Who is the strongest FF main villain!!

[T.G. Oskar]

Which is my main problem with her. She had the smarts and interesting abilities, but when it comes right down to it, she lost in a fair fight. That leads me to believe either her plan was flawed, or her powers were limitted in some way.

It also seems a bit realistic. I wouldn't say Squall and co. won because of a flaw in her plan (though I will admit, Ellone was a rather risky tool to use) or limitations in her power; rather, it was a caveat that allowed them to fight in "equal terms". It was the fact that, while Ellone was useful for her, it was also useful for them; the fact that she sealed the group's power beforehand is just an example that she wasn't trying to play fair.

Now when you compare him side by side with villaisn who DID want to destroy the world, the fact tht he suceeded where they failed does say something, so I'd have to say Kuja is stronger than COD, Zeromus, Exdeath, and Kefka.

It might be a bit of a nitpick, but Kefka wasn't really thinking of destroying the world when he succeeded on his plan to gain the power of the Statues. Claim it was sheer luck or something else, but he did manage to bring the world to a state of near-death, and it was mostly later on that he decided just terrorizing the world wasn't enough. It's important because you see how his victory (the way it may have been) reshapes the world and drains the hopes of everybody. So I wouldn't say Kefka failed; still, that doesn't make him the strongest, admitting Ulti could finish him off easily on equal terms. Or Kuja going on Trance (but probably only on Trance; one of the things I do like about him is that his "final form" isn't monstrous or gigantic but rather realistic).

[the_savior21]

Sin is one we can't really comapre based on destruction achieved, because he wasn't trying to cause it. In fact, the one inside actively resists it at all times. If Sin had Drive and reason to kill, he'd probably be one of the strongest, but he doesn't. His intelligence is pretty much non existant. Sin runs almost entirely on instinct.

you are just proving my point sin wasnt even trying and he still destroyed all of spira more than once.

[Heartless Angel]

Motive and drive however are nescessary to acomplish anything, without these, Sin's power is meaningless. IF he had drive, yes he'd probably be the most dangerous, but since he doesn't, he isn't.

[Kurt Zisa]

^
I agree you can't count Sin's strength in this just because it 'could' destroy Spira. i'm sure all of the villains would be more powerful then the other's 'if' they could do something they didn't do.

[T.G. Oskar]

Motive and drive however are nescessary to acomplish anything, without these, Sin's power is meaningless. IF he had drive, yes he'd probably be the most dangerous, but since he doesn't, he isn't.

Well, he...has drive, it's just that it's best interpreted in the following way.

Sin is a Complete Monster with the mind of a Jerk with Heart of Gold and the soul of a Well Intentioned Extremist. So if you're speaking about Sin (body), it's mindless and thus has no drive; that doesn't mean it can't be strong, it's just that it needs to be guided. Sin (soul), aka Yu Yevon, has a drive that collapses that of Sin (mind), which would be Braska's Final Aeon. Both Sin (mind) and Sin (soul) have conflicting drives and reasons: Yu Yevon wishes to keep the dream alive, Jecht only hopes to withstand enough so as to allow his children (his real son Tidus and his pretty much adopted daughter Yuna) to stop it once and for all.

So yeah, depending on how you see Sin is how you can define it, but it's interesting to see a composite supermonster. Sin, though, either doesn't qualify as a final boss or you should consider the entirety of the battle since you fight Sin's carcass up until you fight Yu Yevon as a final boss battle. Sorta like, to use another example, one of the endings of SaGa Frontier. It's more Fridge Brilliance than anything else.

[the_savior21]

^
I agree you can't count Sin's strength in this just because it 'could' destroy Spira. i'm sure all of the villains would be more powerful then the other's 'if' they could do something they didn't do.

its not just that sin "could" destroy spira he DID 3 times until the temples of yevon and the teachings came into play and still sin continued to destroy he did to kilika and he all he did was fly over he didnt even attack just went near and thesher force of his presence destroyed the village itself

[Rydia Lover]

to be honest you cant really give any conclusive evidence that any villain is really stronger than the other. given that there are only two PROBABLE links connecting any of the final fantasy universes (II and IV, X and VII) it can be hypothesized that the physics and general science on each different universe could be completely different (which could explain how many normal people in some of these games can accomplish amazing feets such as jumping very high, or performing magic). while sephiroth is one of the most powerful beings in VII's universe, he could possibly be just an ordinary human in VIII's universe. so it wouldnt be fair to say that he could completely destroy squall with minimal effort without any real evidence.

the best example i can think of here is superman, where kryptons are seen as ordinary people on their planet, but have amazing super powers while on earth.

its also unfair to say that sephiroth is unbeatable because he destroyed a star, when no evidence other than visual shows that he ACTUALLY destroyed the solar system. it actually seems more probable that his supernova attack is simply an illusion, or just some way to make the player say WOW! it seems unlikely that the attack is real when he can do it more than once, and when the earth is still habitable after he destroys the star.

I think this is a great thread that can have great disscussions, but i dont really think that any of this can be conclusive.

having said that, i think kefka or maybe kuja are good choices, people say kefka wasnt smart and that his lack of intelligence killed him, but when you think about it, he knew what he was doing all along. in the end i believe it was his confidence that killed him, not his intelligence.

i also agree that while sin is very powerfull, he lacks the will do realy cause any significant damage due to his good nature. but imagine is seymour became the next sin, that would be devestating!

[Zidane77]

I would say Sephiroth.
Ultimecia and Kuja were pretty powerful though.

[the_savior21]

I agree that it can be hard to tell because of the different worlds and what i am going to call if i may the superman theory but for the sake of the thread lets just say that the worlds are paralell

sephiroth was not that powerful if you think about it cloud is sephiroths clone sephiroth and cloud are basically the same but if you recall in clouds memory where you control cloud and the A.I. controls sephiroth in the fight against that dragon or whatever sephiroth is much more powerful then cloud. sephiroth destroyed the city were cloud believed was his home and he destroyed a star.

Ultimecia compressed all of time. she pulled the past present and future into one she has everything that every sorceress had ever had because a sorceress' powers have to be passed on to an acceptible host. She created her own GF and her own powerful magic. not only that she never really fought at 100% definatly a good choice

Kefka was a genius he knew exactly what he was doing and his power continued to excell into destroying the world although i dont think that he is at the top spot he is still powerful

Nobody wants to agree that sin was at the top of the list because he had no drive well the thread is who is the STRONGEST FF main villain sin destoyed spira which is basically the world more then once if you remember wakka talked about sin destroying all of spira and then the spirans rebuilt it and then again sin destoyed it sin has raw power that all there is to it when in the final battle with sin where sin reaches overdrive mode....you dont think that that is power??

Kuja and Ultimecia are the only 2 that can compare with sin and i still believe in sin even though he doesnt have a drive but to think about sin with seymour at its core then there will be no contending with sin at that point that is why i think sin is the obvious choice

[Heartless Angel]

Sin is really more of a weapon than a character. And any weapon, no matter how potentially devasting, if not used properly is still weak. Sin has the highest POTENTIAL power, that I'd definitely agree on. But if you allow considering potential here, you'd have to allow it for anyone else to be fair.

For example, you'd have to allow consideration for what Ulti's power would be if nobody else was able to exist in her time compressed world, you'd have to consider Sephiroth if the planet had failed to stop him from absorbing the lifestream and becoming a God, you'd have to consider Zeromus with no crystals to weaken him, and so on. They all have much higher potential power than we've actually seen them use.

[the_savior21]

well i can agree with that but what about the first sin who destoryed spira continually

[norman]

I think that garland is the strongest villian in the game of final fantasy.

[Kurt Zisa]

Garland... what was his power again? All i know about him is that i like his picture in Dissidia

[Rydia Lover]

Garland... what was his power again? All i know about him is that i like his picture in Dissidia

he was a dark knight that found a way to travel through time in order to cheat death. hes not that great but when he became chaos he was very strong.

[Kurt Zisa]

The older generation of Final Fantasy (and their respective villains) intriges me. i want to play them on their original consols but i know thats probably not the cheapest opiton

Yeah, sorry, that was kinda off topic

[Xanatos]

First of all, there's no way we can determine who's stronger, we would actually need to pit them against each other, the only way to do that is Dissidia, not good enough though. While important, strength is the last thing I look in a villain, you can have a God like strength, but what for if you don't know how to use it. On the other hand intelligent villains proved to be more threatening, Kuja for instance, with few well chosen words and little bit of sorcery he threw an entire continent into chaos of war. If we're looking at brute strength than definitely Sephiroth even though I'm still not convinced, but if you want the entire package then Kuja and Ultimecia by all means.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Okay, in an attempt to persuade opinions...

I will start from FF13 down

Orphan- Well, he honestly wasn't much of a threat... at all, I mean most other FF characters could kill him in theory (On equal plains, because he had no extra strength from his planet(cocoon or whatever)

Vayne- The occuria are gods, Vayne kinda got power from one of them in the last fight. He is smart, but never was he an existence threat, so he can not compare to others, tho his intelligence was great

Sin- Well sure he has great strength, but he could never compare in overall power. He has GREAT gravity powers, as seen from all of his attacks. He may have been able to destroy spira, but would he be able to destroy existence from his power? His "overdrive", the one when he opens his mouth, basically ends everything. But if you remember vegnagun was stronger than him, and his final move was neither a existence threat

Kuja- WHile I can't say for sure do to my fourth disk breaking when I went to put it in (SCREW YOU RED BULL), I don't know the last disc... But he did blow up a planet, though again, I believe most others could have. Again, I do not know if what he was doing threatened existence.

Ultimecia- Everybody says "oh well, time is strong," but then you guys forgot she absorbed every other sorceresses power, meaning she undoubtly has other magic at her disposal, not just time, in theory. ALso, if she does have that power, than she is about half of the power of the Great Hyne, the creator god, meaning she is immediately the strongest in theory. Also don't forget, she is the only one who destroyed existence... she killed EVERYTHING but squall and co which was total PIS, as nobody should have survived, even by fate. Again, we all know she's a cunning suki(russian), as she was the main hand behind most of the game egh. This should immediatly prove that she is the most powerful in concept, design and theory. Which would be why they did not show her true strength.

Sephiroth- I did not complete FF7, just went to the materia keeper... then quit... too much hype for it... So I do not know much about his powers other than what was previously stated, but then again, if somebody were to remove the lifestream, I.E the planet, inwhich most other Villians had the potential too, his "immortality" would be lost. Again, I believe the only thing he has on the others is Strength and skill with his blade. Though if you want to be technical, in theory it is possible for somebody like ultimecia to surpass his strength using magics to enhance her speed, Strength and so on.

Kefka- Too bad he was stupid, and the real only thing that happened was luck... And maybe the fact that he was like celes when it came to magic. In theory he was a god of Magic. Meaning he should have tremendous power, but the past story of FF6 is nowhere...>.>

Ex-death- The void, well, basically places everything into stasis until it gets destroyed. What you see in the game is the interdimensional rift, not the void. THe void turns everything unto pure nihiliity, nothingness. Inwhich Ex-death had allot of control. I mean he did within a matter of seconds erase several towns... twice. They were no longer extant. He even stated the only thing that could defeat him was the void it'self which leaves a question, if he had eternal power over the void, how did he die by it? Was it the light warriars who weakened him?

Zemus- Don't really know, cause I played it awhile ago, but from what I remember, he honestly wasn't a threat to the posted villians so far

Cloud of darkness- Same goes with her, other than the fact she was the medium in which to turn all into darkness if light went of balance

Palamecia- Hmm, heaven and hell are great feats, stronger than lucifer. Which leaves another question, did he fight the planets god in order to aquir control, or did he just... take control?

Garland- He is a separete being than Chaos, he made a deal with Chaos to live forever by means of the 1000 year warp thingy, but other than that...nah, he doesnt compare.


Obviously I know more about Ultimecia, but this should prove that, in theory, she is the strongest villian in all history, beyiond video games... I mean really, there was no such thing as life, other than squall and co

[Heartless Angel]

Not all. You just tryed to strip power from those who compete with her, and undermine the acomplishments of other. And adding theoretical pwoers to her, that doesn't prove anything lol. If you're going to argue Sephiroth from abscence of lifetsream, I can jsust as easily argue against Ultimecia with abscence of Odine's invention (what she used to send her conciousness back in time) and other sorceresses to inherit pwoers from, in which case she's nothing more than an abnormally powerful mage. You can't alter the playing field to fit your position, you've either got to compare everyone with exactly what they've shown, everybdoy at max potential, or everybody with abilities limitted, you can't pick and choose to suit your position.

[Rydia Lover]

Not all. You just tryed to strip power from those who compete with her, and undermine the acomplishments of other. And adding theoretical pwoers to her, that doesn't prove anything lol. If you're going to argue Sephiroth from abscence of lifetsream, I can jsust as easily argue against Ultimecia with abscence of Odine's invention (what she used to send her conciousness back in time) and other sorceresses to inherit pwoers from, in which case she's nothing more than an abnormally powerful mage. You can't alter the playing field to fit your position, you've either got to compare everyone with exactly what they've shown, everybdoy at max potential, or everybody with abilities limitted, you can't pick and choose to suit your position.

which is why its important that should probably beat every game and have the info before you start an argument here, i agree with you.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Whoah, I eat all but 2 FF main series, so I wouldn't comment so recklessly Rydia lover.

Theory, in what I mean, is facts with no written proof. I didn't give ultimecia a weakness, so I will, but there are still reasons why she would be more than an abnormally powerful mage...

If she never had time junction Ellone, she wouldn't be able to send her consciousness back. If she hadn't had that, she would not have had any time kompression and powers from past sorceresses. But she also still had the magical ability to even achieve time kompression and keep her sanity. I have even noted that I know more about ultimecia than sephiroth, being I never beat it so I'm intrigued about Sephy.

Lets take away everybodies advantages...

Garland- A normal soldier if he had never made a deal with CHaos... A weak antagonist in theory. Again, when I say Theory, I mean in thought, nothing to argue against it but no solid proof.

Palemecia- If he would not have achieved heavan and hell dominance... He would still be strong, having the ability to summon powerful twisters to destroy cities with ease. He even let himself die in order to take over hell, so in design, he is a very powerful mage

Cloud of Darkness- Can't really weaken her any more. She really... Idk, somebody help me with this, haven't played FF3 since 2004-5 I think.

Zemus- Hmm, I can't really say again being I havn't played it since 1999, but from what I remember, he is a strong mage comparable to that old guy, so I guess he is powerful by default.

Ex-death- Take away the void and he STILL is a very powerful warlock. I believe he is made from the ehh, something from the powerful monsters of the void. He does use powerful magic on your first encounter so I guess he is powerful by design, tho he wouldn't exist if the void didn't

Kefka- He would be comparable to Celes if he hadn't cheated into being a god. Being a magicite soldier. He would be powerful, but no where compared to people like Zemus or Palemecia

Sephiroth- Take away the lifestream and he still would be powerful. He has swordsmen mastery and great knowledge. From what I think, he would still need Materia but again, all of his stats are high, being level 35 or w/e when that long ass memory cutscene crap.
I meant his Jenova ties, but ya know lol

Ultimecia- *cries* Already said it... *twitches*

Kuja- Again, it talks about most of his abilities and powers in disc four so I can't really say, I need help with this one

Sin- What can I really take away? Yu Yevon? Well if I did that, Sin would just be a Hyper strong random whale bird with amazing gravity powers, being the most powerful, I mean one of the most powerful, none enhanced villians, persay. But then he would be more of a giant threat than a villian

Vayne- Well, take away the magicite and the Venat part and he is, probably a little higher than other judges, but take into effect that the hardest boss of the game is the 5 lv 100 judges...>.>

Orphan- I don't have to take anything away, he sucks and just wants to die, poor guy, must of had a bad bad life.

[Heartless Angel]

Eh, I'd imagine any of the other sorceresses would be able to survive in that spell too if they were already spreading their conciousness through time. I mean you'd have to fail pretty hard to not survive your own power. She's still be strogner than most, but nothing outrageously dangerous.

Zeromus is actually naturally very powerful. Golbez and old dude double meteored him and didn't even phase him. His disadvantage was the crystal, so taking away elements actually makes him MORE powerful, since he only lost in a PDS.

Don't think you really can take Exdeath's pwoer away without removing Exdeath all together, so he really isn't at a disadvantage in any scenario.

Kekfa was also naturally very powerful (post magicite anyways, but he wouldn't even be the villain if not for that) Probably on par with Ulti without time kompression.

Materia's just a standard weapon in VII, so no ned to remove that. Taking away Jenova and the lifestream, he's still outragously powerful. Probably on par with Kefka and Ulti. Just because he was versed in magic as well as unrivaled melee skill.

Kuja, now there's really ntohing you can take away here. Trance was his own power. Only thing you can really take away is necron, who failed anyways. Kuja I'd say is probbly on par with Zemus (without being weakened by light crystal)

Sin is already at his disadvantage with his lakc of will to destroy, so I'd say he's somewhere between Seph/Kefka/Ulti and Kuja/Zeromus

Vayne, meh.

Orphan, meh.

In natural state only, I'd probably say Kuja is the strongest, since he didn't need an external ower source to do what he did.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Well, while I agree most of it, Kefka is literally a faild celes, and in all means, celes isn't the strongest character. Yes, I do believe Sephy and Ulti could be on par with each other, tho what I meant was she had the magical ability to use Time kompression.
Meaning, all she needed was a start. a Spark, an ignition... let me stop the fanboyism lol

Yes, Zemus is really powerful, infact, Cloud of darkness also could not die if it weren't for the dark warriors, so her and Zemus may as well be the strongest.

Oh, another thing comes to mind. Ultimecia stated that her last form was her true form, meaning she has an expansive amount of power compared to the other mages of the series.

Kuja, the only thing you would or can take away is... ahh... well... yeh, just that lol
Take away his trance I would say... but bleh, meaning without their switch, in most cases all antagonists do, Kuja would be strongest followed by in no particular order, Ulti/Sephy/Pale

Oh wait, nevermind, CoD and Zemus would be strongest, now lets give them 100% oportunities to establish the top 5, not strongest, just top 5 strongest

I'm confused...>.>

[Xanatos]

@o0Odin0o - I'm not sure how you tend to prove who's stronger, but one thing I'm sure of, you really don't know much about villains, do you? No offense, but if you're going to debate, at least learn a thing or two before posting complete nonsense. As far as my concern, you lost my credibility as soon as you underestimated Vayne.


@Heartless Angel - I'm curious, how strong Sephiroth really is. You know great deal about Sephiroth, probably more than I do, one thing bugs me though, and maybe you can help. On various sites, forums, even during debates, I keep hearing how strong Sephiroth is, things is, no one knows his exact potential. Thus some claim he's capable of performing an attack such as Super Nova, some go far as comparing him to Vegeta from DBZ (those who check Dorkly know what I mean), and from what I read in this thread even you claim that he could have destroyed the planet if he wanted to. If he's indeed capable of something like that, don't you think he could damage the planet on his own, without the aid of meteor. It certainly would save him a lot of time and pain in the ass. And that's what really bugs me, why summon a meteor, why lose...unless he didn't have such power, didn't have control over it, or just didn't give a damn, which raises another question, why he even tried? Your input will be much appreciated.

[Rydia Lover]

Whoah, I eat all but 2 FF main series, so I wouldn't comment so recklessly Rydia lover.

Theory, in what I mean, is facts with no written proof. I didn't give ultimecia a weakness, so I will, but there are still reasons why she would be more than an abnormally powerful mage...

If she never had time junction Ellone, she wouldn't be able to send her consciousness back. If she hadn't had that, she would not have had any time kompression and powers from past sorceresses. But she also still had the magical ability to even achieve time kompression and keep her sanity. I have even noted that I know more about ultimecia than sephiroth, being I never beat it so I'm intrigued about Sephy.

Lets take away everybodies advantages...

Garland- A normal soldier if he had never made a deal with CHaos... A weak antagonist in theory. Again, when I say Theory, I mean in thought, nothing to argue against it but no solid proof.

and kefka isnt really stupid, hes arrogant. big difference

Palemecia- If he would not have achieved heavan and hell dominance... He would still be strong, having the ability to summon powerful twisters to destroy cities with ease. He even let himself die in order to take over hell, so in design, he is a very powerful mage

Cloud of Darkness- Can't really weaken her any more. She really... Idk, somebody help me with this, haven't played FF3 since 2004-5 I think.

Zemus- Hmm, I can't really say again being I havn't played it since 1999, but from what I remember, he is a strong mage comparable to that old guy, so I guess he is powerful by default.

Ex-death- Take away the void and he STILL is a very powerful warlock. I believe he is made from the ehh, something from the powerful monsters of the void. He does use powerful magic on your first encounter so I guess he is powerful by design, tho he wouldn't exist if the void didn't

Kefka- He would be comparable to Celes if he hadn't cheated into being a god. Being a magicite soldier. He would be powerful, but no where compared to people like Zemus or Palemecia

Sephiroth- Take away the lifestream and he still would be powerful. He has swordsmen mastery and great knowledge. From what I think, he would still need Materia but again, all of his stats are high, being level 35 or w/e when that long ass memory cutscene crap.
I meant his Jenova ties, but ya know lol

Ultimecia- *cries* Already said it... *twitches*

Kuja- Again, it talks about most of his abilities and powers in disc four so I can't really say, I need help with this one

Sin- What can I really take away? Yu Yevon? Well if I did that, Sin would just be a Hyper strong random whale bird with amazing gravity powers, being the most powerful, I mean one of the most powerful, none enhanced villians, persay. But then he would be more of a giant threat than a villian

Vayne- Well, take away the magicite and the Venat part and he is, probably a little higher than other judges, but take into effect that the hardest boss of the game is the 5 lv 100 judges...>.>

Orphan- I don't have to take anything away, he sucks and just wants to die, poor guy, must of had a bad bad life.

not to be be mean, or discerning. but there are way too many IFs in this post.

i think it would be a more fair comparison, to test these guys against eachother in their prime.

[Angel of Iniquity]

@o0Odin0o - I'm not sure how you tend to prove who's stronger, but one thing I'm sure of, you really don't know much about villains, do you? No offense, but if you're going to debate, at least learn a thing or two before posting complete nonsense. As far as my concern, you lost my credibility as soon as you underestimated Vayne.

First of, don't act like a little impertinent howl you slime.

Villains go by Intellect, then power. I know more about video games in general than you may ever know, Don't reply to this, and another thing, if I upset you, screw you.

Show me why Vayne is so powerful? I never said best, I said powerful.
Vayne shows little power comparative to others. Was he a planetary threat? Hardly, was he a existence threat, not at all. Vayne can not even compare to the intellect several other villains so he isn't in the top, at all, so you fail and I would appreciate if you would NOT act aggressively.

Anyways...

I do not mean to be rude or ignorant in any posts, I just reply to what I see.
What's an Ifs anyways lol

[Heartless Angel]

@o0Odin0o - I'm not sure how you tend to prove who's stronger, but one thing I'm sure of, you really don't know much about villains, do you? No offense, but if you're going to debate, at least learn a thing or two before posting complete nonsense. As far as my concern, you lost my credibility as soon as you underestimated Vayne.


@Heartless Angel - I'm curious, how strong Sephiroth really is. You know great deal about Sephiroth, probably more than I do, one thing bugs me though, and maybe you can help. On various sites, forums, even during debates, I keep hearing how strong Sephiroth is, things is, no one knows his exact potential. Thus some claim he's capable of performing an attack such as Super Nova, some go far as comparing him to Vegeta from DBZ (those who check Dorkly know what I mean), and from what I read in this thread even you claim that he could have destroyed the planet if he wanted to. If he's indeed capable of something like that, don't you think he could damage the planet on his own, without the aid of meteor. It certainly would save him a lot of time and pain in the ass. And that's what really bugs me, why summon a meteor, why lose...unless he didn't have such power, didn't have control over it, or just didn't give a damn, which raises another question, why he even tried? Your input will be much appreciated.

Unfortnately his potential is pretty much unknown. Though it seems very obvious it's more than what he showed in the last battles, because we know he never showed his max potential, we have no idea what exactly it is. I wouln't say he's on par with Vegeta, considering his father, weaker than Freiza could obliterate three planets with a wave of his hand... and since then Vegata's power level has increased by around 9 trillion.

Meteor was his means to destroying the planet, much as Ultima was Kuja's. Magic just has to come from an outside source in world of VII, but you've still got to have the power to use it. Ultima materia won't do you much good if you only have 20 MP, know what I mean? And it's damage is based on the user's magic ability. Sephiroth could have destroyed the Planet with Meteor, but that would've been coutner productive to his plans, so obviously he wouldn't put everything he had into the spell. Unlike Kuja, he didn't have the convieniently placed neighbor planet to go to after blowing up his lol. He should've won, with ease. Before he even transformed, in the northern crater, he had te entire party suspended in the air, talking about how they felt like they were being torn apart. Even if he couldn't tear them apart with that spell, he could've just made with the stabby stabby while they were imobilized. He also had a weapon/meatshield that apparenty never died. That or it was still usable after death... not sure actually. Either way, he never needed to put his real body in danger to acomplish anything. So, it was either bad planning, underestimating opposition (from the planet moreso than the party), or Square not having a better excuse to make him lose lol. But then, at times it really did seem like he just didn't give a shit. For example, not killing Cloud and Tifa and everyone else at the mako reactor in nibelheim. The guy wiped out 10000 wutai solders alone. One shinra infanty and a 14 year old girl with basic martial arts training wouldn't have lasted 3 seconds if he wanted them dead. Only thing I can see as a reason why that may have been (other than Seph not caring) would be that he was weakened from his fight with Zack. And when he killed Aerith. At that point in the game, Cloud and co. wouldn't have even given him a struggle, but instead of just wiping them all out, he left Jenova, who was beaten with little effort. But then it's also possible that he just didn't consider them a threat, he had a major superiority complex, which could've interfered with his ability to plan out everything. So I certainly can't prove it wasn't just bad planning that lead to his defeat, but as a 1st class Soldier, one can reasonably assume he was a decent tactician. So either his discovery blew his ego so out of proportion that he was blinded by it, or he just didn't give a damn. After VII, it definitely seems like he didn't give a damn. But at that point, he really had no reason to, his will was intact in the neverending lifestream, so he had absolutely nothing to lose there. There's plenty that even I don't know about him, but I suppose that's part of why I like him.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I like how you know so much about Sephy, it helps me understand more so about him.
I also liked how you used the Mp analogy, inwhich what I was trying to say about TK, but FF8 doesn't use Mp so... that's the reason why I didn't say anything about it lol

Okay then, I know he has power, that' would be bad for me not to notice that, but how about all his displays of power? Like, what in game, shows his abilities? Does the game give a reason why he has those powers? And I also agree that it is PIS that he "died," I guess Square literally had no way of finding a weakness, they did it with FF3 dark warriors, FF4, white crystal, and FF5 dawn warriors.

[Xanatos]

First of, don't act like a little impertinent howl you slime.

Villains go by Intellect, then power. I know more about video games in general than you may ever know, Don't reply to this, and another thing, if I upset you, screw you.

Show me why Vayne is so powerful? I never said best, I said powerful.
Vayne shows little power comparative to others. Was he a planetary threat? Hardly, was he a existence threat, not at all. Vayne can not even compare to the intellect several other villains so he isn't in the top, at all, so you fail and I would appreciate if you would NOT act aggressively.

Anyways...

I do not mean to be rude or ignorant in any posts, I just reply to what I see.
What's an Ifs anyways lol

I'm sure you do...

Now, it seems to me that you don't know diference betwen strenght and power, you don't have to be strong to be powerfull. Power comes in many forms, Vayne was head of Arcadian empire, he had an entire army under his command, on his comand many countries have fallen, now that's what I call power.

True, Vayne was far from strong, did that prevent him from achiving his goals, I don't think so. As for his intelect, do not forget that he managed to trick the immortal Ocurians, nation of Ivalice as well, he may be defeated, but unlike many villains he reached his goal. Other villains may had strenght, some had intelect, some both, though acording to you Vayne had none, and yet he succeeded despite those disadvantages, so much for not being in same leauge as other villains.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I'm sure you do...

Now, it seems to me that you don't know diference betwen strenght and power, you don't have to be strong to be powerfull. Power comes in many forms, Vayne was head of Arcadian empire, he had an entire army under his command, on his comand many countries have fallen, now that's what I call power.

True, Vayne was far from strong, did that prevent him from achiving his goals, I don't think so. As for his intelect, do not forget that he managed to trick the immortal Ocurians, nation of Ivalice as well, he may be defeated, but unlike many villains he reached his goal. Other villains may had strenght, some had intelect, some both, though acording to you Vayne had none, and yet he succeeded despite those disadvantages, so much for not being in same leauge as other villains.

I just posted he was smart, and I was looking for a discussion on the most POWERFUL villain, meaning powwweeeeerrrr. By your analysis, Kefka is in the same tier by ruling the world, and had a vast amount of power comparative to Vayne. What I meant is if they were to meet, who would come out as the decisive ruler.
I know it is impossible to choose a clear winner which is why I just stated the top 5 powerful, which could be stated as the existence busting threats, ones who had the ability to end or remove all existence. ANd, his goal wasn't as high as somebody like Sephy or Ulti, I mean really, Sephy wanted something like transferring the life-stream or so(sorry if I'm wrong) and ultimecia wanted to end existence to become a goddess. I'm pretty sure, ulti, for her goal, came closest to achieving a goal that high, and in reality, she did achieve it. It's PIS squall killed her.

Top 5.

Ulti
Ex
Kuja
Sephy- Sorry heartless lol
and can't say the last, maybe Kefka

Oh and, Vayne, place him against sin and Sins force alone would tear him to shreds.

[Xanatos]

I just posted he was smart, and I was looking for a discussion on the most POWERFUL villain, meaning powwweeeeerrrr. By your analysis, Kefka is in the same tier by ruling the world, and had a vast amount of power comparative to Vayne. What I meant is if they were to meet, who would come out as the decisive ruler.
I know it is impossible to choose a clear winner which is why I just stated the top 5 powerful, which could be stated as the existence busting threats, ones who had the ability to end or remove all existence. ANd, his goal wasn't as high as somebody like Sephy or Ulti, I mean really, Sephy wanted something like transferring the life-stream or so(sorry if I'm wrong) and ultimecia wanted to end existence to become a goddess. I'm pretty sure, ulti, for her goal, came closest to achieving a goal that high, and in reality, she did achieve it. It's PIS squall killed her.

Oh and, Vayne, place him against sin and Sins force alone would tear him to shreds.

You still don't know difference between power and strength, how cute. Still, no harm in reminding you again, I have time on my hands. Power doesn't equal strength, to demonstrate I'll use an example. A general doesn't have to be strong, but if he commands a powerful army he can do quite a damage, do you see where I'm going with this...

As for Vayne's goal, you're right, his goal was nothing like Ultis, he had a noble goal, though it may not seem that way at first. Those who played the game know that Vayne tended to free nation of Ivalice from clutches of immortal Ocurians, for nation of Ivalice to finally decide their own fate, his methods may be cruel, but necessary it seems. So you see, their goals can't be compared, Ultis victory lasted til her defeat, which wasn't the case with Vayne.

Sin is far from intelligent creature, he attacks randomly, and he proved to be vulnerable to Al Bhed technology, what do you think Vayne's fleet would do to him, Bahamut, Leviathan and such...