Brotherhood of Doom v. The Masters: Open Q&A

[Lucid]

I refuse to give out my MSN to just anyone.

Couldn't you have just written out a suggestion to me in PM?

I don't seem to be able to post in your BoD chat.

[Akira]

I've learned from past experiences that staying in contact does not only avoid messes caused by confusing posts, etc., but also effectively helps to offer a much better show. Previously, I tried just attacking my opponents (prior to this war) at random which usually lead to unneeded confusion for both parties involved. I believe it was Loco who advised me of the advantages of collaboraty posts, and I must say, the current battle is very enjoyable.

I for one wish to express my appreciation for Paradoxical Prophet's cooperation in our common battle, even if we may be enemies. He has been very tolerant with my proposed ideas and has also, with his permission, helped to increase the overall flow of the posts. I can only hope that he can make a few more enquiries with me as I have with him, so that this battle will truly become the epic that we all have pictured in our minds.

Let the battles rage on!

^ I fealt that was relevant to the current discussion between Nin` and Lucid and may present an example of how contact between both participants can help the battle considerably.

Git yo' shizne up Bruddah Bloodaxe! Wouldne' wanna be expelled prematurely, yo!

[Prodigal Madness]

In my opinion, your battle with Prophet certainly shines due to that, Akira.

As I didn't notice within the rules, when a person fails to post within the time limit - does that mean their character is to be slain? I noted that the reserve failing to post ends the battle... But if not, that would allow the first string of fighters the option of not posting to avoid death. Though I'm sure neither side would opt for that, the rules don't say what happens to the character. Unless I passed over something quite obvious.

[Akira]

As I understand it, the participant is completely replaced by the reservist, which also entails the death that would result from a loss. So basically, if a reservist does for some reason intervene in a battle, the first warrior (that gets replaced) is pulled from battle completely, and therefore escapes a possible death.

However, the reservist is at that point completely responsible for the outcome of the battle. In the event that the reservist loses, he is obviously to be executed by the victorious warrior. Only exception to this would be if the reservist were to win, at which point, he reserves the right to execute his opponent accordingly.

If I have for some reason misinterpreted the established and agreed upon rules, please inform me of any fallicies within my deduction. Although it wasn't written any where in fat letters, this is what I thought seemed most logical and also was fitting for the context. Then again, interpreting a context is never full-proof, and therefore open to mistakes and misinterpretations.

[Prodigal Madness]

I understand your viewpoint.

On one part, I'm curious as to what Loco intends for it. On the other, it seems that the first string players have a way out of the battle, when they're the ones that are supposed to be more important and setting example. It's like choosing that you want to keep a rook or knight in chess, and tossing a pawn away instead - because if you viewpoint is correct, the important players have nothing to lose. They just refrain from posting for the time limit, and they get replaced and don't have to lose their character.

[Zephyr]

I can only hope that he can make a few more enquiries with me as I have with him, so that this battle will truly become the epic that we all have pictured in our minds.

Check your PM box. :p

I agree that keeping in contact with each other has helped Akira and I forge our fight into something that is a rather nice and coherent thing. Of course, I tend to not want to do anything with my opponents characters, in fear that I will get the characterisation wrong and offend them - but that could just be my pen and paper gaming ettiquite. Sort of like using another person's dice, and all that.

I for one wish to express my appreciation for Paradoxical Prophet's cooperation in our common battle, even if we may be enemies.

Aww. And here I thought we were doing this for fun.

They just refrain from posting for the time limit, and they get replaced and don't have to lose their character.

Yes, you are quite right. But in a way, also wrong. If we had more people to put on the front line, I would have signed up as a reserve. Why? If you send the pawns out first, to borrow your metaphor, then you can pull them back out without consequence, and commit your stronger fighters after you've had a chance to gauge the talent of your enemy.

It's a common tactic. I use it to train Magikarp. ;)

As a side note; What you are implying is that the reserves are somehow less able than the main fighters. Let's assume that you are correct, what does that mean then, if the main fighters pull out? Sure, their character is safe and sound, but the reserve is less able in combat and will likely lose. Thus, the front-liners' characters may be spared, but they've just lost the war. Hrm. Seems somehow self-defeating to pull out, unless the reserve is *more* able.

[Nin`]

I felt that was relevant to the current discussion between Nin` and Lucid and may present an example of how contact between both participants can help the battle considerably.

Danke mein Bruder. But I weyken now that Lucid and me have resolved our minor problems, for the most part. This keeping in contact with your enemy thing is a good idea, yo!

As I didn't notice within the rules, when a person fails to post within the time limit - does that mean their character is to be slain?

Interesting question. But the best person to ask would probably be Argentos/LocoColt.

From what I can logically establish however, no, I don't think they would be slain. The reason why I think this is because I'm sure that any character can only be slain once a victor has been decided - and thus a death post granted (which may only involve two characters).

No death post, no death.

This would mean that being replaced does not imply being slain. They simply walk away.

Makes sense to me.

[Prodigal Madness]

No death post, no death.

This would mean that being replaced does not imply being slain. They simply walk away.

Makes sense to me.

Though it doesn't make sense as to why the replacements risk their characters, but not the main combatants. Trying to get this point across before Loco replies. Failing to post within the time might as well be falling in battle. What risk do any of you MAIN string fighters have? You don't risk your characters in the fight. Only us reserve fighters actually risk losing our characters if we participate.

I had thought the whole point of this war was death to the losers? While the reserves keep a *battle* from being lost, being replaced means you, yourself, lost. Anyway, less someone directs something at me, I'll wait for Loco's reply.



And as for the death post, why can it only be between two people? =/ The opposing player could always finish off the one that, effectively, lost the fight at any time. The official death post is for after the battle has been judged and a winner declared. Again, being replaced means you lose. IMO, that's a death warrant right there.

[Akira]

Well, there's one simple reason why no one is going to wait out the time limit just to escape the battle...what would the point be? If that were the case with any of the fighters involved in this war, I would suggest they officially surrender their characters and leave the according faction. Fact is, people submitted their services for war so that they could FIGHT! No one is forcing them. Why join a war if you don't even feel like fighting? If anybody truly fell under this example that you proposed Prodiginal Madness, then they might as well have relented from ever siging up for the war. They would have lost just as little had they just not signed on at all.

And to correct you, the main fighters have just as much to lose as the reserves. The reserves are only officially in danger (in the case that they lose) once they enter the battle. If they do not enter, the main fighter is still the one who's putting his character on the line. And as I already pointed out, it's trivial to contemplate the possibility of someone dropping out purposely.

In fact, Prophet presented an excellent arguement as to the preposterousness of such a mindset. The fighters whole faction may risk losing if he/she were to drop out, so it seems very unlikely that someone would abandon their comrades at a time like this.

[Nin`]

[Nin`] I honestly don’t think that these matters have ever been discussed actually, at least not in such depth. I should add here that the following is my own interpretation on things, but I feel it still makes relative sense.

[Prodigal Madness] Though it doesn't make sense as to why the replacements risk their characters, but not the main combatants.

[Nin`] Eh? How did you come to this conclusion? Let’s see…

[Prodigal Madness] Failing to post within the time might as well be falling in battle.

[Nin`] There is a difference between falling in battle and walking away. The RP characters are forced to walk away (who are then disqualified) because those controlling them failed to post (who forfeit the battle).

[Prodigal Madness] What risk do any of you MAIN string fighters have? You don't risk your characters in the fight. Only us reserve fighters actually risk losing our characters if we participate.

[Nin`] I don’t see how you came to this idea. If “main string fighters” can walk away, then there is no reason why reserve fighters can’t either (though why they even chose to enter/select themselves in the first place would be a wonder (and quite pointless overall) if they decided to do this); it would just mean that your faction forfeits the overall battle. Technically speaking it’s not the RP character that actually loses anything, since the RP character is never actually beaten; it’s the one controlling them. They lose by default, and so their character is naturally withdrawn/disqualified.

[Prodigal Madness] I had thought the whole point of this war was death to the losers?

[Nin`] As I said above, characters that flee/walk away haven’t technically lost anything since they haven’t actually been beaten; they’re disqualified. The ones controlling them would simply lose by default, but we obviously can’t kill them. But above all that, and more importantly, is that the losing club will be annihilated – whether characters also are or not. This is the main aim of the war, to destroy the opposing club. This is achieved by winning battles, either by default or a stunning victory. Of course I think its safe to say that we’d all prefer the latter.

[Prodigal Madness] And as for the death post, why can it only be between two people?

[Nin`] Because these battles are strictly one on one events. Only one character can effectively be beaten in battle and thus actually lose the fight via judgement. If a character is disqualified because the one controlling them failed to post within the set time limit, then they’re disqualified from the entire battle – meaning it doesn’t include them anymore. They’re out.

[Prodigal Madness] The official death post is for after the battle has been judged and a winner declared. Again, being replaced means you lose. IMO, that's a death warrant right there.

[Nin`] Being replaced means that a person is out, i.e. loses by default because they didn’t follow the set time rules. The RP character has lost nothing, they are simply disqualified. Only when an RP character is beaten in battle can a death post be issued. If they’re not beaten in battle then how can you hope to slay them?

[Nin`] If a reserve fighter didn’t post within the set time limit they would also lose by default, with their character disqualified. That side would then lose the overall battle by default. Which would be a pity but a win none the less.

[Nin`] Having said all that however, perhaps those who do fail to post within the time limit should surrender their characters in the event of their clubs defeat. But since this all wasn't really discussed or made clear before the war began (at least from what I've read) then surrending characters should perhaps be optional. But eitherway, a defeat is a defeat.

[Anomaly]

Huh. I really can't imagine any one willingly giving up just to preserve one RP character. I mean, I know a lot of people can get attached to their characters, but if they 'die' then its just a chance to evolve and learn from your past mistakes. Hell, if you lose, that may mean there's something wrong with that particular character to begin with (or at least how you used it).

It probably wasn't discussed because neither I, nor ToroMor have the mind-set where such pettiness would be considered an issue. I guess if it comes up, and a reservist wants to keep their character after a defeat they can always beg. You might get mercy. If you're willing to stoop to that...

Meh, we'll discuss it if it comes up. No point in theorizing right now.

[ToroMor]

I could not agree more.

If anyone of my fighters is found guilty of such cowardice (which I deem impossible), I will decapitate him on the spot. Otherwise, he who befouls himself in such a pitiful way, is punished enough by having to continue his unworthy existence.

[Lucid]

This is so ****ing bothersome...

It still gives me a headache when I read it and I know it's just going to get worse from here on out...

PS - I'll have my post finished either today or tomorrow morning...

[LocoColt04]

I've learned from past experiences that staying in contact does not only avoid messes caused by confusing posts, etc., but also effectively helps to offer a much better show. Previously, I tried just attacking my opponents (prior to this war) at random which usually lead to unneeded confusion for both parties involved. I believe it was Loco who advised me of the advantages of collaboraty posts, and I must say, the current battle is very enjoyable.

This is why I suggest such things. Glad to know some of us are enjoying it. ^_^

when a person fails to post within the time limit - does that mean their character is to be slain? I noted that the reserve failing to post ends the battle... But if not, that would allow the first string of fighters the option of not posting to avoid death.

To be honest, I hadn't thought about it. Theoretically, the person who disappears should be hunted down and slain IF the reservist loses. On the contrary, if the reservist wins... perhaps they both survive? Remember, it is the responsibility of the reservist to write in the reason behind the foreman's disappearance. I'll keep adding quotes until we reach some sort of conclusion. Hopefully it's something everyone can agree with.

As I understand it, the participant is completely replaced by the reservist, which also entails the death that would result from a loss. So basically, if a reservist does for some reason intervene in a battle, the first warrior (that gets replaced) is pulled from battle completely, and therefore escapes a possible death.
...
If I have for some reason misinterpreted the established and agreed upon rules, please inform me of any fallicies within my deduction. Although it wasn't written any where in fat letters, this is what I thought seemed most logical and also was fitting for the context. Then again, interpreting a context is never full-proof, and therefore open to mistakes and misinterpretations.

Let's try to reach an end here; if it comes down to the choice of Anomaly and ToroMor themselves, so be it, but hopefully I can come up with something we can all agree with.

On the other, it seems that the first string players have a way out of the battle, when they're the ones that are supposed to be more important and setting example.

Unfortunately, this was never my intention. Now, in case any of this is aimed at Bryan, his circumstances were unavoidable, and I wanted to point this out now.

What you are implying is that the reserves are somehow less able than the main fighters. Let's assume that you are correct, what does that mean then, if the main fighters pull out? Sure, their character is safe and sound, but the reserve is less able in combat and will likely lose. Thus, the front-liners' characters may be spared, but they've just lost the war. Hrm. Seems somehow self-defeating to pull out, unless the reserve is *more* able.

This statement sounds foolproof in my opinion.

From what I can logically establish however, no, I don't think they would be slain. The reason why I think this is because I'm sure that any character can only be slain once a victor has been decided - and thus a death post granted (which may only involve two characters).

No death post, no death.

I should have considered this before the war, because technically, this is accurate.

Though it doesn't make sense as to why the replacements risk their characters, but not the main combatants. Trying to get this point across before Loco replies.

...

And as for the death post, why can it only be between two people? =/ The opposing player could always finish off the one that, effectively, lost the fight at any time. The official death post is for after the battle has been judged and a winner declared. Again, being replaced means you lose. IMO, that's a death warrant right there.

Point 1: I agree.
Point 2: I like this suggestion the most. Let's go back to pre-war here, where Anomaly joked that a non-poster had wandered off to eat a baby. Why then, shouldn't the (obviously off-guard) non-poster be slain AFTER the battle has ended if his or her reservist has lost?


So here's what I'm thinking.

If someone is unable to post within the time limit (or to withdraw, because it's the same situation under different circumstances), his or her character is considered MIA for whatever reason the reservist chooses: injury, shiny treasure, or harlots... you know, whatever makes sense at the time.

If the reservist wins, the MIA character is considered spared.

If the reservist loses, the winner is granted the kill post and then seeks out the original target to "finish the job."

This is the most fair thing I can think of. If Anomaly or ToroMor disagree with this, I need to know immediately. It will ultimately be their decision, but we need to reach a conclusion quickly.



edit:
Also, this is an option... if mercy is available at the time.

It probably wasn't discussed because neither I, nor ToroMor have the mind-set where such pettiness would be considered an issue. I guess if it comes up, and a reservist wants to keep their character after a defeat they can always beg. You might get mercy. If you're willing to stoop to that...

[Akira]

If the reservist wins, the MIA character is considered spared.

If the reservist loses, the winner is granted the kill post and then seeks out the original target to "finish the job."

This is the most fair thing I can think of. If Anomaly or ToroMor disagree with this, I need to know immediately. It will ultimately be their decision, but we need to reach a conclusion quickly.

I personally agree that this is the best solution. Although I don't have any say on this (I'll leave that to Big T and Anomoly), I don't see why anyone would object with it. It seems the fairest way to deal with such events, should they come up.

[Anomaly]

Hmm...it is a technical forfeit, I'll grant. But I must confess that I'm reminded of the paradox of Schrödinger's cat. If the combatent has, as we have established, wondered off, in the specific kill post it seems slightly ridiculous to devote a few sentences that basically amount to "and after I killed that guy I so epically slew, I had to track down that one guy from before...because...um...I do!"

Bare in mind this is all rendered irrelevent dependent on the circumstance that your side loses the war. Regardless of your character being assasinated, your clan is dead, which implies that your character is part of the body count regardless of your actual presence or participation.

The only circumstance I could truly see this coming up in and being a problem is if a Reservist loses their fight BUT their side wins. Do both characters deserve to die, even though the clan as a whole is victorious? That doesn't make much sense given after the kill post the logical next step is not tracking down the previous enemy, but recouping the losses of ones clan.

Bah, I just think its ridiculous. There has to be a better way to resolve this than this two birds with one stone approach. It just doesn't work logically in ALL possible scenerios.

Sadly I don't know if anything would.

Hmm...
Maybe we're thinking about this a little too two dimensionally. In the post war, we could set it up so that the losing original fighter (who has lost due to his reservist losing) has a chance to defend his character in a short combat situation. Nothing like the length of the war of course, maybe two week tops. At the end of which it can be judged, and if he has defend himself adequetly he may keep his character BUT NOT KILL the original Victor. Obviously if he declined this chance to defend himself, his character would be considered automatically forfeit and a casualty of war.

Does that sound too complicated?

Let me see if I can break it down.

Person A fights Person B.

Person A must leave the battle for whatever reason.

Person C fights Person B and loses. Person B kills C.

After the End post of the War, Person A is given the chance to defend himself.

Person A either declines or cannot defend themself for whatever reason. Person B kills Person A

OR

Person A accepts the challenge, fights and proves himself. Person A and B both live on.

Maybe I'm just too interested in maintaining a sense of reality. I dunno. What do you think ToroMor?

[ToroMor]

I totally agree with Anomaly on the reality issue.

But I don't like the post-war fights. What if the problems, let's say with a broken down internet line, persist? That would prolong the whole stuff too long.

Why not keep it simple? If a reserve comes in, the original fighter is out of the game and that's it. I see no point in his pursuit. Like in a tag team wrestling match. Fighters outside the ring cannot be counted out. And in our case, they cannot return either.

Or compare it with a "real" fight. Let's say your buddy has a fistfight against some thug. Then his mom calls him for lunch. You step in and give the f*cker a kick in the balls and your buddy runs off. Whoever will win this fight, your buddy will probably never meet the thug again. Instead he will eat this pizza and have a good time. And later, visit you in hospital. Of course, there is a small chance that he will meet the thug in hospital too, but that's just theoretical :p

[Prodigal Madness]

Well, if you want the oddities of the first fighter dying despite having wandered off or something...

What about the oddity of battling for your life in the middle of a war, and just walking away? I don't think there's a single person in here that would would hesitate to strike that person down immediately. Even say they didn't immediately die from trying to leave... Why would they be leaving a life or death battle that their faction would be obliterated upon a loss?

I can see both the main combatant and their reserve dying and yet their side wins. We've already agreed that the opposing army would basically be fodder against our fighters. So in a life or death battle, there'd simply be too much going on for someone to come "save" them.

And Toro, how often has that happened to you? >_> Seems more like you'd get your ass handed to you when mommy came out to call you in. Y'know, rather than let you go off for lunch with mommy. :p

My opinions anyway. :D

[darkViVi]

Well PM.. if you haven't noticed.. This is not a -real- war. Computers may break down, internet connections may screw up, would it then be fair that a members character can no longer be used? Dumb...

[ToroMor]

What about the oddity of battling for your life in the middle of a war, and just walking away?

Of course that's odd. As much as it is inevitable.

And Toro, how often has that happened to you? >_> Seems more like you'd get your ass handed to you when mommy came out to call you in. Y'know, rather than let you go off for lunch with mommy. :p

To be honest, I would abandon lunch for a good fight. Or perhaps ask mommy if she could bring me some sandwiches while I beat the crap out of some idiot :D

I rest my case.

[Akira]

It seems as Prodigal Madness is the only one here feeling the need to voice dissatisfaction with the current debate. Since this is ultimately up to the two leaders of each according faction, and both have already voiced their feelings towards the pointlessness of this debate, we should just quit arguing about it entirely. I mean, if the repesentatives of both sides affected are in agreement, why further linger on the subject when only one person seems to still be unclear about things?

Or compare it with a "real" fight. Let's say your buddy has a fistfight against some thug. Then his mom calls him for lunch. You step in and give the f*cker a kick in the balls and your buddy runs off. Whoever will win this fight, your buddy will probably never meet the thug again. Instead he will eat this pizza and have a good time. And later, visit you in hospital. Of course, there is a small chance that he will meet the thug in hospital too, but that's just theoretical :p

You never cease to make me laugh my ass off Big T! I had to picture that literally happening in my head...

[LocoColt04]

So if I'm understanding the sentiment here, we should do something like this:

If the starter is MIA and the reservist loses, but the starter's side wins the war, s/he lives.
If the starter is MIA and the reservist loses, AND the starter's side loses the war, s/he dies.
If the starter is MIA and the reservist wins, above points are null and the starter lives.

Is that the idea here? Because I can see that working out.

[Anomaly]

If the starter is MIA and the reservist loses, but the starter's side wins the war, s/he lives.
If the starter is MIA and the reservist loses, AND the starter's side wins the war, s/he dies.

I suppose the second time there you meant to say 'AND the starter's side LOSES the war'. That or I'm so tired I just can't make sense of what you're saying. It is rather late, so if I'm just being pedantic, let me know.

I guess I don't have a problem with that, though I'd still prefer to give the original a chance to struggle for his life after the war. Just because the war is over does not mean we won't still have the will to fight. (Though I grant if you didn't have enough will to STAY IN the war, you probably do deserve to have your character under the axe.)

[LocoColt04]

You're right, I did. *edits*

I worked a twelve hour day today; you'll have to forgive me. ^^;



I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of the chance to survive, but it's difficult to pull off something like that smoothly given the awkward situation.

[ToroMor]

If I would be cut off the internet and exchanged by another warrior, I would not accept that my character is killed in the case that my spare loses. At least not if this rule is introduced after the war started.

[darkViVi]

If I would be cut off the internet and exchanged by another warrior, I would not accept that my character is killed in the case that my spare loses. At least not if this rule is introduced after the war started.

Indeed, in my honest opinion this is nothing but bullshit. If an exchange warrior looses, it is he who looses not the original warrior. Why you even bother and even thought about this in the first place is quite ridiculous to me.

Can we just get this over with, without changing the rules? To compare.. It would be like if FIA changed the rules about F1 in the middle of a race, guys. Seriously this is just...

[Zephyr]

Seriously this is just...

... something that we've only just started thinking about, and should have done so before-hand. As people seem to have differing opinions as to what happens to the original fighter, it is only natural that we would dicuss it. After all, a little bit of realism never hurt. We're only seeking to explain *why* that character is no longer involved.

As for LocoColt's suggestion, I can see it working. As for the 'giving them a chance to survive', the horrible part of me that stores memes is screaming at me to say that 'they have no chance to survive, make their time'. Sorry.

But it it were a short, "low-power" scuffle of say, 3-4 posts each, and if they are declared the victor, they managed to escape with their lives. Otherwise... And it doesn't necessarily have to be against the person they were originally fighting. It is conceivable that the winning group could give orders to potential recruits (as a way of proving themselves), or hire mercs, to hunt down those that fled.

But that's just my opinion. And it's possibly hard to work with.

[darkViVi]

... something that we've only just started thinking about, and should have done so before-hand. As people seem to have differing opinions as to what happens to the original fighter, it is only natural that we would dicuss it. After all, a little bit of realism never hurt. We're only seeking to explain *why* that character is no longer involved.

...it's.. retarded.

[LocoColt04]

We could also take this on a case-by-case basis, but there's nothing "fair" about that.

In any case, a voluntary forfeit should undoubtedly result in the character being slain if the reservist loses the fight. I don't think anyone can (or has the right to) argue /that/ much.

[darkViVi]

We could also take this on a case-by-case basis, but there's nothing "fair" about that.

In any case, a voluntary forfeit should undoubtedly result in the character being slain if the reservist loses the fight. I don't think anyone can (or has the right to) argue /that/ much.

That much is true, but how are we gonna prove it's voluntarily? I mean if fighter "a" backs out, he could just say, sorry dudes, had no internet or whatever.

To me the only logical solution to this is this: the characters who dies, dies. The ones who don't, don't.

I'm done here...