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Thread: How will Final Fantasy survive?

  1. #1
    Boxer of the Galaxy How will Final Fantasy survive? Rowan's Avatar
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    How will Final Fantasy survive?

    How Final Fantasy Plans to Survive - IGN

    Very interesting article, even more interesting comments. Have a read and discuss it in this thread.

    I'll start by saying that the franchise itself is indeed in a lot of trouble. Its trying to appeal to casual gamers and increase the audience it appeals too. By doing this, they have "removed certain elements" from the final fantasy titles that may not appeal to the larger audience, in doing so, have created a rift between the series and the fans who made the game what it is today. By focusing time and energy into creating a game that tries to appeal to everyone, we get something called the FFXIII trilogy. Probably the biggest dissapointment to come from squareenix to date. In terms of success, the game did poorly in sales in comparison to final fantasy 7, 8 and only marginally better than 9. The idea they could rehash the graphics/characters/scenario from the previous game leads me to believe that it was cheaper than constructing a new FF from scratch in order to make more of a profit off of the FF13 idea. An Idea that was to create something different, but remove all elements of everything that made final fantasy great to us, the players. Needless to say, RPG's are not for casual gamers. Trying to make an RPG for a casual gamer is on par with trying to equip tetris with a dramatic storyline. Its absurd. I was excited about FF15, but after reading what the directors from ff13 had to say, I'm not confident that square will ever be the same. And yes, it bothers me. It bothers me to know that there are a bunch of plebs out there who are giving them the thumbs up for this shit.

    And I dont want to hear that turn based combat is "dead" or "outdated" , because Pokemon still uses the same system and they always manage to max out their sales stats.

  2. #2
    Bananarama How will Final Fantasy survive? Pete's Avatar
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    I think that there are too many problems to address to really elaborate with the time I have, but I'll do my best, from the standpoint of a slightly more than casual gamer, who pretty much only plays the bigger titles nowadays.

    I think that for starters, FF is trying to go too mainstream with the MMORPGs. I'm personally not a fan of them, because I feel that the cost of the monthly subscription isn't worth it for how often I play. I have a job and a girlfriend, and social obligations, so it's really hard for me to plunk down serious gaming time daily. If I'm playing a game, it'll be for maybe an hour or two before I knock out, and if not, I'm prob putting something on Netflix to pass out. Right there, FFXI and FFXIV are out the window. Will the franchise lose sleep over my couple of hundred dollars between the cost of the game plus the monthly fees? Probably not, but there are probably thousands more who are in my boat. Granted there are equally thousands more who ARE playing them, so they are still making money.

    My biggest problem with the past few releases, since FFXI, is that the whole fantasy aspect is kind of removed from the game, at least in terms of having lots of different creature/ characters. Most everyone has been human, and that's cool, but I loved the diversity of the older games. Granted most of the main party has been human throughout the series, but I do enjoy the whole diversity aspect.

    I also don't like how the games aren't as open world as they used to be. I don't want to treat the world map as a series of separate mini maps, from this plains range to this mountain. I want to be able to walk or fly across the world map, landing where I please, going where I want when it becomes accessible to me, If that means bringing pack airships for my own personal use, then so be it. I loved the Highwind and Ragnarok in VII and VIII. It's possible to make a game with a sandbox world map without turning it into a sandbox game. I understand the concept of it, but at this day and age, the world that programmers can make should not be so limited. Look at Skyrim or Oblivion. They're full of open world areas with plenty of things to do and find, and they're also full of linear areas where you're kind of forced to just stay the course. They were all successful while being unique.

    As for random battles, I'm ambivalent. I like the traditional random battles of the older FF games, but I can also appreciate the reality of seeing enemies in front of you and having the option to avoid them or take them on.

    My biggest gripe of late though has been the leveling systems. I really Hate, with a capital H, the idea that all characters can learn everyone elses skills, save for a personalized tech or weapon. In FFX, XII and even XIII, I hated that by the end of the game, through the traditional grinding that I'm so used to, all of my characters maxed out their growth trees and were able to start working on the other party members, or learning skills that just didn't seem suited for them. I guess I really want a stricter caste system, akin to FFIX. Your tank shouldn't be able to learn magic, and your healer shouldn't be rocking a broadsword with heavy armor. It just doesn't feel right. Granted, I can understand the concept that humans are capable of learning, but at the same time, I like the idea that people are different, have different backgrounds and are innately different.

    I also agree, Rowan, that the graphics of late have been way too similar. I understand that the artists and designers are probably the same, but at the same time, I want a different look and a different looking world each time I play it. Yes, I understand that trees are trees and mountains are mountains, but I want to see worlds that don't resemble each other as much. I don't care so much that the monsters and enemies are relatively the same; that's to be expected in a series, but give me more diversity in my characters and architecture. Also, stop with the androgynous characters and making people so pretty, or the cliche scarred warrior. Not everyone is a model.

    Another problem I've had since forever, is the sequels. Yes, I understand that people want to know what happens to characters after the story, but at the same time, sometimes it's better to just leave it be. FFVII is my biggest pet peeve here. I felt that the game ended beautifully on its own. There didn't need to be a movie. There didn't need to be a prequel, introducing new characters to further elaborate on a single cutscene in the original game. However, these things were created to elaborate on a universe that was pretty much perfect on its own. They could have been working on new and original games and ideas, maybe new systems. And on top of it all, there are now continuity errors in the original game because of things that happened in the prequel. FFX-2 is another story, and seemed like it had no place in that universe, and while I own FFXIII-2, I haven't played it. Don't really care to since it also seems very meh.

    I also want a return to the roots, and less melodrama and more of a lighthearted feeling game without all of the feelings of impending doom. Sure, there's plenty of doom to go around, but there are also moments of comic relief in the older games, whether it be through character actions or words. There's no more finding the humor in the horrible world, it's all "we have to be so serious and accomplish the mission." Hell, even Gears of War, despite its melancholy feel had moments that cracked me up. They need a little wacky to break up the emo. FFXIII and FFXII were particularly notorious with this. I felt like everyone was so miserable or just working on pigeonholing their character into a trope, between Snow who was pretty much a goon, who had to be a knight because thats what knights do and Vanille who was just so perky because you need a perky girl. Yes, Selphie was equally perky, but she had more redeeming qualities and seemed more real.

    Maybe that's what it is too, I don't feel that the characters have been as relate-able. I haven't really been engrossed with what happens to the characters, other than hating their personalities, or voices. I don't think the characters have particularly redeeming qualities that outweigh their melodramatic mood or their own shortcomings. Even guys in the older games, like Kefka, was a giant douche and an asshole, but there is enough to like about him where you could understand where he was coming from. Even Sephiroth, Seifer, and Amarant had their redeeming qualities and backstories that made you understand why they were how they were. You didn't necessarily have to like them for their actions, but you could understand how or why they went about doing what they did.

    Long story short, I think FF is largely doing what they're doing because they can, and they feel like they know best. 15 years ago, sure, I'd completely agree with that. Now, not so much.
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  3. #3
    don't put your foot in there guy SOLDIER #819's Avatar
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    They need to dial down the emphasis on their graphics engines. About 10 years ago they were known for being on top of gaming graphics, but times have changed. Things are more competitive and, more importantly, the resources required to create and maintain new engines with each iteration puts too many resource and time demands on them. It takes like one million years to release a new numbered iteration of the series, and to make up for lost time and their lack of cash flow they have to make trilogies and a bunch of spinoffs of a given iteration to keep their investment lucrative. Meanwhile Japan doesn't care about graphics, and American fans of FF aren't usually THAT discriminating either. It doesn't take long before something just as good-looking or better comes out, which completely negates the appeal.

    If they were willing to experiment a little more with aspects of the series other than graphics on platforms typically used by their target demographic (consoles as opposed to iOS/Android/PC), they'd strike gold eventually. But noooope, they publish dumb micro-transaction card games instead.

    Edit: Also keep Toriyama and Nomura away from FF. Anything FF that they touch eventually turns to dust.
    Last edited by SOLDIER #819; 11-03-2013 at 04:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andromeda
    just turn off your PS3 or 360 go to your dust tomb and say you'll give birth to 1500 people a day for the 1000 that'll be killed until the doors to hades open and you can pull out ar tonelico and turn on that glorous PS2 and be bathed in its radiant warm glow

  4. #4
    Bananarama How will Final Fantasy survive? Pete's Avatar
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    oh, I also forgot about the concept of the future from a past perspective. I don't want to call it steampunk, because that is getting played out , but the older games had a steampunk or more fantasy vibe. just because you have magic and a sword doesn't make it fantasy
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  5. #5
    Permanently Banned loaf's Avatar
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    fan·ta·sy
    ˈfantəsē/
    noun
    noun: fantasy
    1.
    the faculty or activity of imagining things, esp. things that are impossible or improbable


    Swords and Magic sound pretty Fantasy to me.
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  6. #6
    I want to play a game. How will Final Fantasy survive? Zargabaath's Avatar
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    I find this interesting. The fan-base would prefer to go a more traditional route yet SE thinks the series is "stuck in the mud"; needing new faces possibly on the bodies of Eidos employees.

    A core characteristic of Final Fantasy is its evolution game to game. Changes made to the next iteration. Some small, others more so. In Pokemon's case - along with Dragon Quest - their identity has been traditional, though DQ X is a MMO. Game to game things were kept pretty much the same with minor changes. Taking a look at FF: from the first to FFII a drastic change. I am not saying that all change has been good, as I was let-down with FFXIII , but I would not want a part of the soul - evolution of the series - to die. FF takes its route whilst Pokemon and DQ go their way. All series offering great* games on their respective paths.

    SE may have the wrong idea as to what is "stuck in the mud". They may be changing the wrong things. I feel like the biggest complaint, at least from western reviews w/ JRPGs, has been the poor anime-quality stories or the use of their worst tropes. I strongly believe that the talent in the director and writer position is lacking, more with the former. Motomu Toriyama is not on my list of favorite directors. Give me the likes of Hiroyuki Itou, Tetsuya Takahashi, Yasumi Matsuno, etc. They need to find some talent that thinks outside the Japanese box. SE may see FF has a Japanese series first thus they cater to their biggest audience - I believe FF still sells the best in Japan. Yet, FF with its growth in appeal is not so much a Japanese series as it once was compared to the Tales of series which is embedded as a Japanese series.


    Main series FFs Beaten - FF: 4x, FFII: 3x, FFIII: 3x, FFIV: 3x, FFV: 3x, FFVI: 4x, FFVII: 5x, FFVIII: 5x, FFIX: 3x, FFX: 4x, FFXII: 3x, FFXIII: 2x, FFXV: 2x

  7. #7
    Permanently Banned loaf's Avatar
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    FF was generally the same for 10+ years, it did minor changes and a new look. They felt that change was needed since I'm sure they felt it was lacking still. It's like musicians, musicians want to change because they want to see what they can create. Fans get pissed that some new album isn't like said 2 other albums, I hope it's not the same because that would suck. If you can't accept change then I feel you aren't a true fan.
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  8. #8
    Bananarama How will Final Fantasy survive? Pete's Avatar
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    Loaf, at the same time, look at practically every Zelda and Pokemon game. They've all been more or less the same cookie cutter thing, with slightly better graphics, or new characters/ items each time. Granted, I don't want the same FF game in each installment, but I also don't want them to be on the path they are, with heavily emo overtones all over the place. It's just been melodrama and so many quasi high school tropes just thrown in. I get it, that the series has to change, but at the same time, I don't agree with the way it's changing. I don't think that doesn't make me a fan of the series. Hell, I love the Mets, even though they suck. I just hope that changes can be made to make me want to play future games.

    My biggest problem with FF is that I honestly think that it's trying to throw in too much political discourse. I feel like FFXII was a very thinly veiled concept of a country invading another for the sake of resources. I want less of games trying to be modern, or allegories to modern things, but rather timeless stories. I found it problematic when I was able to look at FF12 as an allegory to the war in Iraq. You can have games based on warring nations, sure, but I don't necessarily want them to hit so close to home. Perhaps it wasn't a necessarily veiled attack, but it felt like it was.

    Long story short, I would really prefer the more lighthearted games of the past, namely the ones numbered up to 9. I also miss the concepts of ghosts and haunted forests, trains, etc. I'm not a big fan of futuristic allegories to current wars, or hell, even ways of doing things like FF8, which was futuristic, but also had a lot of older elements, even if critics called it just a love story,
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  9. #9
    Permanently Banned loaf's Avatar
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    Have you played the Pokemon games since GBA era? They changed A LOT of their game. It just wasn't that noticed, they change up what is effective to other types every game. Obviously water owns fire is still there but like in Pokemon X and Y...they do major changes in every pokemon.

    As for Zelda? I've heard nothing but bad reviews since Twilight Princess, tells me they are doing something wrong. If I enjoyed the Water Temple, they are doing something wrong. Zelda is about the changes in the way you play and explore, new dungeons and new puzzles, Zelda is a puzzle adventure game in my book. It's about the dungeons, they change those every game as well.
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  10. #10
    Bananarama How will Final Fantasy survive? Pete's Avatar
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    To be fair, I haven't played pokemon since original blue, but from what I've heard, they've added a shit ton more pokemon and created new evolutions and revamped the graphics. Otherwise, it's the same deal. Sure, you add in new types of pokemon and create new strengths and weaknesses, but it's just like adding new elements to rock paper scissor.

    As for Zelda, just because there is a water dungeon, why does there ALWAYS have to be one? Yes, I know the games are successful, but they've become nothing but carbon copies, grahpics wise. Honestly, I wouldn't even be mad if they took the same schematic from an old dungeon and recycled it into a new type of element or locale. Its always wind or earth or water or fire. I say screw the elements an just make pure dungeons that rely on ass kicking and thinking skills, not just "oh, I got the fire arrow so now I can go through that ice"
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  11. #11
    Permanently Banned loaf's Avatar
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    I've never complained a Zelda level, just pointing that out. Edit: I will complain about Twilight Princess. Every dungeon sucked, WAY too easy. And the bosses? A JOKE.

    Pokemon has done a lot of changes, it's there. But you see, balancing out the strengths and weaknesses is the major change in the game. You have to revamp your entire play strategy. They added Faerie type which owns Dragon type, now people will watch out what they use. They switched Dark from being Super Effective from Steel now. They do this to make it new every new game. If it was the same strengths and weaknesses then what's the point of adding new pokemon let alone a new pokemon game, it's just a new look.

    FF1 - Pick Class
    FF2 - Create Class
    FF3 - Changing Jobs
    FF4 - Set jobs
    FF5 - Changing Jobs (more jobs, more customizing)
    FF6 - Customizing your characters to whatever you want, stats and everything through Espers.
    FF7 - Materia
    FF8 - Junctions
    FF9 - Set Classes with Ability system
    FF10 - Sphere Grid
    FF11 - MMO
    FF12 - License Board
    FF13 - CP Board

    They did major changes to their game that involved their combat system. They gave it a new look with a new system...they've always done that. It brings me back to

    IT'S NOT LIKE FF7 WTF IT SUCKS

    This is how I feel about almost everyone who says 12 and 13 are garbage games.
    Last edited by loaf; 11-06-2013 at 06:00 PM.
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  12. #12
    Bananarama How will Final Fantasy survive? Pete's Avatar
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    Well, my only problem with how you describe 10-13 is that they're all painfully similar. Granted in 7 and 8 you could alter character stats though materia or junctioning, but eventually each character was different and had different stats. Hell, even the more potent materia in 7 had drawbacks to health or strength, allowing you some more strategy.

    That's just another of my pet peeves though. I like the idea of maybe a level cap or grid cap, as opposed to the concept of just levelling up and learning the other characters skills and abilities. In theory, yes, I can get how a group of people fighting together would share tips and try to teach teach other survival skills, to benefit the party, but in a videogame, it just helps to rob characters of their individuality.

    If you think of Omnislash, Highwind, Jump or Blitz, you immediately know who the character is. You don't remember who had a high critical strike %, or who had more MDef attributes.
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  13. #13
    Permanently Banned loaf's Avatar
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    You realize every Final Fantasy since FF6 allows you to customize the stats and make everyone the same thing? 6 has the espers do it, 7 has the sources (sources allow permanent, not materia), 8 has devour (devour allows permanent, not junctioning), 9 has the items that improve your stats permanently when you level up. FF10 let you make everyone have max stats. In a sense, 9 was the only one that has diversity. 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13 everyone ends up being the same thing. Permanently stat change, same shit since 6 done a different way. 9 is literally the only one out of those that is everyone does their own thing. In 12 you make roles, even if everyone is the same you give them different roles. In 10 everyone can heal, so? You make someone a healer and the others their own role. In 7 you can make everyone the same thing. 8 you can too. No joke 9 is the only one out of what you're telling me is how you want it.

    Just in FF7 and 8 you had to put time into making it that. Not many people wanted to go that hardcore into those games. And in FF9 you can only permanently change their stats in Disc 4, same goes for 8 (disc 3 though)
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  14. #14
    Bananarama How will Final Fantasy survive? Pete's Avatar
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    I get what you're saying, but it took A LOT more effort to get to those points. In X-XIII, I felt that I was already in other people's areas when I wasn't even done with the majority of the story. I'd much rather have to grind like hell to get my own characters ultimate skills before a final battle than grinding like hell to complete everyone's grids for every other character.

    In IX, yes, you can have a lot of high stats, but you also have a relatively locked character set. I don't mind equipping items to characters to make sure they're all immune to poison, or blindness, etc. I don't like the idea of having certain characters, who seem to be billed in the game as one thing, learning every skill under the sun.

    I guess on one hand, I want more character tree options and less "lets all be super powerful with every skill possible." Maybe taking an idea from Mass Effect, Dragon Age, or Skyrim, and applying it to each character. Like, a mage will never have a physical attack as strong as a warrior, but the warrior can't ever use magic. Then, maybe have your options branch out from there, without being able to completely max out your tree or anyone elses.

    Kinda like a slightly more specialized Skyrim skill tree, where each character can attribute points into their own skills, as opposed to one guy being able to potentially spread everything out. You'd still have the options to customize everything. Hell, you could even bring in the concept of licenses from FFXII, and make it like "oh, you've mastered this particular attack or weapon, now you can start training on this more powerful one", then throw in things like mastery bonuses for maxing out certain weapons or armor, where the bonuses are different and potentially tactically useful.

    I'm just spitballing to come up with ideas that are both more customized and also somewhat more character and class restrictive. Mages shouldn't be able to rock heavy armor and use a warhammer
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    Certified tech, come at me! How will Final Fantasy survive? SuperSabin's Avatar
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    I would like to give my input on how Square should handle the FF series. Before they even work on one, they should take a look back at the other games they did, how they evolved the games, what changes they've taken in, what they left out. While I'm on the subject of what they have done, I am seeing kind of a pattern they have with their games. Its almost as if they took sound effects, graphics, etc that they used in games, say FFIV for example, and implemented some them into another game like Romancing Saga 1 for the SNES.

    I also have noticed this too with Final Fantasy VII, I'm pretty sure I heard some sound effects that sounded like they came from Chrono Trigger when you get certain items DOUBLE EDIT: I know how to compare the sound effects now, the sound getting the guard's keys is very similar to the sound on CT like when you get the Jet Bike Key that's what I meant, and I think they re-used their falling sound effect that was in Super Mario RPG. Lastly, I am also sure that some of the game elements are similar to FFVI in a way - the way you control the airship, a huge monster that flies around the world, wind effects, character backgrounds, etc.

    If Square wants to preserve future Final Fantasy games, they need to take what recurring themes and settings they have used in past FFs - give each game a unique setting. Each character should have a decent backstory that is relevant to the main plot, the main plot needs to be something that draws the player in wanting to know what happens next, EDIT: focus the plot on one area at a time without jumping back and forth out of order, creative battle systems to experiment with character growth, memorable soundtrack, detailed dungeons, towns to wander around in, treasure, hidden pathways to hidden areas, sidequests that give out good rewards after completing them.
    Last edited by SuperSabin; 11-11-2013 at 09:20 PM.
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