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Thread: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

  1. #1
    Let darkness overshadow the light.. Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Angel of Iniquity's Avatar
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    Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    Okay, I am making my own video game. I wanted to see how my main antagonist fairs up against Sephy lol

    If my character seems overpowered, there is a story reason lol.

    laonfait

    That is the link to see my Characters background and history, also move list and death

    Actually, I have to explain his death.
    Skeith died when Laons White matter fully matured. White matter negates Dark Matter. The god and goddess, epoch and stell, held Skeith still while Laon, the main character, sacrificed his white matter to kill Skeith.
    If I need to explain more, I will


    Please tell me why Sephiroth would win if you think he will

  2. #2
    Controlling With Fear Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Unlucky Rufus's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    I think your character is unique, but not many things could ever beat Sephiroth. 1 v 1, other than Cloud, and maybe Goku. But thats all. Oh, and He-Man, then again he would probably die quickly in that one. So just Cloud and Goku. yep.
    Last edited by Unlucky Rufus; 10-08-2010 at 06:22 PM.

  3. #3
    Let darkness overshadow the light.. Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Angel of Iniquity's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    LOL!
    Yea, DBZ is a cheat. Do you think Skeith at least show him some threat?

  4. #4
    Controlling With Fear Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Unlucky Rufus's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    Yeah a little, if summed up Skeith's threat to Sephiroth on a scale of 1 to 10, it mite be a 3 or 4.

  5. #5
    Delivering fresh D&D 'brews since 2005 Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith T.G. Oskar's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    Quote Originally Posted by o0Odin0o View Post
    Okay, I am making my own video game. I wanted to see how my main antagonist fairs up against Sephy lol

    [...]

    Please tell me why Sephiroth would win if you think he will
    No one would win because you need to define one character upon the world of the other, and that would determine the rules of the game.

    Skeith is quite definitely a character who's meant to be overpowered, but has no believable story and no concept of mechanics to play with. Creating an overpowered yet believable character is a work of art, which requires more than a brief backstory telling why s/he is so awesome. Else, it enters the realm of Mary Sue and you can't beat a MS because you're in the hands of the author.

    Now, while I have my doubts on whether Sephiroth is some sort of canonical, villainous Sue archetype, Skeith most definitely IS a Mary Sue and you can just tell Sephy "welcome to my world" and strip him of innate power and willpower. So as long as you don't define a clear concept of rules in which you can work upon, the answer is unsolvable at best.

    If you define it upon a world with rules such as Final Fantasy VII states them, you'd have to define whether he learns how to use Materia or not, and the range of his weaponry and Limit Breaks. Then, you'd have to realize that, canonically, you'd be looking for a fight against someone who doesn't consider you worthy of fighting against, for the simple reason that his goals lie elsewhere.

    If you define it upon your world, you'll have home advantage. You'll have to explain a good reason why you're drawing Sephiroth from his home world, what purposes does he have there, and what powers he has access to: at best, he has superb swordsmanship and innate telepathical powers as well as other mental powers from his ties to Jenova, not to mention some innate knowledge of magic (although perhaps not the same degree of potential due to conflicting rules about how magic would work in your world). Even then, you'd have an advantage since unless you're meaning to toy with him, you can end the battle in a flash using your super-duper-mega-awesome final move and finish him with one strike. And since you may incur on anticanonical behavior for Sephiroth, you'll just support the idea that Skeith may be a Mary Sue.

    In a neutral plane (say, the battlegrounds in Dissidia), you'd have to define your character once again and why you'd be facing against him in the context of the story, and your character isn't really meant to be created upon the infrastructure of Dissidia. If you were to use a specific set of rules (say, the d20 System or the Storytelling System), you'd have to determine the kind of game you wish to have and create clones of the characters created as per the rules and the best snapshot of them in a specific part of the timeline.

    However, and this is the biggest point; you're incurring on arbitrariness. No matter which plane or ruleset you use, you'll be in control of both characters and unless you're Tetsuya Nomura, Sephiroth won't be acting in canon. The only way you could answer this is if you went to Japan, to the HQ of Square Enix, and ask Nomura that same question. Quite probably he'll ignore you, but perhaps not out of spite (or maybe he will ignore you out of spite ) but because of other reasons (work...maybe). Having said that, the very concept of the arbitrary will determine the outcome, since you're placing a very obviously overpowered character against the fandom just to claim whether he's good or not.

    Forgive me if I sound too blunt, but that's feeding your ego. You can prove whether your character is too powerful (and whether he'd win) or not through a Roleplay Battle with any of our best fighters there, and you can satiate your ego, but certainly not a character whom you'll remove from canon. Just so you don't feel bad; if differing canon is already pretty arbitrary (you'll gravitate towards your favorite characters or favorite series), anything aside from canon is pretty arbitrary anyways.

    So, in a nutshell: "Answer hazy, don't try again".
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  6. #6
    Let darkness overshadow the light.. Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Angel of Iniquity's Avatar
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    LOL

    I kinda didn't understand the last answer.
    I only gave a brief background on Skeith because it was taking to long anyways.
    In my universe, I guess you can say allot of things are overpowered, but to the scale that they each seem in the same area.
    Let's see.
    Alright, It's not about ego, I just got curious. I have been working on my game fro about 2 years and I just wanted to see how he would fair against other FF villians and heros.
    He does seem overpowered but I said that Dark matter was the left over components of the god Nyx, who was a god of destruction. The gods in my mythos are really powerful, what a god is supposed to be. And the forms that I showed were the special ending after you defeat a certain hunt.

    Let's place them the universe of eachother with the following rules then

    FF7- no magic, self abilities only. Only swords and abilities learned (limit breaks and such)
    then in my universe- Magic, no swords, no transformations

    Then in an nutral plane where there are no limits on materia use. Think Dissidia like you said

    Oh, in my game, each character has a ptb bar, and every attack uses an amount of atb.
    Exp, 200 atb. Jumps, swings sword, casts thundara, swings sword again.
    Jump- 10 Atb
    Swings sword- 20 atb
    Thundara- 40 Atb
    Swings sword again- 20.

  7. #7
    Death Before Dishonor Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Josh_R's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    First off dude don't triple post mods will warn you for that shit.

    Second Sephiroth would win simply because he is Sephiroth. He is the one of the greatest villians ever.

    Sitting here waiting for Rocky, and Che to notice me!!



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    Controlling With Fear Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Unlucky Rufus's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    Quote Originally Posted by Josh_R View Post
    First off dude don't triple post mods will warn you for that shit.

    Second Sephiroth would win simply because he is Sephiroth. He is the one of the greatest villians ever.
    agreed.

  9. #9
    Let darkness overshadow the light.. Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Angel of Iniquity's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    Oh, didn't know about the triple post thingy, sry. I should have just edited the first post.
    Oh and LOL!
    THat is one of the reasons why I posted it in ff7, fanboys for the win.

  10. #10
    Delivering fresh D&D 'brews since 2005 Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith T.G. Oskar's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    Quote Originally Posted by o0Odin0o View Post
    LOL

    I kinda didn't understand the last answer.
    I only gave a brief background on Skeith because it was taking to long anyways.
    In my universe, I guess you can say allot of things are overpowered, but to the scale that they each seem in the same area.
    Let's see.
    Alright, It's not about ego, I just got curious. I have been working on my game fro about 2 years and I just wanted to see how he would fair against other FF villians and heros.
    He does seem overpowered but I said that Dark matter was the left over components of the god Nyx, who was a god of destruction. The gods in my mythos are really powerful, what a god is supposed to be. And the forms that I showed were the special ending after you defeat a certain hunt.
    In the end, despite curiosity, it's still meant to satisfy one's ego. "Curiosity" about how one self-constructed character will fare against a villain with huge popularity (whether he's truly as powerful as intended or not) may seem innocent at first, but if someone says "no, Sephy will win because of X and Y and Z and alpha*", then you'll feel a bit shunned, and if someone says "no, Skeith will win because of beta, gamma, delta and epsilon", then you'll feel a bit shocked to hear that.

    Now, I can understand that you wish to measure the general potential of your character in the mainframe of various Final Fantasy heroes and villains, as they are the most popular "gauge" to measure, but I can solve that pretty easily, and you yourself already answered that question:

    In my universe, I guess you can say allot of things are overpowered, but to the scale that they each seem in the same area.
    Here, you're stating that your universe is in balance with itself, in which the heroes and villains have the same power potential, and that potential is several levels above that of the usual power level in other fantastic worlds. That's natural, since at first someone will go for the "overpowered" and the "epic" without first going for the "character building" (not bashing, but just doing critique). Building a character shouldn't mean just specifically creating him to be badass and world-shattering; it should represent something, and it should have flaws or else it would be unbelievable. It should have an ulterior motive, quirks and traits that both separate him from the masses but tie him to the general populace (unless he was specifically created to be badass, which is not a good flaw in itself).

    Each Final Fantasy character has those same motivations, quirks, traits, flaws and general character concepts that make them all the more interesting, if not to say humane. I still have my reserves to whether Sephiroth could apply because he has been pretty much deified by the masses to be both awesome and unbeatable, but even he has his traits; loss of faith in humanity, megalomania, delusion, a cold and calculating mind that plans for the VERY long term... That makes him an odd kind of villain (IMO, willing to conform when everything is over just to realize there is nothing to earn from waiting that much), but there it is: traits.

    Now, if it were only traits, it would be reasonable: you'd just need to polish him a bit. However, this is what ticked me off a bit...
    He does seem overpowered but I said that Dark matter was the left over components of the god Nyx, who was a god of destruction. The gods in my mythos are really powerful, what a god is supposed to be. And the forms that I showed were the special ending after you defeat a certain hunt.
    Bolded part being important. This is the rough equivalent of saying "Cthulhu is my pet, Nyarly is my homey, Dagon is my Dark Arts teacher and I was raised by Mother Hydra". All four are Elder Gods, things that no human mind is capable of comprehending...for all you know, the only REAL gods in the world of H.P. Lovecraft, and constructions of horror in their own worth. "What a god is supposed to be" is a misnomer: gods are, speaking in literary terms, means to an end (hence, the term "deus ex machina" and its source from Greek Theater), beyond the comprehension of mortals, and very rarely creatures that will dabble in the works of mortals, preferring mortals to work with them. Using a deity in literature is meant to be something above and beyond a character: even animistic spirits, celestial beings and fiends of the Netherworld are movers and shakers, and gods are above and beyond them.

    The statement is contradictory at best: your character is a god, but you don't want to consider it at that. Or at least, that's his final destiny; to become a god. But, quoting good Uncle Ben, "with great power comes great responsibility"; if you absorb the God of Destruction, are you willing to assume his portfolio (aka, promoting and regulating the very concept of destruction and understanding the purpose of destruction in the Universe as a necessary one for the balance of existence), or just add it to your list of "awesome and unbeatable powers"?

    Be it to destroy the world (as Kefka and Exdeath), becoming a god out of a massive ego trip and complex of superiority (Sephiroth), a misguided goal that has been twisted into madness (Zemus/Zeromus), temptation of greater power and how a twisted soul descends further into the midst of horror (Romeo Guildenstern from Vagrant Story), each of them has a mean to gain power other than "become stronger and defeat other even stronger people until I'm stronger than anyone".

    Hence, why I say that there is a concept of arbitrariness in the statement of, for lack of a better phrase, "looking for a fight with Sephiroth". You want to see if your character is at the required level or if it needs a bit more Phlebotinum to win against him, because he's "a worthy opponent". If the concept of arbitrariness were absent and Sephiroth acted in canon, he'd pretty much ignore you out of realizing you're just looking for a fight. Don't ask me; ask the builder of the character to get the answer, I'm just extrapolating from what I perceive he would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by o0Odin0o View Post
    Let's place them the universe of eachother with the following rules then

    FF7- no magic, self abilities only. Only swords and abilities learned (limit breaks and such)
    then in my universe- Magic, no swords, no transformations

    Then in an nutral plane where there are no limits on materia use. Think Dissidia like you said
    Again, look above: there will always be a concept of arbitrariness. If you use the world of FF7 (The Planet), it's Black Materia and Meteor, Supernova (which won't kill you because it's a gravity-based attack of all things, and you control dark matter which is what keeps the Universe in check of all things), and some other abilities against...well, the power of the Elder Gods combined into a neat little package.

    Repeat for "your world" and "Dissidia world".

    I'd just say ask yourself: aside from satiating curiosity, what would make Sephiroth rise from his hiding place in the Lifestream, consider your character a threat to break canon (you are apparently the villain and Sephiroth the hero, of all things) and merit fighting with you. That alone can give you the answer of who would win. And I presume the answer in that case would be a "no-show", since no way in heck he'd be willing to fight someone who essentially has Cthulhu for a pet, Nyarlathotep as a buddy, Dagon as a sensei and Mother Hydra as a nanny.
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  11. #11
    Let darkness overshadow the light.. Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Angel of Iniquity's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    I actually like the depth in which you reply. Let's see.
    Skeiths goal in life is to live peacefully, but his dark matter makes him think off, probably due to the dark matter, which is thought to be Nyx's remnants. Now Skeith wants to recreate the world by turning it all into physical dark matter in then recreating the universe.
    Th natural opposite of the energy absorbing element, dark matter, is White matter.
    My main Character Laon, who is skeiths brother, has white matter in his blood.


    Okay, and I guess a little plot is needed for Sephiroth to be interested in a fight.

    Let us think that Skeith left his planet, due to the threatening power of white Matter. Skeith eventually made his presence on FF7 universe. (don't know how but I'm thinking freeminded)
    Sephiroth is part of the life stream i think. If Skeith is absorbing the Lifestream, or the life of the planet, wouldn't that cause a threat to Sephy.

    Oh and I understand the part of egos after somebody disagrees. Oh and another thing. Skeith, never fully understood the power he held. Like most Villians in general, he had chances to kill the protagonist, but never thought too much of it.

    And the god comment I stated was ignorant lol. I'm gunna try and state it better.
    The gods in my game created the first race of beings known as the celetharians, people of the universe. They had an enourmous amount of power and knowledge compared to average humans. The god who I gave the name dichord(for now), grew jelous of the creator god, because he gave omniscient power to his first son, Genesis Absolute.
    He then raged war against the Celetharians. This caused the gods, Stel and Epoch to anger. They raged war against him. Bla bla bla... After that, Genesis himself destroyed a fraction of the gods who did not follow orders. He then destroyed made it that every birth from a celestarian, would have reduced power.
    He then made a set of new gods to hold order in his universe.
    Nyx also grew jealous(I have whole mythos down, but in spreadsheet format).
    So he raged war with the other gods, mainly being Aurora. The wealenend Celetharians, did not want any take in the war, so they fled ora(the planets name). They moved to the Planets Moon.
    Genesis,growing impatient, quickly massed together a warrior god known as blank(name change later). Blank killed both Nyx and aurora.
    Genesis, seeing such a small population oh people on earth, noticing they all left for the mon, decided to weaken the remaining people on the planet, which later became known as Humans.

    Sounds stupid but, It's hard to post spread sheet stuff in word foramat

    Oh, the gods being as powerful as they wshould be was in direct to God of War, who portrayed the gods weak as hell.
    Last edited by Angel of Iniquity; 10-09-2010 at 06:56 PM. Reason: Didn't want to double post

  12. #12
    The Mad God Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Heartless Angel's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    As Oskar said, it's never really possible to debate crossover canon, since neither canon (in 99.9999% of cases) says anything about itself in relation to the other. That being said, I'm going to try to compare them and debate this anyways, just for shits and giggles.

    Reading through all you have there, I'd really suggest dropping the power of everything a bit, things that overpowered in games tend to make the story a bit boring. Flaws are what make characters interesting, whether they be physical weaknesses, mental instability, bad judgement, general incompetance, etc... Not really relevant to the question, just throing out some constructive criticism there.

    In that scenario you set up for their encounter, Sephiroth's best method of winning would be to not fight. As we've seen in AC, he can take over people that contain enough Jenova cells (such as Kadaj), which after absorbing the lifestream you would, not to mention you'd also be absorbing his will. You'd pretty much be consenting to give up your body and will to Sephiroth without so much as a confrontation. And you wouldn't know it happened until it was too late.

    Assuming yo're both just on some generic battlefield, both with full access to your powers regardless of the laws of the genetic battlefield's world, and finally assuming Seph for some reason actually cared enough to fight at full strength, I'd have to say Seph wins. It took the energy of an entire planet combined with Holy, the will of Aeris and the Planet, and a group of 8 heros distracting him just to keep him from completely obliterating half the planet, even with all of this, Meteor still did massive damage, and Sephiroth's will survived. The guy can decimate cities with raw swordsmanship. As for reflexes, speed, etc... the Physics Police have a seperate file cabinet for his criminal record. An all the outragueos powers we've seen him display isn't even his limit. The creators have said that Sephiroth has yet to fight at his full power. Though I normally strongly discourage this kind of logic in theoretical fight debates, I'll go ahead and throw this out anyways. Minerva is a Goddess, and Zack can kick her ass (in my case with little to no effort), yet still couldn't even make Sephiroth break a sweat. So havingthe power of gods doesn't mean much to FFVII characters. If you care about Dissidia (though not canon), I can rip Chaos apart without taking a hit half the time as Seph, so Gods aren't even a threat to the guy. But that is fairly normal in games, Gods usually are killable, and in some cases even easy to beat, so that source of power jsut wouldn't be enough to take him IMO. But I can't say that with 100% certainty, just because we don't know what Seph's limit actually is, but if I were to bet on the fight, my money would be on the One Winged Angel.

    Now for the last scenario I considered, both fighting in your world. Here I would have to say Sephiroth loses. In your world he has no lifestream or return to or Jenova cells to manipulate, so he's actually mortal. Magic comes from Materia, which is crystalized mako containing the kowledge of the ancients, whom in your world do not exist. Though they don't really explain HOW materia works, I would assume in your world it would not. So Sephiroth would have nothing to rely on but strength and skill, which although great, couldn't compete with the ability to absorb energy, use high classs magics and the strength of Gods. Seph's powers are very much connected to his world, if one goes, so goes the other.
    Last edited by Heartless Angel; 10-18-2010 at 04:19 PM.
    For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting. Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge. Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm. Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear. Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs. Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque. Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm. Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real. Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul. Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming. Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies. Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be. Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger. Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.





  13. #13
    Soup Kitchen Jerk. Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Polk's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    Quote Originally Posted by o0Odin0o View Post
    Okay, I am making my own video game. I wanted to see how my main antagonist fairs up against Sephy lol

    If my character seems overpowered, there is a story reason lol.

    laonfait

    That is the link to see my Characters background and history, also move list and death

    Actually, I have to explain his death.
    Skeith died when Laons White matter fully matured. White matter negates Dark Matter. The god and goddess, epoch and stell, held Skeith still while Laon, the main character, sacrificed his white matter to kill Skeith.
    If I need to explain more, I will


    Please tell me why Sephiroth would win if you think he will
    Is your name Keith, by any chance? This will work a lot more for me if this is some sort of weird self-insertion game or fan fiction.
    Let's go into the "archives" in "Washington D.C." and find out how people "masturbated" in the "roaring 20's."

    Crao Porr Cock8. Bitch.

  14. #14
    Let darkness overshadow the light.. Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Angel of Iniquity's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    LOL!
    No, my name is Justin haha

    And yea, one person in a different universe would mean destruction haha
    I don't even know why I put this question up haha. I didn't finish his full story and he sounded to omnipotent...o.o

    Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...

  15. #15

    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    sephiroth vs my character (who is my name)

    Lisa turns chaos and kills sephiroth by casting death at him

    orrr shud i just write his name in the death note? XD

  16. #16
    The Mad God Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Heartless Angel's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    Everyone knows bosses are immune to death.
    For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting. Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge. Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm. Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear. Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs. Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque. Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm. Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real. Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul. Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming. Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies. Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be. Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger. Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.





  17. #17

    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    ok ok ok i know... but i can make him die just by giving him a poisoned appled <3

  18. #18
    Registered User Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    Originally Posted by Heartless Angel
    Everyone knows bosses are immune to death.
    Not necessarily all bosses are immune...

    SPOILER!!:
    When Orphan is in his final form, he's very susceptible to Death when he's staggered.


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  19. #19
    The Mad God Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Heartless Angel's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    Alright, all GOOD bosses if you wanna be picky lol.
    For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting. Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge. Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm. Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear. Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs. Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque. Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm. Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real. Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul. Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming. Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies. Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be. Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger. Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.





  20. #20
    Let darkness overshadow the light.. Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Angel of Iniquity's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    LOL!
    And most GOOD bosses are immune to status effects...
    That gives me and idea...
    *makes new thread on the difference between a good boss and a bad boss*

    Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...

  21. #21
    Controlling With Fear Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Unlucky Rufus's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    Come to think of it, i kinda wish i could cast status effects on most bosses. Mini-Sephiroth anyone?


    -Jk, it would make that battle very much not-epic.

  22. #22
    Delivering fresh D&D 'brews since 2005 Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith T.G. Oskar's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    Blame that on the binary effect of Save or Die spells.

    I know I'm using foreign terminology, but here it goes: in a very specific tabletop, all characters have a trio of defenses against some status effect spells and area attack spells. When a monster uses a spell or effect that works that way, the character must make that "saving throw", or basically running a RNG and adding bonuses to determine the success; the higher that "save", the higher the chances of success against the enemy spell or effect. When translated into console games, that works as percentages: use a RNG between 1-100, the spell has a specific number, if you exceed that number you are safe from the spell.

    (BTW, the "Save or Die" term is used because the quintessential example of this is instant death spells)

    Now, what's that "binary" concept? Well, these spells and effects work only in two ways; either they do, or either they don't. They don't have an intermediate effect, such as having the target take damage if they succeed on the "save" or otherwise resist the effect successfully. Because of this, using a status effect is a gamble per se; either you're successful or you don't. One of the few spells in Final Fantasy that works in a non-binary way is Bio, specifically on Final Fantasy VI; Bio causes non-elemental damage but also the "Poison" status, which means you don't lose that much if you fail. But spells like Death, Break, or even Blind or Stop are binary; either you succeed or you don't.

    Since a final boss is meant to be hard to defeat, they get immunities to pretty much every single binary spell (as in, a spell that either works or fails), which includes most of the status effect spells. Likely, end-game enemies are incredibly resilient and immune to those same status effects, not to mention that spells such as Death or Break are MP-expensive, so they can't be used many times.

    Thus, you end up with the uselessness of binary spells: either you fail automatically because most end-game spells are immune to binary spells, or you expend far too much MP on enemies that are susceptible because they are weak enough to be beaten in one round. It's roughly the same as buffs in the SNES era; they weren't strictly necessary unlike damage spells such as Flare or Meteo or Holy or Ultima. And, since there has been very few methods to understand the algorithms behind binary spells (Death, Break, Stop), the devs at Squeenix have essentially used the same algorithm over and over again.

    Now, this won't work much against some final bosses (barring Chaos being vulnerable to Fear and what Dodie spoilered), but at least it should be something to think about to restore binary status effect spells back to their spot as useful spells. Not to mention that most final bosses should at least be vulnerable to debuffs.

    At least, they should take a page from SaGa Frontier: ridiculously powerful end-game spells, but cast a spell that causes Death or Petrifaction and they fall in one swift blow. But, since the progression system of SaGa is different (think FFII), it's not like you have an unfair advantage anyways.
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  23. #23
    Let darkness overshadow the light.. Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Angel of Iniquity's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    huh, you are smart *laughs*

    Yeh, they try to hold the story build up by not having the last boss weak or dissapointing. But... I wonder why they just can't make it so that they have elemental status efefects...

    Like blizzard might cause slow, or freeze, lightning might cause haste...that would be interesting haha

    Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...

  24. #24
    Delivering fresh D&D 'brews since 2005 Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith T.G. Oskar's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    Quote Originally Posted by o0Odin0o View Post
    huh, you are smart *laughs*

    Yeh, they try to hold the story build up by not having the last boss weak or dissapointing. But... I wonder why they just can't make it so that they have elemental status efefects...

    Like blizzard might cause slow, or freeze, lightning might cause haste...that would be interesting haha
    There are certain attempts in other games to provide that.

    For example: Final Fantasy VI had some Ice-elemental attacks that caused the Frost status, but the status only affected allies (it was like Petrify, but affected only the group IIRC, as only enemies used those attacks). Breath of Fire III had a few attacks and spells that caused certain status effects (Eye Gouge dealt damage and Blindness, Snap caused Defense reduction, Frost caused Ice damage and sleep). Also, in Chrono Cross, all elements were tied to one status effect IIRC; for example, White dealt with Blindness IIRC.

    Nominally, that means you could make some mid-tier spells (tier referring to the -A, -Ra, -Ga and -Ja levels of magic in FF) that have a tied status effect. For example: Fire could cause Confusion, Ice/Blizzard could indeed cause slow, sleep or even Freeze, Bolt/Thunder could cause stun or paralysis. Then, some of the other spells could deal damage: Poison and Bio would be two spells that could deal non-elemental damage, Break would deal Earth damage and cause Petrifaction, perhaps a lesser form of Holy that causes Holy damage and Blindness. However, it would be a bit inimical from the magic system of Final Fantasy, since the system is meant to disregard lower-rung spells in favor of higher-rung spells. Example: in FFVII, once you got summons you rarely used the other spells. In FFVI, it was a magic escalation game where once you got Ultima and Economizer, you simply could use 1 MP Ultimas with no problem (with Quick and Gem Box, you could simply chain Ultima and end any battle, even Kefka, with no problem). In FFVIII, all you need is Aura. Even in FFV, all you really needed was Spellblade, since you could simply enchant the weapons and attack (but that also worked for spells like Drain to heal HP, Osmose/Aspir to heal MP, Death to deal 1-hit KO attacks, and so on) using your Attack power instead of your Magic stat anyways. FFX mostly disregarded the spell system once you got to use the Celestial Weapons anyways. And usually, by the moment you reach -Ga magic spells (Firaga, Blizzaga, Thundaga), you have already disregarded lower spells (unless you wanna cherry tap).

    FFXI did have a slightly good idea, but badly executed: Fire was the single-target spell, while Firaga was the multiple target spell, but they still had degrees (Fire, Fire II, Fire III, Fire IV, and Fire V IIRC), along with Ancient Magic; then again, being an MMO and using the hate mechanic, they can be a threat nonetheless.

    But yeah; why ditch what's not broken? Or...that would be what could be said, except that status effect spells will still be binary nonetheless; either they work, or they don't. And of course, final bosses should be tough, but not laughable (8 or so Ultimas? ONE Knights of the Round? ONE The End Limit Break?). Perhaps if it were sorta like Star Ocean 2 (you want the secret stage? Fine, but the end boss' limiter just screwed to no end) or Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song (so you can fight no-jewel Saruin, or 10-jewel Saruin which is as close as super-endboss as you can get, and you ALREADY have to face a superpowered boss called Jewel Beast which is a pain to behold...). If you want to go with the sidequests for ultimate power, scale the challenge accordingly.

    Also: smart? I'm just a poster in TFF, dude...

    And finally: HOLY THREAD DERAIL, BATMAN!
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  25. #25
    Let darkness overshadow the light.. Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith Angel of Iniquity's Avatar
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    Re: Sephiroth vs made up character? Skeith

    *laughs*
    Huh, so the more I hang around, the more I know lol.
    Wouldn't it be wise to have alternate endings, where the bosses is next to in difficulty, to the last super boss? That way... eh...ya know.

    And I still am wondering what are the points of status effects if using them are pointless.
    Maybe they should increase the difficulty of ROM(randomly occuring monsters) so that it will always be a challenge to win, untill your like 10 levels above, and give slightly less EXP.

    Let's see... list time.

    FF1- never used a status effect, monsters where to easy.
    FF2- Same goes...
    FF3- don't remember
    FF4- Not once again
    FF5- nope... maybe stone once lol
    FF7- never went far
    FF8- Hmm... nope. Aura, that's it, Oh and meltdown
    FF9- 4th disk didn't work
    FFX- never
    FF12- nope again, except when using zodiark
    FF13- don't remember. Maybe death once...or 20 times...o.o

    Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...

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