Dissected, meaty answer. Me gusta.
The thing about railroading, as a GM, is to never make it obvious. If the party is willing to be railroaded, then use it to work with the adventure. However, at one moment, give them options. When the whole adventure is rail-roaded, and the players are unhappy by it, problems occur. There's conflict between the players and the GM, and the story ruins because the players insist on ruining the GM's plans while the GM uses every book at his disposal to return the players, by force, to the "right track".Originally Posted by EmperorLeo
On a game, when you feel the entire game does this, the same problem will occur: without the illusion of side-quests and the idea that you're doing something else, eventually you have two options. Either follow the track, or return the game. The other FF games have their sidequests to distract you from the main adventure, but they also have moments in which you might get further into a specific point of the adventure; FF7 had that impression once you get the Tiny Bronco, FF8 with Balamb Garden, and so on. FF10 has the same problem in that regard, because you're almost literally going on a rail.
First: classical buff? That's a new one. Anyone in this forum that knows me has it almost as a fact that I'm a sword buff, not a classical music buff. The whole reason I knew the Battle on the Bridge/Stravinsky comparison is because one of my D&D players is a graduate in Classical Composition, so it's expected for him to know that and point that out.Hamauzu did fine work with the music in my opinion because the music never stuck out to me as improper. You can't point your finger to a place in the game and say, "NOPE! This music doesn't fit." Blinded by Light is beautiful, and Sabers Edge (boss music) has that dissonant piano that creates so much tense that it REALLY pumps me up. It's the first normal boss music that pumped me up since FFVII, and the boss music for Barthandelus is just phenomenal (I can't recall the name of the track itself). Hamauzu also worked with Nobuo on FFX I believe. It was the last time they worked together before he left to do solo work with The Black Mages and to do more freelance work.
Given that point, doesn't that make Hamauzu's work a bit more impressive? I'm not a classical buff to your level, so I won't go into the details like you have here because it's not my field. I know enough to get by, but I know when I don't have enough knowledge to contribute to a conversation in a positive way.
Second: I believe the question is better rephrased as "does the music make the scene, or does the scene make the music"? If the music makes the scene, then that shows a lot of Hamauzu's work but not enough of the game's shine: essentially, the game has to conform to the music. If the scene makes the music, then that doesn't make Hamauzu's work fantastic, it makes the scene fantastic. Try seeing a scene without music and see if it fits, then listen to the song, days later, and attempt to associate the feelings behind it and see if it fits the story. Sometimes, there may be certain cues to the story that fit the music (and viceversa), but the music turns great on its own when you listen to it and don't have to depend on the scene to generate that emotion.
Which leads me to "Blinded by Light". Perhaps it's me, but I'm used to intense battle themes with a lot of increasing tones, almost where it feels that the song rarely goes down. Battle themes for skirmishes have to be short but intensive; large-scale battle themes should essentially fade into the battleground and let the sounds of war take the scene, and boss battles should really grant the impression that the enemy you face is not normal. From what I can see in FF XIII, all battles are meant to hold that scale of "extremely difficult monsters, all unique in their own way", because of the impression of huge battlefields and large enemies. However, at the very least, they're mostly skirmishes, not large-scale battles. "Blinded by Light" was thought with the idea of enhancing that depth in battle, but would have fit better a large-scale battle. Take, for example, "Blinded by Light" and place it, say, at the very first scenes of "Lost Odyssey" (where Kaim is fighting a whole army by himself). Does the music fit better there than on a FF XIII combat scene, knowing that he's facing a lot of mooks but that you see thousands and thousands of them? "The Gun-Barrel of Battle" is Lost Odyssey's main battle theme, is used on that scene, and in every single battle scene aside from boss battles (and the Backyard, which has a funky yet awesome song). That song also has a sense of grandeur and large-scale, but tidbits where it fits skirmishes; the tempo makes the difference. The intensity section of "Blinded by Light" feels slower than the intensity section of "The Gun-Barrel of Battle", though on the former, you have the idea of a sort of flow.
Compare then to an ear-worm like the battle theme of Final Fantasy VIII or IX, or even "Normal Battle" of FFX. Compare the large-scale battles with Sakimoto's (and Iwata's) "Battle on the Bridge" or "Tension" or "Backfire". Compare how Sakimoto then does skirmish battle themes in Grand Knights History (damn you, Vanillaware!!!), such as "Fight On!" and "Nose-Bleed Charge!" (with their climaxes). Then go into really intense battle themes, such as Kenji Ito's battle theme for Romancing SaGa and how the arrangement from Tsuyoshi Sekito (from Black Mages fame) really makes every single battle feel epic; on the other hand, nearly every boss battle theme feels unique and awesome: "Haunted Melody" is eerie and placed within cavern battles, "A Piece of Courage" sounds awesome and inspiring when you're facing bosses in knightly territory, and then there's the themes for Death, Schirach, Saruin and his minions (Saruin has a two-parter which starts slow but then ends into pure awesomeness). Or, perhaps themes such as Motoi Sakuraba's work in Valkyrie Profile, the theme of Saturos and Menardi from Golden Sun (note that it had to be done on native GBA hardware), or what I'd dare say is his (and Gabriel Celeste's) leitmotif, "Incarnation of the Devil". That's the kind of intensity I'm used to, so I find Hamauzu's work dull because the intensity doesn't reach these grounds.
Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness 3 made it better. That game is an indie game, even though their developers (Zeboyd Games) have notoriety by doing awesome 8-bit graphic games (BTW, this is their first foray into 16-bit graphic games). I finished their first game at the hardest difficulty. I sweared at how seemingly unfair it was to face essentially what was hand-picked groups of monsters, which essentially limited your XP growth. Sure, there was a grinding option (the Colosseum), but it was slow to develop and the monsters there were even harder to beat than what you faced on the next quest you had to follow. It's linear as heck (I'd say just as much, if not more linear, than FF XIII). And it uses a character development system that's essentially a rip-off of FFV.That's fine by me as that's your opinion. I still believe by giving a story driven level cap, healing after every battle, removing random encounters, and forcing people to fight bosses/strong enemies with an actual strategy is something the series never saw before was a refreshing change. They couldn't just mill out another game without trying new things. Some of the things I feel worked well, while others failed miserably. I knew my opinion wasn't going to be a popular one, but I stand by it regardless.
That game has three times more strategic choices than FF XIII, and I say this with a straight face. You still had your specialists, and options were far more limited (besides your main class, you have access up to two more), and you can't shift them as you do in FF XIII. The game STILL has more strategic depth than FF XIII, if only because the difficulty essentially MADE you think out of strategy. Compare, also, the Insane Difficulty patch for Final Fantasy Tactics; the game has incredible depth in customization, but after grinding a bit the game turned out to be a joke. Then you get scaling enemies, enemies that have really specific tactics, better weapons, and better numbers, and you start figuring that grinding actually makes them more difficult, so it forces you to think, and think a lot, before making one step. Both games essentially forced the strategic choice by raising numbers, the cheapest trick in the book (literally, because it requires little tech knowledge in comparison to changing script altogether). FF XIII, on the other hand, has the same inflated numbers, but between the Auto-Battle option and the "Chain/Stagger for maximum damage" option, you get only the illusion of strategy. Even with specialists, the fact that you can change jobs literally on the fly (as with FF X-2) makes your strategy depend on mostly a mild amount of reflexes and the six slots of Paradigm Shifts. Then depend on essentially the same strategy: deal lots of damage, Stagger the enemy, Chain a lot for damage multipliers. Basically inflate damage to beat the inflated numbers, something that takes you back to square one.
Hopefully this'll be satisfying up until the next...say, two or three weeks. I dunno. Surprise me with your answers, everyone (not just EmperorLeo).
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The Final Boss Theorem:
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Nomu-baka, this is FAR from over...:
I think 9 is the most underrated. I see people talk bad about 9 when in reality its one of the best in the series. It brought things back to traditional final fantasy and relied less on an industrialized world like 7 did. I know many of the 7 fans didn't like 9 but many of the people who were playing final fantasy before 7 loved that they brought things back.
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I also feel like FF2,3 and 5 are the most underrated games. FF2 went far and beyond and introduced a totally new leveling system that other games started using afterwards, had a good, dark war story. FF3 offered another concept: the job system and had all the right elements of a good FF game. FF5 was just overshadowed by way too overhyped FF4 and 6, when it's job system, music and story were top notch. It wasn't as side quest oriented as FF6, but was still very enjoyable. FF6 has really spoiled alot of people with it's WoR concept.
I'm going to say FFXII. Most people hated it, and I'm not sure why. The story wasn't at all terrible, although it had a few quiet moments. There was also so much to explore and look into. I think it's the first Final Fantasy game I played and tried to find everything in other than FFVII. Also, I LOVED the new battle system. I liked being able to pick and choose my battles, to see what I was capable of taking down, using gambits to control every moment of battle (some battles, I had but to sit back and watch as it unfolded with minimal controller input) and have other NPCs join in my battles. A lot of fun.
Also, the ending made me cry. It had the best ending cutscene by far, in my opinion.
"I used to be active here like you, then I took an arrow in the knee."
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Suddenly... clutter.:
Warning free for over eight years. Feels good.
What was it about the ending made you cry? Was it the good turn of events after an intense conflict or a tragic turn? Seems like the story wasn't too bad then.
You have to understand, huge amount of fans were kinda expecting another cheesy teen love story, one dimensional-power hungry villain who threatens to destroy the world, you know, the usual stuff... luckily, we got just the opposite.
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I'm glad to hear these things. I was thinking FF12 was something like a remade classy FF1 with a crappy storyline.
I don't need a cheesy love story in a game to make me like it. Square Enix did good with FFXII and it's subtle hints between Ashe and Basch. Then there was Balthier and Fran's relationship, but I've never really decided if there was anything more to it than two treasure hunting buddies. I'm glad they didn't do anything so full on as FFVII and FFVIII.
Btw, I cried when I thought Balthier and Fran sacrificed themselves. Didn't expect it.
"I used to be active here like you, then I took an arrow in the knee."
>>>------------->
Suddenly... clutter.:
Warning free for over eight years. Feels good.
Did FF9 and 10 have flashy love stories as well?
Of course. Zidane and Garnet were obviously in love. And in 10, Tidus and Yuna were in love - also pretty obvious.Did FF9 and 10 have flashy love stories as well?
As for 12, I wouldn't even say anyone was in love there. I would've said the relation of Basch and Ashe was that of knight and princess, nothing more. Also, Balthier and Fran weren't in love, they were just companions. There was no obvious love story in the game. Almost all of the other FFs had one, though.
9x-7i > 3(3x-7u)
I think that's the fun thing- it's left open to interpretation, however you may see it (or want to). My thoughts, anyways. Who is to say?
As for my opinion on the matter I'll agree with most- V, IX and XII. V was more for fun. I think that most people didn't care since it was far more goofy then the more serious and heart tugging IV. But Galuf and his mustache! How many Black Mages have their awesome beard show? How many?!
IX was fantastic and always wins for me for best story in the FF series, next to Tactics. Fun to level, find items .... characters were good, but I agree that the art style probably threw most people off. XII was good because it was indeed a war story as someone said- no Yuna and Tidus pool scene (which I loved). Who am I kidding, I love all the Final Fantasy games.
VIII will be for me though, I think. I want to say X-2 since that's my all time favorite... but VIII was my first and I'll always enjoy it. I loved all the sidequests, the ability to form a good party through magic junction alone... enemies leveling with you. I dislike how everyone thinks Squall and Cloud are the same, too, when they aren't. Squall is a jerk, not in a constant depressive state like Cloud. He warms up more to others yet stays stoic and a sceptic. I mean, he was an orphan picked to be a mercenary, taught to do nothing but think on his mission. No feelings involved. Questionable, yes, but the game addresses this. The love story was important, too. I just loved it all... even if it could be frustrating at times. Cloud had no excuses, he had Tifa and his mom ... :I
I could go on but I think that'll suffice
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Not many people take heed into the awesomeness that came from FFIV I loved it, yes they made a remake but thats not enough for me. :3
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FFIX is the best FF that isn't talked about enough, but I wouldn't classify it as underrated. Almost everyone has a high opinion FFIX.
I'd probably say FFIII is the most underrated.
I want to say that VIII was underrated. Not because of the actual game but because it was hard to come after VII. Anything would have to be amazing to keep up with the hype that VII had. But I believe that the elements of game play especially the junction system set this game apart. My favorite part was how multiple story lines going on at once with Laguna's, squalls and ellone's. It just doesn't get any better in my opinion.
Oh so many.
FF V is so underated despite it having a really heavy and complexed battle system and levelling up system and nice characters. The GBA port is even better in a improved translation and nice sense of humour added in.
FF VIII seems to be getting ambushed by so much hate recently and I can't understand why. The Junction system is complexed but once you understand it the game is putty in your hands. Plus it has nice characters and a amazing video game and Final Fantasy soundtrack and Eyes on Me is a nice vocal song.
FF IX amazing storyline, characters and soundtrack.
FF XIII-2 It was a nice Final Fantasy and a improvement on what Square Enix has been doing so far and then that ending... minus that dreadful ending, the game is actually quite good. Just... that ending...
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