Reply With QuoteI respectfully refute this statement. May god be with you.Originally Posted by mariosmentor
Ugh, so many people, all of them hellbent on convincing me there can be no timeline whatsoever. Well, now you've done it. I didn't know a lot about the series, and that's why my timeline's falling apart. The link here will send you to a timeline theory I made about another video game franchise that I'm more familiar with.
Dragon Quest Timeline Theory! - General Dragon Quest/Dragon Warrior - Dragon's Den Community
If you want a more well thought out timeline theory for Final Fantasy, check this link.
The Final Fantasy Timeline Theory
Until I become more familiar with the series, I am not logging back on to this forum. By the way......DEATH TO FF7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I respectfully refute this statement. May god be with you.
Last edited by Rowan; 10-06-2014 at 08:05 PM.
That is unnecessary Rowan, however much you disagree you don't need to be saying that.
I'm sorry you feel that way, mariosmentor. This is a forum so debate and discussions are going to happen. Especially when you provide something that is outside of the commonly accepted conventions, facts or even controversial. General acceptance by the fandom of FF is that none of the games barring prequels/sequels/spin-offs are connected in any sort of way. So making the claim they are all connected is bound to start discussions to disprove it. It was a debate/discussion so counter arguments will be brought up.
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<sigh> I know I said I wouldn't log back in, but thanks to Andromeda's reassuring words, I decided to examine this topic to clear any misconceptions I might have spawned. For starters, here's some standards of validity that I forgot to add in the first post:
1) If someone in the game says it happened, it happened exactly that way unless overruled by rule 2. Remakes count as well.
2) In-game events overrule any legends that can be considered a retelling corrupted by generations of repetition.
3) Any phrasing of "[number] years ago" is seen as entirely accurate unless overruled by rule 4
4) Anything that happened "[multiple of 100] years ago" can be shifted slightly to accommodate events of other games.
5) Considering that potentially world-changing forces are involved in approximately every game, geography will not be taken into account.
6) Shared names are usually, but not always, indicative of the holders being the same entity. I will decide when this applies.
Now that we have that out of the way, here's my connections between III, XI, XIV, and IX:
The Shadow Lord's origin story in XI says that his mortal form Raogrimm had a forbidden love affair with a woman named Cornelia, who sacrificed herself to save him from a fatal attack by his companion Ulrich, in the process being impaled on Ulrich's sword. This likely serves as the inspiration for the scene of "I Want to Be Your Canary" that we see in IX.
Doga's Artifact and Une's Mirror show up in the Treno Auction House, referring to two major characters from III. The words on the items, "We seek magic as a way of life. We create dreams after life." and "The body may perish, but the spirit lives on." are quotes from Doga and Unei, respectively, placing III firmly before XI and IX.
In XIV, Shantotto is alluded to constantly in all things relevant to black magic, portraying her as a legendary Black Mage. The chocobo designs in both XI and XIV are extremely similar, and various monsters follow suit with this connection. The Crystal Tower in XIV is also not only a carbon copy of the tower in III, but also home to bosses from that same game. Whether they are illusions, or sentient memories (like Tom Riddle in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets), they still bear strong evidence that III takes place before XIV.
And now, I'll explain a personal theory that (somewhat) explains Fabula Nova Crystallis' placement. Essentially, most of the final bosses in each game are the same entity. That entity.........is the Emperor from II. Why? Think of it this way: near the end of II, the Emperor became the Lord of Hell, and was defeated by Firion and Co., but last I checked, when you become the Lord of Hell, you are given,
1) A hideous new form,
2) Unimaginable power, and
3) IMMORTALITY.
Firion and Co. never destroyed him, they merely weakened him for the time being. Meanwhile, the Emperor's good side has become the Lord of Heaven, and the rest of the series becomes like clockwork: Emperor Pandemonium tries to destroy the world under a new alias, while Emperor Arubboth uses this opportunity to seal his darker half by placing a barrier over the area he's taking over. That is, until the end of VI. With magic disappearing from the world, people have begun using mako energy again, but this time, either no one tries to stop it, or every attempt fails. Essentially, the world dies. Without a world to rule, Emperor Pandemonium is now in a rut. Without a world to protect, Emperor Arubboth has technically won the war, but at what cost? After eons of thinking, Emperor Pandemonium hatches a brilliant idea: create a new world. Using the name Bhunivelze, he creates Pulse, and divides himself into various entities to carry out certain tasks (because maintaining a world is harder than creating one). Emperor Arubboth becomes aware of this, and takes on the name Mwynn, continuing the endless war. The story of Mwynn being Bhunivelze's mother could just be fabrication by repetition. Fast forward to the end of Lightning Returns. The souls of Pulse find a new home, but they didn't come alone. The crystals from the rest of the series, the ones created by the Creator, the same crystals that oddly appear in the most convenient places whenever they're needed, have resurfaced. The souls of Pulse, eventually becoming power-hungry, began fighting each other senselessly over possession over the crystals. In order to prevent another mass extinction, the crystals begin a cycle of war, cleansing the warriors' memories and terraforming the world after each cycle. Cue the events of Type-0. Meanwhile, everything is going according to Emperor Pandemonium's plan. Creating Pulse, choosing Lightning as his champion, finding a new home for the souls of Pulse, it was all a part of drawing out the crystals, causing the cycle of war, and watching as the prolonged cycle begins to take its toll. One by one, the crystals begin shattering, until there is only one left. Cue the events of XV. The fate of the world is literally in the hands of a prince named Noctis Lucis Caelum. If he fails, the final crystal will be destroyed, Emperor Pandemonium will win the war, and the world will be shrouded in eternal darkness..................
You've made it difficult to have any further debate as there is no factual data to say your theory is accurate or not since you're saying that most key enemies in all of the games just is the same person faking a new identity.
So I have a different question for you. Is this purely an exercise for you or do you believe that from the beginning that Square has been intentionally creating all of their games for FF on a timeline?
Since my FFIII knowledge is not extensive, this is more a clarifying question. What's the origin of the Crystal Tower in III and what's the purpose of the tower?
It's been a bit, but I thought Dagger was improvising with play when she got stabbed. I don't recall that being part of the actual play. Though I sot of got the impression that the troupe liked to do the play differently each time. Since I think the one at the end plays out a little differently than the one at the start.
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@Andromeda I personally believe that while Square intended each game to be independent of each other, they made enough connections to keep bored, observant fans busy between releases. I'm pretty much doing this for the fun of it, since I've already done so with Dragon Quest and Super Mario. As for the tower in III, Xande used it as a hideout after flooding the world. I never talked to Doga and Unei much when they were in my party, so I'm not sure if Xande or someone else built the tower, if that was brought up at all.
The lore of XIV's Crystal Tower gets a little complicated. Xande was the founding Emperor of the Allagan Empire, an ancient highly technologically advanced civilization. After he died the Allagan Empire flourished for time, but ended up starting to fall into decay. I believe it was Amon, a scientist that sought to revive the glory of the Allagan's golden era and thus brought Xande back. Xande's goal when alive was conquering the world and sought to do this when revived. His revival did bring about the return of strength to the Empire, but in his efforts to control all things he built the Crystal Tower along with Dalamun and trapped Bahamut within the moon Dalamun. The Crystal Towers purpose was to harness solar energy with using Bahamut's great power as a control in order for him to take advantage of the power of darkness. However, once he came in contact with the darkness he ended up wishing to bring darkness upon the whole world and sought to do that, which lead to the down fall of the Allagan Empire. The Crystal Tower was sealed away and buried in the earth until Bahamut was released from his prison in Dalamun. The megaflare he released caused vast destruction across the land and allowed the Crystal Tower to resurface. Doga and Unei reveal themselves to be clones of royal Allagan family, I don't remember if they're clones of Xande or not, but they have their sole purpose to seal the Crystal Tower back up and prevent the Cloud of Darkness from infecting the world which Xande was unable to achieve through his contract the last time. Most if not all of the bosses in the Crystal Tower are Allagan heroes modified and locked way in the Crystal Tower made to guard it and be Xande's personal guard.
Some of the details might be a little out of order, it's been a bit since I watched the cutscene that explained all of this. The creation of the Crystal Tower during the Allagan's time was thousands of years from the current present. But it is fact that the Crystal Tower was built by Allagan hands with an intended design for harnessing energy. I think it was originally just a power source, but Xande re-purposed it for his plans after contracting with the Cloud of Darkness.
Avatars and Primals though do have some differing history between XI and XIV. I'll have to re-read my XI history, but the Avatars in XI have extensive histories and I believe a few them were actual humans that Altana found to be pure beings worthy of being granted low level god status as Avatars. While Primals are just beings of pure energy given form through prayer and suffering. When not in solid form they are just consciousness of great power that exists within an alternate dimension.
Though Zodiark is going to be making a possible appearance soon in XIV as he is the one true god of the Ascians, who are trying to revive him. A nod to XII. And there is the Zodiac Brave quest line another Ivalice nod in the form of our Relic Weapons. And the Gold Saucer will be arriving soon as promised which comes along with Triple Triad. And old friends Ultros and Typhon are joining the game this month.
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@Andromeda Ooh, lots of backstory. I should've provided more info regarding III. It's not too late, I guess. Xande was one of the three students to Noah, the greatest magus to have ever lived, the other two being Doga and Unei. When Noah died, Doga received extensive knowledge in the field of magic, Unei received power over the Dream World, and Xande received..........mortality. Think of it this way: You're hundreds of years old, you're studying magic, and life couldn't get any better. Then, all of a sudden, the teacher who's been like a father to you, in his deathbed, tells you, "You're gonna die in a few years." That'd be earth-shattering. Anyway, Xande was so terrified about dying, that he eventually lost it, and drained the Earth and Water Crystals of their power, causing an imbalance between light and dark. He holed up in the Crystal Tower, where the imbalance was at its strongest, and froze time to stop his aging. When the Warriors of Light eventually killed him, the Cloud of Darkness comes in and reveals that she was pulling his strings the whole time.
Linking Xande's backstories seems fairly easy. While Xande was still immortal, he probably met a few people who started a "Xande Cult," which later evolved into the Allagan Empire. After receiving mortality, Xande, after not seeing the cultists/empire for a while, looks to them for help, but since it had been so long, they likely thought he had died. It's likely that at the same time, a scientist named Amon was studying the field of cloning. That coincidence alone would be enough to make people think he revived Xande. They would then build the Crystal Tower to harness Darkness as a way to upset the balance between light and dark, but when it wasn't enough, Xande discovered the Red Moon from IV, and that Bahamut was still living there. The cultists/empire probably thought he created the Red Moon, since they've known him to have magical abilities. When Bahamut was released, his megaflare was what most likely created the Floating Continent in III (the perfect way to explain it, since in III's backstory, it's just simply there of all places). Xande contracting with the Cloud of Darkness is merely saying that he knew CoD was calling the shots, because he made that deal to begin with. Anything I'm missing?
Well I have 2 questions.
1.Why death to FF7?
2.How does Final Fantasy Theatreryhthm fit into all of this?
@Rowan 1) My first time playing FF7 was a bad experience.
2) Theatrhythm's just a rhythm game. How could it fit into anything?
Theatrythm has a story. Why would it be excluded? How does ergiez fit into this
@Rowan Whatever story it did have was a rehash of Dissidia. It's not canon, simple as that. It's merely fanservice, and I should know. I have both Theatrhythm games.
Interesting you mention canon when literally no FF besides ones with direct sequels have anything to do with each other. Nice references though.
@Rowan Gah, you know what I mean! Theatrhythm just doesn't fit in this timeline!!!!!
Andro went into some small detail about this before, but is there any other connection to the ff7 world and spira(ffx) other than Shinra? Because I remember reading somewhere 'official' that the two worlds are closely connected.
@Rowan Sheesh, this bit again? Andromeda hasn't reposted yet, so I'm guessing my Xande theory is solid enough for her?
Until SE publishes a Series Ultimania, this theory is just a stoners night out.
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I haven't posted again because I'm working 60 hours a week right now, so I get home late. So I can't reply quickly.
Anyway, one problem is that the Bahamut waking up was 5 years ago to present. So he wouldn't have been able to create the Floating Continent in III from doing that.
And it is actually proven through the Binding Coil of Bahamut that the Allagan did in fact create through science/technology the moon Dalamun, so it's not magic or rumor. It is real and something that is core to the Lore of both the Crystal Tower and the Binding Core of Bahamut.
Doga and Unei both admit personally to the player that they are clones of the royal family, as I said I can't remember if they said they were clones of Xande or just the last line the Allagan royal family. But this is verbally stated to the player by themselves. All the lore I explained was stated by Doga and Unei, since they were created for the sole purpose of stopping Xande and sealing the Crystal Tower back up. And Amon did revive Xande after he died, what you fight is the sealed away revived Xande that Amon created.
The Crystal Tower's stated purpose was harnessing energy first and then later to become the link to the World of Darkness where Xande would flood the world with Darkness and bring it back to the Void.
Rowan, the only link stated in the game between VII and X that I know of is the bonus scene with Shinra looking at the power found in the Farplane. If there are other connections, they were not stated the game, but possible external supplemental material.
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@Andromeda Okay, so no FF4 moon involved. Sounds fair enough. So.......what if there were TWO Xandes? Perhaps Amon did in fact create a Xande clone, at around the same time the real Xande returned. The original was eventually defeated, while the clone lived on. The tower was likely being used for energy before Xande showed up, with the whole imbalance of darkness thing being a modification on his part. That just leaves Bahamut and Dalamun. Remember the summon Bahamut Fury? Perhaps that was what was sealed in Dalamun, since in III, Bahamut is living in the floating continent.
I'm not familiar with a Bahamut Fury. Bahamut is an Elder Primal in XIV ranked along side Midgarsomr and Odin, since all of the Primals are linked with the Beastman, there are no other known Primals.
Xande did die though it's in the Allagan history as explained by Doga and Unei. They have a very accurate history of the Allagan civilization due to their status as having been created by said civilization.
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@Andromeda Bahamut Fury was an alternate form of Bahamut's that appeared in Crisis Core. In more ways than one, Bahamut Fury was more powerful than the original. Also, did Doga and Unei WITNESS Xande's death? No, they didn't, as they're clones who were created later on. They're merely relaying what they were told regarding events that happened hundreds, maybe even thousands, of years ago. Some details are bound to be altered a bit. Check my standards of validity.
... Dude, I'ma say it one last time, so I can say I was crystal clear, leaving you to own it.
Final Fantasy 1-10, have absolutely no connections, what-so-ever, beyond what was given to us in Dissidia (they are all SEPERATE UNIVERSES, coexisting parallel to one and other...)
Hironobu Sakaguchi, the man who CREATED Final Fantasy, and has had a major hand in everything baring the name, Final Fantasy, (furthermore the Square-Enix people) has never, and likely will never go on record to say that these worlds are connected in any way. Would you like to know why Mr. Sakaguchi has never said anything even remotely close to anything along the lines of what we're discussing?
Because it's not a thing... Final Fantasy's token feature for over 20 years was that EACH GAME IS A NEW WORLD, with new characters.
You need to let go... You're like the maverick scientist who's trying to prove that gravity doesn't exist... Brave, bold, pioneering, but tragically futile.
@OutlawTorn Haters gonna hate.
I'm not hating on you... I'm defending the truth... Don't take this personally, it's about the games and the truth, not you.
@OutlawTorn Yeah, and you're starting to troll me. If you don't like the concept of a timeline theory, then don't even look at the topic!
He's not trolling you at all.
He simply provided you his reason as to why he thinks your Theory is false. As we all have. Just because nobody believes you doesn't mean you have to call him or any of us trolls.
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But your rule 2 says that in-game events have to have happened to over rule something that is stated as your exception to rule 1. Unless I'm mistaken, there's no in-game event that says Xande was cloned by Amon in FFIII. I haven't finished FFIII yet, but is there anything that happens with Xande in III that would fit with that? Because you said he was given morality and ran to the Crystal Tower making plans to survive. But none of those events happen in-game right? They're explained to the player after they've already happened, correct? It's pretty much the same thing for XIV. Neither were present at it.
FFVII has like five Bahamuts now. >< No other game in the series I think has more than one Bahamut. But at least as of current, XIV only has one Bahamut for now. Which I thought you said all summons were pretty much the same one through each game from one of your previous posts. So Bahamut should just be Bahamut. If he was Bahamut Fury they would have called him that.
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FF7 has three bahamuts. Bahamut, Bahamut NEO and Bahamut ZERO. AC doesn't count.
There are 4 bosses in the final final dungeon of FFIII called Xande's Clones but there's no mention of how they were cloned or who by. They could be some kind of lingering will of Xande, or they could just be a last minute addition to an already difficult dungeon. There's no-one called Amon in the game as far as I know.
In III, at least, the only relation that Doga, Unei and Xande have is that they were students or apprentices to the Great Magus Noah and that they were each granted a 'gift' upon his death or something. I know the gist of III's story but not the finer details.
This isn't me trying to rain on your parade or anything, I'm just trying to answer Andromeda's question the best I can. This only relates to what happens in III's story, not the Crystal Tower part in XIV.
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I was referring to the FFVII series/universe as a whole rather than just the single game. I believe they call the AC Bahamut by some other name just because he couldn't be normal Bahamut for whatever reason.
Amon's the pirate looking guy. Which I was pretty sure a boss in the Crystal Tower for III. XIV took all of the bosses from the Tower and remade them for that version.
Xande Clones certainly complicates matters, clones could mean any number of things, be it literal or more figurative.
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