.
Anyway so me and my mate went on some crazy ass rant at each other about RPG, what it stands for and how certain games (Oblivion for example) are classified as RPG's but other games are not.

This got us thinking about the whole Ideology behind what genres games are actually put under. So we came to the conclusion that majority or games are actually RPG or Adventure, we also came to the conclusion that majority of Adventure games are infact RPG's.
If someone can clarify the difference for me, Cheers.

Okay so heres the basis behind our ideas.

Wikipedia states that a "Role Playing Game" is:

Players assume the roles of a character, or take control of one or more avatars, in a fictional setting. Actions taken within the game succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.

So if we think about that, any game with a central character(s) role and within said game you have to overcome obsiticles is an RPG.
So even though all the games that we consider RPG's do fall under that catagory, alot of games that we don't consider RPG's do aswell.

Example:
Game: Halo 3.
Genre: First person Shooter.
RPG guidelines
Do you undertake control of a central character: Yes (Master Chief)
Actions taken within the game cause you to fail or succeed: Yes

So what stops this game from being called an RPG aswell as a first person shooter.
Oblivion, is greatly considered an RPG but the only real difference is The free roaming and Leveling, You shoot in Halo, You can shoot in Oblivion, You can Use a sword in Halo, you can use one in Oblivion.

tl;dr: what key thing sets apart RPG's from games that have the same characteristics and guidelines to be an RPG, but are not classified as one.

[Jin]

Wikipedia states that a "Role Playing Game" is:
Players assume the roles of a character, or take control of one or more avatars, in a fictional setting. Actions taken within the game succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.

Role playing games and role playing video games are different things. Which is this a definition of? Table top roleplaying games are called such for obvious reasons: because you personally take on another role. It doesn't have the same connotation for video games though. Video game RPGs, at least in the early days, were based or at least inspired by the stat and level systems of table tops roleplaying games like Dungeons and Dragons. The RPG moniker, when talking about video games, is not a reference to the role one plays in the game. It's a reference to the stat and level based character progression model along with the other tropes that are associated with actual role playing games.

So while the kind of role playing (in the literal sense) one does is not much different whether playing Halo or Final Fantasy, both are a completely different thing than playing a table top role playing game. No games are role playing games in the sense that Dungeons and Dragons is (not even D&D video games). Halo, however is also not a video role playing game because it does not abide by the practices and conventions of the video game adaptations of table top role playing games or their successors.

[Andromeda]

You are quite right that in a very literal sense just about all games are RPGs with like the exceptions of sims and RTS, I think. Though in the more traditional view of RPGs you are normally playing a role and depending on your actions are how the story goes, but most RPGs and most games in general typically only provide you with one action. So you're not so much playing any role at all so much as just passing through a list of pre-defined events that have a fixed out come and you're never allowed to deviate from it. So there's not really role to be played. That is in the most strictest of interpretations.

What really ends up breaking down the genres and dividing them is gameplay mechanics and execution. RPG in a more commonly accepted term is the idea of growth, the character(s) you control will improve and grow in a physical stats or abilities way. So when they say that they are adding RPG elements into a game like a FPS it usually means they are adding growth. Though RPGs are not strictly just that.

Other qualities though not necessary usually stats based or number based. You'll always see your health and almost always in a numerical value. You'll be able to switch gear which comes back to altering and affect stats to grow and improve your character. There is also usually the ability to buff or debuff characters and enemies. And going back to numbers fighting purpose is usually to gain experience rather than to clear out a map. So combat is an important part, but can be ignored or side tracked and not change or alter the ability to complete the game. Most RPGs are a huge numbers game.

Smaller elements are things like crafting items, talking to NPCs, towns, questing, party member relations, etc. Also typically RPGs you can waste time back tracking, exploring or just hanging around and the game does not penalize you for it. Others like FPS you may be on a time limit or just simply stuck in a map where the only thing available for you is the current mission.

Hope that helps. ^^;

[Dagachan]

Wikipedia states that a "Role Playing Game" is:
Players assume the roles of a character, or take control of one or more avatars, in a fictional setting. Actions taken within the game succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.

I think it's the best definition of role playing I've ever read.

In fact every game where you can assume role of one or more character is a RPG. This means that RPG are not only videogames like Final Fantasy or MMOPRG, but in the RPG genre you can find play-by-chat RPG and games played with sheets like D&D too.

Then you can distinguish between:
-RPG where the story is just written and it doesn't depend on your action(like the offline RPG)
-RPG where the only objective is to increase your pgs parameters to enjoy with friends(like MMORPG)
-RPG where the story is created by the actions of your pg and other pgs(like in play-by-chat)

Then you can also say that in classical meaning RPGs have a fantasy background, but now there are other kind of RPG from every genre.

Sincerly I think you can call RPG every game where you can join and have a specific role in the story.

My indecision is only about MMORPG that are called RPG but there isn't a story...so why they call them RPG? I know it's very difficult to create a story online in real time when people come and go continuosly but maybe a general story may be interesting in them too...

[SOLDIER #819]

Unlike Jin, I would actually say that some video games could be "true" RPGs depending on how you approach the game itself. If you enter it with a particular mindset, create a character that fits into the world and stick with it, then you're more or less role-playing. For that reason it is impossible for something like Final Fantasy to be an RPG in the strictest sense, but other types may allow you to do it.

Unless you do role-playing outright like with live action role-playing, it's hard to tell whether or not you're actually doing it these days. Pen & paper isn't necessarily role-playing, either. Some people will roll a character and simply dungeon delve like in Diablo or an MMO. People also use a lot of pre-made campaigns with fairly limited choices, so it's not as if you have free reign (and is not unlike a video game). So I think it really comes down to the play style. MMOs are probably one of the biggest opportunities to role-play since you can act out a character in a more or less free environment AND

As Daga pointed out there are also play-by-chat... which if I have interpreted correctly may be one of the purer forms of role-play, unfiltered by any system whatsoever. Though I suppose even those would have some rules. On the other hand a lot of role-plays here on TFF feel less like actual role-playing and more like a sort of novel, where people will sort of share their characters to make the story flow. That mentality is very FF.

[Jin]

I just don't think one is capable of being in the same mindset while playing a video game as one would be while playing a table top game, even if one attempts to approach them the same way. Even when the players are bad at role playing, there is a connection formed between them and their character which I have never seen reproduced in a video game. I'm not entirely sure how the psychology behind it works or why it does, but it's a different experience than one gets while playing a video game.

It could be the simple fact that in a table top game one's experiences are variables and the world, dynamic. When playing a video game, even an MMO, one is playing through something static. The developers create a world that can have a plethora of options and things to do, but ultimately can only follow its programming. One can interact with the dynamic unpredictability of others in an MMO, but the world itself is still static and predictable. With table top games, not only are players engaging with other players, but also the world itself through the DM. The DM doesn't know how the players are going to react. He or she often has to adjust what is happening in the game world based on what the players do; anyone who has played as DM can attest to the aggravation of the players stumbling upon a possibility he or she didn't account for. Therefore a dialogue exists between the players and the world. The players are able to shape the world and the world is able to react to them just as they are able to react to the world and together they evolve. There's a certain sense of agency in this that, as yet, has not been reproduced in video games.

[SOLDIER #819]

While I do agree that there need to be player(s) AND a DM, how you interpret what the form of the latter should be is pretty ambiguous. A DM takes controls of the world and introduces everything that the player needs to interact with. It should not matter whether that DM is a human or a computer. I agree that video games have their limitations, but they still succeed in providing a world for player(s) to interact with.

To say that some pen & paper RPGs provide for a dynamic world is true, but that is usually only during planning. As a DM it is good to plan in advance to provide for a smooth and unique adventure. The type of person that can operate a game on the fly exists for sure, but there are certain things you can only do when you have planned in advance. The notion of a player being able to "shape the world" as much as s/he likes given the character's limits is illusory. Limitations of either freedom or depth exist regardless as the DM will always lack something which will therefore impact the number of possible options a player is given in reality, yet people are still able to role-play. Granted, computer games do have more of these limitations, but that does not mean that by virtue of it being a computer game it completely cripples the possibility of the act.

I think the fact that people treat tabletop games differently from video games is what really makes it difficult to role-play. When one starts out in an MMO, most people only think about what class and spec they will play rather than what sort of character and personality they'd like to be. The opportunity is there... with WoW they even have RP servers, but most people would rather keep that fourth wall broken. Although there are technically ways to do that and still take on a new personality.

I suppose I sort of jumped the gun and tried to define "role-playing game" without defining what "role-playing" is... which could vary in meaning from person to person. Oops.

[Jin]

I suppose I sort of jumped the gun and tried to define "role-playing game" without defining what "role-playing" is... which could vary in meaning from person to person.

Actually, it would be better for both of us if I make it clear that I am not attempting to define "role playing" nor am I attempting define "role playing game". I am using the term after the fact, after it has already been defined as meaning table top role playing games (which happened before video role playing games, obviously). All I am arguing when I say that video role playing games are not "true role playing games" is that they are dubbed RPGs not for the same reasons that table top games are, but rather because they were based on the statistical system of character progression that already existed in table top games already termed RPGs.

I think we may have been debating two separate points.

[SOLDIER #819]

... What were we debating again? Our topics of debate must be so close that it seems like we're on the same page, but far enough away to render it all pointless.

I was trying to say that role-playing is possible in either, and that some computer RPGs are not so sorely lacking in the elements that tabletop RPGs have that role-playing is impossible. Therefore, some computer RPGs are potentially of the classical RPG genre.

... Oh well!

[DragonHeart]

It's mainly a marketing thing. While technically just about any given game is an RPG, the genre classification has come to mean something very specific. When you go to the store to buy an RPG, you're looking for a game with a certain set of common elements and characteristics. Third person perspective, multiple party members, epic storyline, etc.

So really what it comes down to is that RPG, while technically having only one definition, can be used in at least two different contexts. RPG as a genre classification and RPG as its original, literal definition.

It's rather like novels. By literal definition, most novels are actually romances. By genre classification, not so much. It's really a weird concept in general, but it makes sense. Kind of. If you don't think about it too hard lol.

~DragonHeart~

[Chaos_Weapon]

The wiki point is there. Most games should be considered RPGs. I dunno. It makes it seem as if every video game every made, that had a character you controlled was or is an RPG. My idea of what an RPG is shot now. I don't even have an opinion on what an RPG symbolizes now. Hey, if the shoe fits, wear it.